Most popular world cities per Wikipedia article views

[mhays]

That matches what I've heard.

And nations do often share leadership (along with volume) among multiple cities.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Germany is part of Eurostat and Eurostat uses the FUA. That settles the matter. We're not in 2000 anymore.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Germany as part of Eurostat does not settle anything. Eurostat does not establish hierarchies of relative city importance and Eurostat does not negate national definitions of metropolitan areas.

I find these sort of debates can drift and evolve beyond their initial point of contention. It would be good to firmly establish what is actually in dispute here. In this case, whether or not Germany has a 3rd city or hierarchy within its first tier of cities is a separate question from whether Germans believe the cities have such a hierarchy. One question is about reality (if the cities have significant enough differences in the size of their populations, economies, or other measures of importance to justify believing they have notable differences in importance). The other question is about German culture and perception of the issue. These two questions don't necessarily have the same answer and aren't supported by the same evidence because people believe things that aren't supported by reality all the time. So unless you're discussing the same question, the debate may not even have a singular correct answer.

[Crawford]

Granted, yes, these are distinct issues. Berlin has greater relative prominence outside of Germany than within.

But I don't think there's anything objective demonstrating a clear hierarchy of German cities, at least not relative to France and the UK, where Paris and London have dominated for over 1,000 years each.

And Germany's long history as a patchwork of loosely related dutchies, kingdoms, etc. is the primary difference. And Germany's modern economic strengths via the dispersed, small-town Mittlestand firms, reinforce this flat hierarchy. Germany's strengths are bottom-up, not top-down.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Granted, yes, these are distinct issues. Berlin has greater relative prominence outside of Germany than within.

But I don't think there's anything objective demonstrating a clear hierarchy of German cities, at least not relative to France and the UK, where Paris and London have dominated for over 1,000 years each.

And Germany's long history as a patchwork of loosely related dutchies, kingdoms, etc. is the primary difference. And Germany's modern economic strengths via the dispersed, small-town Mittlestand firms, reinforce this flat hierarchy. Germany's strengths are bottom-up, not top-down.

I would say much of Berlin's prominence stems from his role during the Cold War whereas now, it's just another major city in Germany.

[Docere]

Berlin was Germany's "primate city" from the Bismarck era until Anschluss (when Germany was dominated by Prussia). It became especially large during the Weimar era when its boundaries expanded (I believe it was the largest city on the European continent, though Paris had tighter boundaries).

Berlin was isolated after WWII from the wealthier, more powerful West, and the Allies made sure to break up Prussia because they attributed the rise of Nazism to Prussian militarism. West Germany was a decentralized, federated state and the structure continued after re-unification.

[Crawford]

And even during Berlin's peak era, there was strong German resistance to Prussian (Berlin) authority. The Rhineland was the strongest hotbed of popular resistance to the Third Reich, unfortunately not for ethical or policy reasons, but bc they were staunchly anti-Prussian and (Catholic) Papist.

[UrbanImpact]

German news network DW says Munich is 3rd largest. https://www.dw.com/en/top-10-germanys-largest-cities/g-52632011

[Crawford]

Munich is the third largest city, by municipal population. That's not the discussion. Obviously every country with at least three cities has a third largest city by municipal population.

[Docere]

Largest cities in Germany, 1933:

Berlin 4,243,000
Hamburg 1,129,000
Cologne 757,000
Munich 735,000
Leipzig 714,000
Essen 654,000
Dresden 642,000
Breslau 625,000
Frankfurt 556,000
Dortmund 541,000

[mhays]

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

German news network DW says Munich is 3rd largest. https://www.dw.com/en/top-10-germanys-largest-cities/g-52632011

You mean a reporter at the network found a list somewhere and quoted it, likely without knowing much about demographics.

No matter the institution or media outlet, it's usually one person, or perhaps a few, not the institution itself.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by Docere

Largest cities in Germany, 1933:

Berlin 4,243,000
Hamburg 1,129,000
Cologne 757,000
Munich 735,000
Leipzig 714,000
Essen 654,000
Dresden 642,000
Breslau 625,000
Frankfurt 556,000
Dortmund 541,000

Is this metro areas or some equivalent? Or just municipalities? If the latter, was it parallel in any way?

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Munich is the third largest city, by municipal population. That's not the discussion. Obviously every country with at least three cities has a third largest city by municipal population.

Yup, just like our favorite City of Jacksonville, FL is much larger than Miami in size and population.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by mhays

Is this metro areas or some equivalent? Or just municipalities? If the latter, was it parallel in any way?

City boundaries. Today's Berlin is basically the same area as then. It was a huge city in the interwar period.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Docere

It became especially large during the Weimar era when its boundaries expanded (I believe it was the largest city on the European continent, though Paris had tighter boundaries).

Berlin was never ahead of Paris.

Berlin came closest to Paris in 1914, but during the war Paris grew more than Berlin (due to the immense French industrial war effort, with France acting as the arsenal of democracies, equipping entirely the US Army, etc, and this industrial war effort took place largely in Greater Paris). After the war, Paris also grew more than Berlin.

In 1921, Berlin (892 km²) had 3,886,000 inhabitants and Paris (892 km²) had 4,826,000. By 1931, Berlin (892 km²) had 4,330,000 inhabitants and Paris (892 km²) had 5,629,000. During those 10 years Berlin grew by 11.4% but Paris grew by 16.6%.

During those same 10 years, Greater London (1572 km²) grew by 9.7% and Paris (1572 km²) grew by 18.5% (this shows that by the 1920s, Paris was already starting to sprawl beyond 892 km², and the central 892 km² were growing less than the most distant suburbs). During those same 10 years New York City grew by 21.0% and the New York MSA grew by 24.9%.

[Crawford]

Berlin, even in its present diminished state, is twice the size of Paris if we strictly look at city propers, which seems to be the thread argument for hierarchical order. This is almost as silly as Jacksonville more important than Miami.

There are more people living in proximity to half a dozen German cities, as Berlin is surrounded by almost nothing, and Berlin proper contains extensive quasi-rural land. Even Stuttgart has a comparable commuter shed.

[New Brisavoine]

Berlin is 250 times the size of London if we strictly look at city proper. And Marseille is 4 times the size of Sydney if we look at city proper.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Berlin, even in its present diminished state, is twice the size of Paris if we strictly look at city propers, which seems to be the thread argument for hierarchical order. This is almost as silly as Jacksonville more important than Miami.

There are more people living in proximity to half a dozen German cities, as Berlin is surrounded by almost nothing, and Berlin proper contains extensive quasi-rural land. Even Stuttgart has a comparable commuter shed.

Are Paris and Berlin propers city?

[Crawford]

We were obviously talking population, not land area. Munich is not the third largest German city by land area. Many cities are larger.

[Docere]

FWIW...

Metropolitan Areas (2023, Eurostat)

Berlin 5,106,083
Frankfurt 2,722,157
Hamburg 3,493,121
Munich 3,066,200
Rhein-Nord (Dusseldorf) 2,279,102
Rhein-Sud (Cologne-Bonn) 3,034,481
Ruhr 5,068,912
Stuttgart 2,558,200

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Docere

FWIW...

Metropolitan Areas (2023, Eurostat)

Berlin 5,106,083
Frankfurt 2,722,157
Hamburg 3,493,121
Munich 3,066,200
Rhein-Nord (Dusseldorf) 2,279,102
Rhein-Sud (Cologne-Bonn) 3,034,481
Ruhr 5,068,912
Stuttgart 2,558,200

Exactly what I was saying. But he will still be arguing 10 years from now that Munich is not the 3rd largest in Germany (Ruhr aside).