Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Vantage

Also there is difference between a bored tunnel and one that is cast on land and then submerged. One has a lot more risk involved.

Then they should have stuck with a bridge.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vantage

Yeah, I'm just refuting the false notion that projects built under certain political parties are somehow immune to delay and budget overruns. Any project under construction during the pandemic would've been delayed even if it was planned by the BC Liberals.

Said Liberals who already promised a Massey Bridge in 2013... and then sat on their asses until the next election and made the voters choose between it and the SkyTrains (and let's not forgot the delays in transit construction from the 2014 referendum). Infrastructure partisanship has been a thing since practically forever.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

That has been your entire argument.

Nice try! My argument is based on a project that was well documented, planned in detail for four years, and unarguably in motion.

Just admit that canceling the bridge was wrong, and now we are in a much worse situation regarding the tunnel replacement, and there is literally a 0.00001% chance that the original project would have opened later and at a higher cost than this new 11 to 12 billion dollar boondoggle.

Also would be great if you addressed all my other points / information regarding comparative costs between bridges and tunnels, and how even if the original project doubled in cost and was years delayed it would still have ended up less than half the price with far more built (true rapid bus, 30m of upgrades, etc...) then what we have now.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Said Liberals who already promised a Massey Bridge in 2013... and then sat on their asses until the next election and made the voters choose between it and the SkyTrains (and let's not forgot the delays in transit construction from the 2014 referendum). Infrastructure partisanship has been a thing since practically forever.

Again, four years from initial stated interest, where several options were presented (new tunnel, new third tunnel or bridge span, entirely new route plus seismic upgrades to current tunnel, entirely new bridge and decommissioned tunnel) involving public consultation, selected preferred option, creating detailed plans, environmental review, pre-construction and official tender for primary contractor almost completed, is lightning speed in Canada.

That said, I d agree with you that they should have also never done the transit referendum in 2014, and that they should have pushed the GM Bridge project six through six months faster and not have used it as an election promise.

If you want to see some real dragging of feet, check out the NDP's progress on the Malahat... having been discussed for a decade... now cancelled... I mean deferred to a later date

Check out the new interchanges on Highway 97 at Boucherie Road and Westlake Road in West Kelowna, proposed in 2016. Current status today? Early Engineering, cost to be determined.... A decade! For two interchanges, and still no planned commencement date.

Now that is NDP speed!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Nice try! My argument is based on a project that was well documented, planned in detail for four years, and unarguably in motion.

If they truly wanted it to happen they would have had it under construction beyond the ability to reasonably change plans by 2017, like Site C.

It was a vote getting promise for a giant bridge many said was overbuilt, to allow for bigger ships up and down the Fraser.

When deciding the project in 2013 or 2026, a tunnel is always going to be a cheaper option, primarily due to the soil conditions in that area. You can keep arguing about the past and stamping your feet but it's not very productive.

We should have built the RAV line in the 90s as envisioned by the Socreds when they built the Expo line. It would have been far cheaper and used the same track and technology as the Expo line. But I'm not here ranting about that because it's long over and pointless to do so.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Repthe250

Agree to disagree, then. The NDP doesn’t build. Simple as that. Hell, the okanagan hasn’t had a single road infrastructure upgrade since the NDP took over. They’ve completely shelved the only project in the books which was building overpasses at two at grade intersections on the 97, proposed by the Liberals in 2014. It’s just what they do.

In the NDP's defence, those savings get redirected to giving otherwise un-hireable virtue signallers and advocates unnecessary jobs in their administration.

Otherwise, how would anybody with a degree that ends with "Studies" at the name of it find a job? (I can't take credit for that joke about Studies; I can't remember who first observed the futility of those degrees.)

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Just admit that canceling the bridge was wrong, and now we are in a much worse situation regarding the tunnel replacement...

The time to make arguments in favour of one or the other has passed. The die is cast, now we have to move forward.

[bluefox]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

We should have built the RAV line in the 90s as envisioned by the Socreds when they built the Expo line. It would have been far cheaper and used the same track and technology as the Expo line. But I'm not here ranting about that because it's long over and pointless to do so.

I'm all for having built things earlier for cheaper, but you've got a blind spot in your argument about the RAV line, and that's that it wasn't going to be as smooth of a sailing as our memories allow for.

The NIMBY constituency was strong and influential, and would have never allowed an elevated line down Cambie or Arbutus. The Socreds "envisioned" a lot of things they had no intention of building knowing it would anger their base. The NDP ended up announcing the plan to proceed with SkyTrain to Richmond in 1997/98, and, right on cue, Kerrisdale and Shaughnessy residents were out in force to oppose it. Remember "crème de la crème"?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by bluefox

I'm all for having built things earlier for cheaper, but you've got a blind spot in your argument about the RAV line, and that's that it wasn't going to be as smooth of a sailing as our memories allow for.

The NIMBY constituency was strong and influential, and would have never allowed an elevated line down Cambie or Arbutus. The Socreds "envisioned" a lot of things they had no intention of building knowing it would anger their base. The NDP ended up announcing the plan to proceed with SkyTrain to Richmond in 1997/98, and, right on cue, Kerrisdale and Shaughnessy residents were out in force to oppose it. Remember "crème de la crème"?

Thanks that sums up my point perfectly.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by bluefox

The NIMBY constituency was strong and influential, and would have never allowed an elevated line down Cambie or Arbutus. The Socreds "envisioned" a lot of things they had no intention of building knowing it would anger their base. The NDP ended up announcing the plan to proceed with SkyTrain to Richmond in 1997/98, and, right on cue, Kerrisdale and Shaughnessy residents were out in force to oppose it. Remember "crème de la crème"?

It's a little forgotten by time but if mayor and council + the NIMBY constituency had had their way in the 1980s they never would have allowed an elevated line through East Vancouver. Mike Harcourt as mayor of Vancouver was opposed to the Skytrain but the Socreds rammed it through.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Wasn't it the other way around? IIRC it was planned as surface rail, but then Burnaby wanted so many overpasses that planners just made it one big overpass instead.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by chowhou

It's a little forgotten by time but if mayor and council + the NIMBY constituency had had their way in the 1980s they never would have allowed an elevated line through East Vancouver. Mike Harcourt as mayor of Vancouver was opposed to the Skytrain but the Socreds rammed it through.

Mike Harcourt campaigned on developing an LRT system (like the recently opened Edmonton system) when he stood for mayor in the fall of 1980. The province announced that they would build the Kingston developed ALRT system around the time that he was elected. He was concerned that the system hadn't been built anywhere else, but he went to look at the system operating, and supported it by February 1981 - so he wasn't opposed to the system we now know as SkyTrain, once it had been chosen. He was OK with it being elevated from Downtown as far as the Grandview Cut.

The store owners on Commercial drive were opposed to it running along the lane next to their property, and in 1981 Harcourt supported the idea of that short section (from Broadway to 16th) being tunnelled, at an additional cost of $14m. However, he was unable to get provincial or federal funding, and City Council were only willing to fund $5m, so it was built with the elevated section we have today. Once the decision was made, he didn't support further opposition. In spring 1983 "By a 5-1 vote, the committee and Mayor Mike Harcourt rejected a motion that city staff be directed to stop all preparatory engineering work in the area for an elevated line. "This corpse is dead," Harcourt said."It's being built now. We have to live with it."

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Wasn't it the other way around? IIRC it was planned as surface rail, but then Burnaby wanted so many overpasses that planners just made it one big overpass instead.

No, the provincial NDP proposed surface rail in the early 70s and Metro Vancouver was interested but they lost to the SoCreds in the 1975 election and they killed the idea of rapid transit completely. Eventually by 1980 the SoCreds realised Vancouver needed rapid transit but they were deadset on Skytrain technology. Skytrain isn't just "surface rail with a lot of overpasses", it requires complete grade separation from the early planning stages so the idea it was originally surface rail with a lot of overpasses doesn't make sense.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by chowhou

No, the provincial NDP proposed surface rail in the early 70s and Metro Vancouver was interested but they lost to the SoCreds in the 1975 election and they killed the idea of rapid transit completely. Eventually by 1980 the SoCreds realised Vancouver needed rapid transit but they were deadset on Skytrain technology. Skytrain isn't just "surface rail with a lot of overpasses", it requires complete grade separation from the early planning stages so the idea it was originally surface rail with a lot of overpasses doesn't make sense.

They liked the idea of no driver. No union bus drivers holding things up.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

They liked the idea of no driver. No union bus drivers holding things up.

It's been a godsend whenever the bus drivers go on strike. I'm also thankful that we went automated from the get-go. My understanding is that the New York Subway is theoretically fully automated now with all the technology in place, but union contracts mandate that each train still has a two person crew (no jobs can be lost ever!) and if they ever went on strike the trains would stop for no particular reason at all.

Anyway, I don't have much of a horse in the race for tunnel vs bridge but at this point I'm just waiting for 2028 when the Conservatives probably take over and build the bridge purely out of spite.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by chowhou

It's been a godsend whenever the bus drivers go on strike. I'm also thankful that we went automated from the get-go. My understanding is that the New York Subway is theoretically fully automated now with all the technology in place, but union contracts mandate that each train still has a two person crew (no jobs can be lost ever!) and if they ever went on strike the trains would stop for no particular reason at all.

Anyway, I don't have much of a horse in the race for tunnel vs bridge but at this point I'm just waiting for 2028 when the Conservatives probably take over and build the bridge purely out of spite.

NYC's subway is not even close to being automated.

They have one line that I think is somewhat automated. The rest are ancient. NYC has been very slow to update its signalling, and only did one line as a starter because it was a single line with no interlining.

I think most of their stuff is still running on 1930s vintage electronics.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I think most of their stuff is still running on 1930s vintage XXXelectronicsXXX relays.

Fixed that for you...

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by chowhou

It's a little forgotten by time but if mayor and council + the NIMBY constituency had had their way in the 1980s they never would have allowed an elevated line through East Vancouver. Mike Harcourt as mayor of Vancouver was opposed to the Skytrain but the Socreds rammed it through.

... and that's basically why the City of Vancouver did not [historically] allow densification at Commercial & Broadway, Nanaimo or 29th Ave. stations - because they viewed it as the Province ramming the line down the City's throats. Only Joyce was densified because it replaced 'ugly' warehouses with a more palatable residential community.
The local area plans around those stations only allowed redevelopment of then-vacant lots.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by officedweller

...Joyce was densified because it replaced 'ugly' warehouses with a more palatable residential community.

I walked past those warehouses daily on my way to school in the early 1970's. I have photos of them installing the railway sidings to the loading docks in the back.

When they tore down the warehouses I said to myself "wow, they just built those warehouses and they're tearing them down already!?!?". Then I realized that my memories were from 25 years ago. Talk about a wake-up call...

And now here I am, some 25-odd more years past that...

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I walked past those warehouses daily on my way to school in the early 1970's. I have photos of them installing the railway sidings to the loading docks in the back.

When they tore down the warehouses I said to myself "wow, they just built those warehouses and they're tearing them down already!?!?". Then I realized that my memories were from 25 years ago. Talk about a wake-up call...

And now here I am, some 25-odd more years past that...

More like 35 years. Starting in 1990 until 2006 Vancouver Land Corporation, and then Concert Properties (and their predecessor, Greystone) had developed 1,917 condominium and 783 rental units.