Transit Fantasies

[mcj]

Thinking about how to implement Tsawassen Ferry Terminal bus connections to Surrey (as well as North Delta / Langley). I think this has been mentioned previously, and I'm sure Translink is aware that this connection is an obvious service gap. Hopefully we see something emerge from the bus route reconfiguration for the SLS and BRT lines.

I think there's a few possible routes to explore:

(Alignment 1: Scott Road Station)
TFT to Scott Road Station using Highway 17, and northern portion of 120th Street bus lanes to access Scott Road Station. Approx. 35 min travel time due to limited stops and a direct highway & bus lane connection. Advantage of being the most direct and quickest end to end option with direction connection to Expo Line and R6.

(Alignment 2: Nordel Way and KGB to Surrey Central)
TFT to Nordel Way via Highway 17, with a R6 connection stop at Scott Road, before joining the KGB BRT bus lanes and stops from 88th to Surrey Central Station. Approx. 45-50 min travel time due to 5x stops and mixed travel on Nordel Way/88th. Advantage of connecting to R6 mid-route and KGB BRT, as well as a direct connection to Surrey Central.

(Alignment 3: 72nd Ave to Bakerview-166 Street Station via new 72nd Ave)
TFT to 72nd Ave via Highway 17 to 99 to 91, along 72nd Ave with stops at Scottsdale Exchange and Newton Exchange, continuing along 72nd Ave to 168th Street (with future 72nd Ave extension underway), north on 168th Street to Bakerview-166 Street Station. Approx 50-60+min travel time due to 4x stops and mixed travel for most of the route, advantage of connecting to multiple major transit exchanges.

[waves]

Speaking of the Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal, and thinking about how YVR thinks it should be the hub for High Speed Rail, AND, with all the talk going on about the George Massey, it's got me thinking about the possibilities again for a rail connection from Bridgeport to the Ferry.

If HS Rail is intended to connect to the Airport, and if the new GM was designed to handle future rail tracks, could a portion of the Airport Canada Line track be set up to handle HS rail trains of 200m such as the Frecciarossa 1000 high speed train set with overhead electrification? Could the HS rail to be the south also be set up to handle the Hyundai Rotem EMUs (90 km/hr) with a third rail and overhead electrification between Bridgeport and the turn off to Ladner? Could we then get a 3rd rail electrified track out to the Ferry with Canada Line Style 60m platforms on the median of the 17A and 17? Or perhaps light rail vehicles with a high speed capacity like Alstom Citadis Spirits (130 km/hr) with transit priority for the very few intersections along the way?

Ferry / 4.8 / Tsawwassen / 6.2 / Ladner / 2.6 / Hwy99 » Total 12.6
Hwy 99 / 3.1 / Steveston / 8.2 / Bridgeport / 1.0 / Canada Line Switch » Total 12.3
Canada Line Switch / 0.5 / Templeton / 1.9 / Double Track Ends / 0.4 / New Airport HS Station » Total 2.8

Travel Times

+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
|        Segment        | 130 km/h train | 90 km/h train | Current 620 & Canada Line |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Airport to Bridgeport | 2:21           | 2:57          | ~ 7:00                    |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Bridgeport to Ladner  | 7:01           | 9:41          | ~ 20:00 (+7m Transfer)    |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Ladner to Ferry       | 5:41           | 7:45          | ~ 18:00                   |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Moving total          | 15 min         | 20 min        | 52 min                    |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1XZts6CYHfrGUTXnXwrvWe9fal7eAkQI&usp=sharing

Image Source: Own work

[Glow Fun City]

Very cool! Would love to be able to take the train down to the ferry

[WarrenC12]

Train to the ferry would be a game changer.

However I don't see who is taking it to/from the airport.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by waves

Speaking of the Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal, and thinking about how YVR thinks it should be the hub for High Speed Rail, AND, with all the talk going on about the George Massey, it's got me thinking about the possibilities again for a rail connection from Bridgeport to the Ferry.

If HS Rail is intended to connect to the Airport, and if the new GM was designed to handle future rail tracks, could a portion of the Airport Canada Line track be set up to handle HS rail trains of 200m such as the Frecciarossa 1000 high speed train set with overhead electrification? Could the HS rail to be the south also be set up to handle the Hyundai Rotem EMUs (90 km/hr) with a third rail and overhead electrification between Bridgeport and the turn off to Ladner? Could we then get a 3rd rail electrified track out to the Ferry with Canada Line Style 60m platforms on the median of the 17A and 17? Or perhaps light rail vehicles with a high speed capacity like Alstom Citadis Spirits (130 km/hr) with transit priority for the very few intersections along the way?

Ferry / 4.8 / Tsawwassen / 6.2 / Ladner / 2.6 / Hwy99 » Total 12.6
Hwy 99 / 3.1 / Steveston / 8.2 / Bridgeport / 1.0 / Canada Line Switch » Total 12.3
Canada Line Switch / 0.5 / Templeton / 1.9 / Double Track Ends / 0.4 / New Airport HS Station » Total 2.8

Travel Times

+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
|        Segment        | 130 km/h train | 90 km/h train | Current 620 & Canada Line |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Airport to Bridgeport | 2:21           | 2:57          | ~ 7:00                    |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Bridgeport to Ladner  | 7:01           | 9:41          | ~ 20:00 (+7m Transfer)    |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Ladner to Ferry       | 5:41           | 7:45          | ~ 18:00                   |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Moving total          | 15 min         | 20 min        | 52 min                    |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1XZts6CYHfrGUTXnXwrvWe9fal7eAkQI&usp=sharing

Image Source: Own work

Not going to waterfront?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Not going to waterfront?

Well the Canada Line travels to Waterfront. Plus where would be put a HS rail line in Van that wouldn't cost an absolute fortune?

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Well the Canada Line travels to Waterfront. Plus where would be put a HS rail line in Van that wouldn't cost an absolute fortune?

Probably along the RoW towards PacCentral. Also, why have a stop at Templeton?

[Vantage]

The ferry terminal is not really the ridership draw many people seem to think it is. Each ferry only has a capacity of 1500 people max (many of those using personal vehicles) and the ferries only come every hour during peak season. The Tsawwassen terminal express bus is perfectly serviceable and actually has significantly higher average speed than the Canada Line. I take it about a dozen times a year. It would be a huge waste of money, but I guess this is the transit fantasy thread, because this will and should remain a fantasy.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Vantage

The ferry terminal is not really the ridership draw many people seem to think it is. Each ferry only has a capacity of 1500 people max (many of those using personal vehicles) and the ferries only come every hour during peak season. The Tsawwassen terminal express bus is perfectly serviceable and actually has significantly higher average speed than the Canada Line. I take it about a dozen times a year. It would be a huge waste of money, but I guess this is the transit fantasy thread, because this will and should remain a fantasy.

The most I see in my lifetime would be a Canada Line extension to Ladner Exchange or wherever there is the most density in Delta with a rapid bus connecting that station with exchanges in Tsawwassen, Ladner, and North Delta. But that will require a rebuild of Richmond-Brighouse.

[waves]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

However I don't see who is taking it to/from the airport.

The exercise was less about connecting the airport and the ferry specifically as ODs (origin-destinations) that need to be served and instead about the idea of the airport being the HSR (high speed rail) hub. I am also not asking whether it should be or not, just supposing that it has been already decided as the hub, and thinking about what happens after. So about:

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Not going to waterfront?

So, it could be waterfront, or perhaps not, but I am thinking about a different set of questions than where the hub will be.

Particularly, could the underutilized Canada Line (CL) spur be used also for infrequent HSR trains which, even at most, might be once hourly?

If then yes, and only then, would it then make sense to use that same HSR infrastructure to also provide a regional rail connection to Tsawwassen?

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Why have a stop at Templeton?

Templeton is the long term parking for the airport. It could similarly be used for the HSR.

It's also the only station where the HSR and the CL would likely be able to share platforms and thus would be the easiest station to facilitate transfers. Bridgeport is too busy and is constrained lengthwise by flyovers and necessary switches for their OMC, and YVR as the terminal station needs to be able to have trains dwell for long periods.

The only other option would be Sea-Island Center, which has the benefit of being a center platform, but doesn't have the long term parking. Plus being farther away from Bridgeport may decrease the desirability to transfer there rather than simply walk between the stations at Bridgeport, at which point, you may as well not stop at Sea-Island Center anyways. But the lack of a center-platform at Templeton is not a game changer, particularly as the side platform configuration allows step-free access to the Long-Term Parking.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Vantage

The ferry terminal is not really the ridership draw many people seem to think it is. Each ferry only has a capacity of 1500 people max (many of those using personal vehicles) and the ferries only come every hour during peak season. The Tsawwassen terminal express bus is perfectly serviceable and actually has significantly higher average speed than the Canada Line.

The fact that the ferry terminal does not look like a huge transit draw today is rather obvious. A large share of the people who would otherwise be walk-on passengers are sitting in cars, paying to bring the car, because the non-car trip is awkward: SkyTrain, transfer, express bus, ferry, then another bus at the other end. Add on luggage, kids, bikes, or travel bags and the bus being fast enough becomes somewhat moot. The research has similar findings when they look at peoples preference for travelling to an airport (2% for bus vs 25% for rail, Colovic et al. 2022).

Consider the fare structure. On the main Victoria route, the adult passenger fare is about $20, while taking a standard vehicle is about $90 before even counting the passenger fare. So a car-and-driver trip is roughly five times the price of a walk-on passenger trip. Even with 3 adults, the price with a car per person is $50, 2.5x greater than if they didn't go by car. That price difference should be, and to a large part is, pushing people toward walk-on tickets. Walk-on passengers have indeed risen significantly over the past 10 years. But even then, the scarcity of space for vehicles is very evident. Nowadays 70–90% of vehicle deck space is bookable and people are needing to book further and further ahead to secure a vehicle spot. The access experience is wider than just the experience of the express bus, and that experience is bad enough that many people are still paying a major premium to avoid it.

People prefer rail based solutions when long-distance travel is involved and better rail-based access could shift people out of cars before they ever reach the terminal. That means fewer cars competing for deck space, more people moved per sailing, lower pressure for expensive vehicle capacity, better access for people who cannot or do not want to drive, and more realistic possibilities for passenger-focused service patterns (imagine having passenger-only or smaller-vessel services interspersed with vehicular vessels). This is also not to mention the other various economic benefits with reduced pollution, time savings, improved reliability and expanded accessibility.

Anyways, citing suppressed numbers as proof that better access is unnecessary is circular logic and ignores the fact that BC Ferries is under significant strain. Providing more car based ferry service might just be, equally, a huge waste of money.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

The most I see in my lifetime would be a Canada Line extension to Ladner Exchange or wherever there is the most density in Delta with a rapid bus connecting that station with exchanges in Tsawwassen, Ladner, and North Delta. But that will require a rebuild of Richmond-Brighouse.

The highest density in Delta would be North Delta - Ladner and Tsawwassen are tiny suburbs surrounded by open fields or water. If the Canada Line were to ever get an extension (and that's a really big if) it would be within Richmond.

Any future Skytrain in Delta would join with the Expo Line, not Canada Line. I'd put it as a separate line so Expo doesn't get split yet again but I'm not sure where to join it (due to Scott Road hill being more than a 6 degree grade and the area isn't dense enough to justify a tunnel). More likely would be a Skytrain line on King George (more density and no major hills) and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[xd_1771]

I think I see what you're thinking!

This would create a setup almost identical to the Athens Metro's airport line

Which actually uses the exact same rolling stock as the Canada Line (the more you know!)

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Vantage

The ferry terminal is not really the ridership draw many people seem to think it is. Each ferry only has a capacity of 1500 people max (many of those using personal vehicles) and the ferries only come every hour during peak season. The Tsawwassen terminal express bus is perfectly serviceable and actually has significantly higher average speed than the Canada Line. I take it about a dozen times a year. It would be a huge waste of money, but I guess this is the transit fantasy thread, because this will and should remain a fantasy.

Exactly, the bus is more than sufficient. From the 2024 TSPR the 620 has annual boardings at 18% of the 320+502 and 9% of the R4. Of course, that's including trips from Ladner.
Induced demand should me very minimal.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by waves

The fact that the ferry terminal does not look like a huge transit draw today is rather obvious. A large share of the people who would otherwise be walk-on passengers are sitting in cars, paying to bring the car, because the non-car trip is awkward: SkyTrain, transfer, express bus, ferry, then another bus at the other end. Add on luggage, kids, bikes, or travel bags and the bus being fast enough becomes somewhat moot. The research has similar findings when they look at peoples preference for travelling to an airport (2% for bus vs 25% for rail, Colovic et al. 2022).

Yesn't - Tsawwassen sees roughly three ferries an hour at most.

Now the Spirit-class can carry 2.1k, the Coastal-class 1.6k and the V-class 1.3k, so in theory we could see 5k pphpd at rush hour (if the ships are at 100% capacity, and the train grabs 100% of mode share)... but at 72% capacity and a very optimistic 50% transit mode share, we're looking at 1.8k pphpd and hoping induced demand covers the rest. Not the best business case for a ten-figure project.

[madog222]

^50% load taking transit is indeed being very optimistic.

Plus I imagine it's only Route 1 that would attract any statistically significant passengers that would use rail transit.

[Changing City]

If I'm travelling to Victoria, unless I use Harbour Air, I take the BC Ferries Connector. Door-to-door Downtown to Downtown, with no local transit needed, and operated on four crossings a day.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by waves

Speaking of the Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal, and thinking about how YVR thinks it should be the hub for High Speed Rail, AND, with all the talk going on about the George Massey, it's got me thinking about the possibilities again for a rail connection from Bridgeport to the Ferry.

If HS Rail is intended to connect to the Airport, and if the new GM was designed to handle future rail tracks, could a portion of the Airport Canada Line track be set up to handle HS rail trains of 200m such as the Frecciarossa 1000 high speed train set with overhead electrification? Could the HS rail to be the south also be set up to handle the Hyundai Rotem EMUs (90 km/hr) with a third rail and overhead electrification between Bridgeport and the turn off to Ladner? Could we then get a 3rd rail electrified track out to the Ferry with Canada Line Style 60m platforms on the median of the 17A and 17? Or perhaps light rail vehicles with a high speed capacity like Alstom Citadis Spirits (130 km/hr) with transit priority for the very few intersections along the way?

Ferry / 4.8 / Tsawwassen / 6.2 / Ladner / 2.6 / Hwy99 » Total 12.6
Hwy 99 / 3.1 / Steveston / 8.2 / Bridgeport / 1.0 / Canada Line Switch » Total 12.3
Canada Line Switch / 0.5 / Templeton / 1.9 / Double Track Ends / 0.4 / New Airport HS Station » Total 2.8

Travel Times

+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
|        Segment        | 130 km/h train | 90 km/h train | Current 620 & Canada Line |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Airport to Bridgeport | 2:21           | 2:57          | ~ 7:00                    |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Bridgeport to Ladner  | 7:01           | 9:41          | ~ 20:00 (+7m Transfer)    |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Ladner to Ferry       | 5:41           | 7:45          | ~ 18:00                   |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+
| Moving total          | 15 min         | 20 min        | 52 min                    |
+-----------------------+----------------+---------------+---------------------------+

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1XZts6CYHfrGUTXnXwrvWe9fal7eAkQI&usp=sharing

Image Source: Own work

Love the scenario of HSR to the airport. It seems like a likely scenario that if the Americans get around to building HSR, they'd do it either on the existing alignment or up Interstate 5. I do think that Highway 99 would be easier to build an alignment on then Highway 15 looking at your full alignment map.

I would think a Bridgeport Terminus get's 90% of the way there without the need for a tunnel though, that's a fairly easy value engineer. YVR still gets HSR to what is effectively their people mover, and there's a reasonable connection to Downtown and the existing bus terminus in the short term.

I was wondering to see what you think about an interchange in Surrey being left open for a modern high speed metro down King George Blvd that could also serve HSR? Sort of a backbone of a regional rail system that can be phased in over time using the HSR capable tracks. Using KGB you could get reasonably fast travel times from Surrey Central to the Airport using the trainsets you suggest.

[Vantage]

Originally Posted by waves

Anyways, citing suppressed numbers as proof that better access is unnecessary is circular logic and ignores the fact that BC Ferries is under significant strain. Providing more car based ferry service might just be, equally, a huge waste of money.

They aren't suppressed numbers though... Each ferry has a max capacity of passengers due to life raft capacity. There is an upper limit due to the capacity of the ferries. My point is that even if every passenger on the ferry is a walk-on, you're still looking at ridership numbers that are easily serviceable by an express bus.

[WarrenC12]

If BC Ferries started to see huge demand for pedestrian traffic, they would adapt the boats and potentially increase the capacity for people significantly. Part of an overall transit fantasy!

But obviously people see driving on as expensive and onerous, I know I do. You either need reservations where you still show up an hour early, or get there when you get there and hope for the best with waiting. It's arguably slower than riding the bus on either end.