Great Lakes Cities

[iheartthed]

Can you even find anywhere else in Canada that builds/built stuff like this? This just screams suburban Great Lakes metropolis to me.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/iRtDGr583oCba6Kh6

https://maps.app.goo.gl/JkTJNCsHWtbZuCVM7

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Can you even find anywhere else in Canada that builds/built stuff like this? This just screams suburban Great Lakes metropolis to me.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/iRtDGr583oCba6Kh6

https://maps.app.goo.gl/JkTJNCsHWtbZuCVM7

Neither style is very common in Canada, including greater Toronto if one considers the percentage of total residential highrises. Particularly the first one which would stand out as being a bit unusual. Greater Toronto is mostly just large enough that it has examples of basically everything to some extent. But the second one, if we're just talking brown brick residential highrises, has examples pretty much everywhere in the country that were large enough and growing in the 60-80s time frame. Usually they're wider "slab" style rather than tower style including in the GTA but even greater Halifax has a few in the more towerish format (below).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

But Toronto doesn't have land scarcity, either. I'm not just talking about artificially-imposed scarcity due to the greenbelt. Back in the day when land and housing prices were dirt cheap and local governments didn't care about sprawl, Toronto was building very different stuff than Detroit:

It seems like Canada significantly diverged from the US in this 60s/70s era, the process slowed a bit in the 90s, and now in the 2020s it's even more dramatic. New growth in Toronto is substantially different from any US midwest city, whether we're talking about who is driving the growth (immigrants from distinct source countries), what's built to accommodate them, and how they live. Trump-era politics have created more of a gap because of border friction and trade instability.

Canada is a lot smaller than the US but it's not a small country in absolute terms, whether we're talking about population, economy, or geography. It's a substantial shared domestic market and culture with a lot of its own distinctiveness these days.

I think people who want to compare Toronto and the Midwest in an even semi-rigorous way need to address these sorts of issues.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Usually they're wider "slab" style rather than tower style including in the GTA but even greater Halifax has a few in the more towerish format (below).

This undersells it a bit. Halifax probably has 150-200 highrises now representing a significant portion of the building stock and the style of development is more like Toronto or Vancouver than say Portland ME which is the "twin" American metro. I'm not sure how many highrises Portland has, but I think it's substantially less than 100; Google says 10-12. In Halifax, there are probably dozens of towers of this style scattered around.

[ColDayMan]

Originally Posted by Velvet_Highground

Wisconsin is closer to Michigan than MI is to Ohio in a lot of ways but neither is super close fit. I get where your coming from planners from back in the 60's saw Detroit and Cleveland as an emerging mega region they're close and had similar 20th century culture & experiences. Southern Lower Michigan with the exception of Detroit is pretty well balanced with small to medium sized cities at pretty even intervals and some very agriculture heavy zones. Which frankly sounds very Ohio like to me.

The problem is there really isn't a "very Ohio like" concept, at all. Ohio is generally divided into five mini-states in which, as mrnyc demonstrated, no one knows who the — anyone is. Appalachian Ohio (SE Ohio), Bluegrass Ohio (SW Ohio), Western Reserve (NE Ohio), Firelands (NW Ohio), and Central Ohio are all distinctive regions that have little communication or commonality shared except for some crossover near each other's mini-state borders i.e. Sandusky being shared by NW and NE Ohio. Even "Northern Ohio" is vastly different between NW and NE Ohio. NW Ohio is farmbelt, flat, swampy in parts, white, and loves walleye/boating. NE Ohio is more hilly, "ethnic," factory'ish, urbanized, and not much farmland/more forested in comparison...or more bluntly, Northern Indiana versus Western New York. I know people from outside the state think Ohio is unified with even Ohio State but it is not. Appalachian Ohio roots for West Virginia or Ohio (U), Southwest Ohio is more UK than OSU the further south you go (Dayton is solidly OSU, FYI), while Toledo is an obvious mixed bag.

Michigan shares commonality with NW Ohio but that's simply 1 out of the 5 Ohios. NE Ohio, while a Great Lakes region like SE Michigan, is more Upstate New York (rolling hills, New England-inspired squares, architecturally similar). SE Michigan has the whole Michigan-left, wide — streets, Great Lakes bungalows, generally flat, Levant-inspired cuisine, random Militia Whites, etc like NW Ohio...and, ya know, Cedar Point. A coworker from Perrysburg, the true northern border city of Ohio across the Maumee, once stated "Michigan is Toledo with trees." For most Ohioans, that's basically it.

As for the rest of the state, someone from Ironton has more in common with Parkersburg WV than Wauseon. Wauseon has more in common with Adrian MI than Steubenville. Steubenville has more in common with Altoona PA than Van Wert. Van Wert has more in common with Angola IN than Ripley. Ripley has more in common with Maysville KY than Conneaut. Conneaut has more in common with Dunkirk NY than Chillicothe. And so forth. Ohio has always been a fractured state, bordering the Great Lakes, Midwest, South, Appalachia, Northeast, and Canada. I believe that's why Michigan has more of a sense of "place" in which everything up there is "Michigan." Michigan Berries, Michigan this, Michigan that, Michigan left, Michigan Michigan. That would never exist in Ohio as Ohioans will never agree what "Ohio" is to them Is it going to Put-in-Bay? Hiking up Mt. Logan? Amish Country in Berlin? Bar hopping in Over-the-Rhine? Sipping ice wine in Ashtabula? ATV riding in Nelsonville? Who — knows. Many people in Cincinnati have no idea Ohio has a lakeshore and islands and people in Toledo have no clue Ohio has Appalachian cabin country with mountain coasters. Michigan has a less fractured history and is certainly more uniformly "the same" than Ohio. Houghton may not look like St. Joseph but they have far more in common than Ohio's extreme edges Conneaut and Ironton.

As an Ohioan, it's always fascinating to see when people want to pin down the state versus another like, say, Michigan or Kentucky. Both of those states exist in Ohio within a 2 hour drive. The national media generally sees NW Ohio as the stereotypic Ohio (farmbelt, conservative, white, some factories...Glee?), even if it's the 2nd least populated Ohio. I used to find that strange but then I remembered as the border state for all these regions, it's the first state the East Coast media is adjacent to in order for the Midwest to exist in their mind. The countless times I've heard in New Jersey heading west (Oh, you're going past Ohio? Is that, like Colorado?) as if they deleted Indiana through Kansas and going straight to the Rockies from Ohio. Essentially, Ohio = Midwest, even though Ohio is the least Midwestern state (i.e. none of it is in the Central Time Zone). I tell my friends in other Midwest states that we (Ohioans) take the bullet for the national media/Hollywood for "Midwest" and if we didn't exist, you'd be next!

Ranting more...the only Midwest state I can think of that may have this Ohio mini-states thing (not as severe but close) is probably Missouri (?). Cincinnati and St. Louis maybe Southern-adjacent but they have nothing on the Bootheel. Throw them rolls, Jerry!


https://www.theflyingmantis.com/

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Docere

City of Toronto

White 43.5%
East and Southeast Asian 20.9%
South Asian 14%
Black 9.6%
Middle Eastern 4%
Latin American 3.3%

Greater Toronto Area

White 44.6%
South Asian 18.4%
East and Southeast Asian 17.8%
Black 7.9%
Middle Eastern 4.5%
Latin American 2.4%

And some other Ontario cities:

Ottawa

White 64.9%
Black 8.5%
East and Southeast Asian 8.1%
Middle Eastern 7.1%
South Asian 5.8%
Latin American 1.4%

Hamilton

White 72.6%
South Asian 6.2%
East and Southeast Asian 6.1%
Black 5.1%
Middle Eastern 4.1%
Latin American 2%

Waterloo Region

White 70.8%
South Asian 9.6%
East and Southeast Asian 6.6%
African 4.6%
Middle Eastern 2.9%
Latin American 2.2%

London

White 68.7%
East and Southeast Asian 6.9%
Middle Eastern 6.6%
South Asian 6.5%
Black 4.2%
Latin American 3%

Windsor

White 63.5%
Middle Eastern 11.1%
South Asian 7.1%
East and Southeast Asian 6.3%
Black 5.9%
Latin American 1.6%

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

You think Toronto is more like Vancouver than it is like Chicago?

Overall, I think Ontario looks and feels way more like Michigan than either feels like British Columbia. I might even go as far as saying that Detroit looks more like a run down Toronto than Toronto and Vancouver look alike. Toronto and Hamilton played a really convincing Detroit in the movie Four Brothers...

Absolutely. Once you get past the surface-level physical & geographic similarities (which themselves don't go too deep), the actual lived experience in Toronto is much closer to that of Vancouver (or most any other large Canadian city) than it is to Chicago.

Since we're focused on urban things here, take for example: Chicago & Detroit are largely characterized by their prewar housing stock that is largely comprised of 2 and 3-flats (aka duplexes and triplexes in Canadian), while Vancouver & Toronto are mostly post-war, with much more recent growth, and the bulk of the housing stock being in high-rise form. The towers don't just look similar either, many are even built by the same developers & builders & suppliers. Urban development patterns are similar with respect to things like growth pressures, land use, multi-nodal suburban skylines, wealth distribution, crime rates, etc. Affordability is the biggest challenge these cities are facing. There isn't any abandonment or urban prairie here; nor is there much of the monumental prewar city beautiful stuff. Transit is similarly underbuilt but well used & being expanded. There are few freeways in the city, and congestion is a problem.

Beyond the urban, these cities are more heavily shaped by immigration, the patterns of which are quite different from those stateside. There's a lot more movement and interaction of people & business between Toronto and Vancouver than there is with any of the American cities. People and social norms are more familiar. They largely follow the same sports, share the same political concerns, have the same cultural references, and so on. One can move between Toronto and Vancouver pretty seamlessly (speaking from personal experience) - it's a much less jarring change than crossing the border is.

None of this should hardly be surprising though - the same is generally true anywhere in the world: national identity (and practical concerns like migration and economics) usually trumps cross-border regional identities.

[Docere]

Vancouver has a lot more in common with Seattle than Toronto does with Detroit...

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Chicago & Detroit are largely characterized by their prewar housing stock that is largely comprised of 2 and 3-flats.

While Chicago is still one of the reigning champs of small-scale MFH (2-9 units), the same no longer applies to Detroit.

Detroit likely had FAR more of that kinda stuff back in the day, but so much of urban core detroit has been lost over the past 75 years that the city is now one of the most heavily dominated by detached SFH's in the country.




Source: https://streets.mn/2015/12/15/chart-of-the-day-housing-types-for-different-us-cities/

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by ColDayMan

The problem is there really isn't a "very Ohio like" concept, at all. Ohio is generally divided into five mini-states in which, as mrnyc demonstrated, no one knows who the — anyone is. Appalachian Ohio (SE Ohio), Bluegrass Ohio (SW Ohio), Western Reserve (NE Ohio), Firelands (NW Ohio), and Central Ohio are all distinctive regions that have little communication or commonality shared except for some crossover near each other's mini-state borders i.e. Sandusky being shared by NW and NE Ohio. Even "Northern Ohio" is vastly different between NW and NE Ohio. NW Ohio is farmbelt, flat, swampy in parts, white, and loves walleye/boating. NE Ohio is more hilly, "ethnic," factory'ish, urbanized, and not much farmland/more forested in comparison...or more bluntly, Northern Indiana versus Western New York. I know people from outside the state think Ohio is unified with even Ohio State but it is not. Appalachian Ohio roots for West Virginia or Ohio (U), Southwest Ohio is more UK than OSU the further south you go (Dayton is solidly OSU, FYI), while Toledo is an obvious mixed bag.

Michigan shares commonality with NW Ohio but that's simply 1 out of the 5 Ohios. NE Ohio, while a Great Lakes region like SE Michigan, is more Upstate New York (rolling hills, New England-inspired squares, architecturally similar). SE Michigan has the whole Michigan-left, wide — streets, Great Lakes bungalows, generally flat, Levant-inspired cuisine, random Militia Whites, etc like NW Ohio...and, ya know, Cedar Point. A coworker from Perrysburg, the true northern border city of Ohio across the Maumee, once stated "Michigan is Toledo with trees." For most Ohioans, that's basically it.

As for the rest of the state, someone from Ironton has more in common with Parkersburg WV than Wauseon. Wauseon has more in common with Adrian MI than Steubenville. Steubenville has more in common with Altoona PA than Van Wert. Van Wert has more in common with Angola IN than Ripley. Ripley has more in common with Maysville KY than Conneaut. Conneaut has more in common with Dunkirk NY than Chillicothe. And so forth. Ohio has always been a fractured state, bordering the Great Lakes, Midwest, South, Appalachia, Northeast, and Canada. I believe that's why Michigan has more of a sense of "place" in which everything up there is "Michigan." Michigan Berries, Michigan this, Michigan that, Michigan left, Michigan Michigan. That would never exist in Ohio as Ohioans will never agree what "Ohio" is to them Is it going to Put-in-Bay? Hiking up Mt. Logan? Amish Country in Berlin? Bar hopping in Over-the-Rhine? Sipping ice wine in Ashtabula? ATV riding in Nelsonville? Who — knows. Many people in Cincinnati have no idea Ohio has a lakeshore and islands and people in Toledo have no clue Ohio has Appalachian cabin country with mountain coasters. Michigan has a less fractured history and is certainly more uniformly "the same" than Ohio. Houghton may not look like St. Joseph but they have far more in common than Ohio's extreme edges Conneaut and Ironton.

As an Ohioan, it's always fascinating to see when people want to pin down the state versus another like, say, Michigan or Kentucky. Both of those states exist in Ohio within a 2 hour drive. The national media generally sees NW Ohio as the stereotypic Ohio (farmbelt, conservative, white, some factories...Glee?), even if it's the 2nd least populated Ohio. I used to find that strange but then I remembered as the border state for all these regions, it's the first state the East Coast media is adjacent to in order for the Midwest to exist in their mind. The countless times I've heard in New Jersey heading west (Oh, you're going past Ohio? Is that, like Colorado?) as if they deleted Indiana through Kansas and going straight to the Rockies from Ohio. Essentially, Ohio = Midwest, even though Ohio is the least Midwestern state (i.e. none of it is in the Central Time Zone). I tell my friends in other Midwest states that we (Ohioans) take the bullet for the national media/Hollywood for "Midwest" and if we didn't exist, you'd be next!

Ranting more...the only Midwest state I can think of that may have this Ohio mini-states thing (not as severe but close) is probably Missouri (?). Cincinnati and St. Louis maybe Southern-adjacent but they have nothing on the Bootheel. Throw them rolls, Jerry!


https://www.theflyingmantis.com/

I get a kick outta your so-called "rants", don’t give up… A great relief from the drier stuff on these threads.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

While Chicago is still one of the reigning champs of small-scale MFH (2-9 units), the same no longer applies to Detroit.

Detroit likely had FAR more of that kinda stuff back in the day, but so much of urban core detroit has been lost over the past 75 years that the city is now one of the most heavily dominated by detached SFH's in the country.

There's a Detroit corridor from downtown to the northwestern suburbs typified by 2-3 family housing and midrise apartment buildings, but that corridor has been super-degraded. It was the densest directional and still has the second busiest bus line (Dexter bus), but the epic demolition means not much left. Check out Dexter, Linwood, Oakman corridors.

[benp]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

While Chicago is still one of the reigning champs of small-scale MFH (2-9 units), the same no longer applies to Detroit.

Detroit likely had FAR more of that kinda stuff back in the day, but so much of urban core detroit has been lost over the past 75 years that the city is now one of the most heavily dominated by detached SFH's in the country.

Here is a similar comparison chart that I put together earlier that includes some other Great Lakes cities plus Pittsburgh for comparison.


Housing by bpawlik, on Flickr

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by ColDayMan

Michigan shares commonality with NW Ohio but that's simply 1 out of the 5 Ohios. NE Ohio, while a Great Lakes region like SE Michigan, is more Upstate New York (rolling hills, New England-inspired squares, architecturally similar). SE Michigan has the whole Michigan-left, wide — streets, Great Lakes bungalows, generally flat, Levant-inspired cuisine, random Militia Whites, etc like NW Ohio...and, ya know, Cedar Point. A coworker from Perrysburg, the true northern border city of Ohio across the Maumee, once stated "Michigan is Toledo with trees." For most Ohioans, that's basically it.

The militia whites aren't in SE Michigan. That's mid-Michigan.

Michigan is more forested than Ohio. The miles and miles of cornfields topography of northern Ohio doesn't really exist in Michigan. That's one reason why Michigan looks more similar to Upstate New York to me than Ohio.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Beyond the urban, these cities are more heavily shaped by immigration, the patterns of which are quite different from those stateside. There's a lot more movement and interaction of people & business between Toronto and Vancouver than there is with any of the American cities. People and social norms are more familiar. They largely follow the same sports, share the same political concerns, have the same cultural references, and so on. One can move between Toronto and Vancouver pretty seamlessly (speaking from personal experience) - it's a much less jarring change than crossing the border is.

None of this should hardly be surprising though - the same is generally true anywhere in the world: national identity (and practical concerns like migration and economics) usually trumps cross-border regional identities.

I'm highly skeptical that Toronto's economy is more tied to Vancouver's than it is to the US Great Lakes region.

[ColDayMan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The militia whites aren't in SE Michigan. That's mid-Michigan.

Michigan is more forested than Ohio. The miles and miles of cornfields topography of northern Ohio doesn't really exist in Michigan. That's one reason why Michigan looks more similar to Upstate New York to me than Ohio.

The topography of Northern Ohio is in two sets: NW Ohio which is generally flat and farmbelt (Michigan-adjacent) and NE Ohio which is hills and forests (Pennsylvania-adjacent). SE Michigan, IMO, is more similar to NW Ohio (they literally border each other, are flat, have areas of agriculture and random forests, etc), while you can make the case that other parts of Michigan are more aligned to Upstate New York, much like NE Ohio. I just drove from Jackson (MI) to Mt. Pleasant (MI) and I saw nothing but flat cornfields on the way and that wasn't a quick trip. But overall, Michigan is more forested than Ohio but that — is generally north of Midland/Saginaw. The majority of Michiganders live near flat/semi-flat agricultural areas. Those Frankenmuth chickens gotta be plucked somewhere.

And I'm no expert on where the white militias of Michigan are but I work in Detroit all the time and see news stories out of Macomb County and the incomparable Howell of white militia activity.

[iheartthed]

I will say that Southwest Ontario looks very, very much like northern Ohio to me. Much/most of the land in both regions is flat, deforested and devoted to farming. From the air you can easily see the border between Ontario and Michigan because of how green it is on the Michigan side versus the Ontario side.

[Crawford]

Maybe bc SE MI is mostly sprawl, so lawns, while SW Ontario is mostly rural, so ag? NW OH is mostly rural too. The drive between Toledo and Sandusky is like a swampy Deliverance.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Beyond the urban, these cities are more heavily shaped by immigration, the patterns of which are quite different from those stateside. There's a lot more movement and interaction of people & business between Toronto and Vancouver than there is with any of the American cities. People and social norms are more familiar. They largely follow the same sports, share the same political concerns, have the same cultural references, and so on. One can move between Toronto and Vancouver pretty seamlessly (speaking from personal experience) - it's a much less jarring change than crossing the border is.

There is a clear generational aspect as well. If you are a Boomer in the 905 belt, your lifestyle on average probably is closer to the US Midwest lifestyle. But many new households formed after 2010 or so either choose or are economically forced into a more urban lifestyle, typically in a compact apartment or condo, often with no vehicle. It is like the 55+ crowd have a stereotypically North American material lifestyle and the under-40s have a European material lifestyle.

Incidentally, the "drop a pin and compare Google Maps" approach to analysis of cities doesn't handle this well as the suburbs cover so much land but so many new housing units are in compact newer buildings. Similarly people notice historic inner residential areas preserved by zoning rules but their proportion of the housing supply is shrinking and they're not very accessible to most Canadians outside of a few cities.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The miles and miles of cornfields topography of northern Ohio doesn't really exist in Michigan. That's one reason why Michigan looks more similar to Upstate New York to me than Ohio.

you have the turnpike viewpoint. nw ohio and southern mi, where all the people live, look quite similar. ne ohio is much greener than nw ohio, but coming from nys and pa you wouldn't notice the change to those cornfields until you got by the cedar point area. you could probably roll a quarter from there to the rocky mountains.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I will say that Southwest Ontario looks very, very much like northern Ohio to me. Much/most of the land in both regions is flat, deforested and devoted to farming. From the air you can easily see the border between Ontario and Michigan because of how green it is on the Michigan side versus the Ontario side.

yes very much like nw ohio and southern mi to some extent, but not ne ohio.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The drive between Toledo and Sandusky is like a swampy Deliverance.

yeah that's because it is a swamp, it's the remnant of the great black swamp, which is the reason all the farms exist.

it's a string national wildlife refuges and state parks along the lakefront between toledo and cedar point and they are stunning.

people tend to skip that nature stuff because, you know, the rolly coasters at cedar point are calling.

i understand.