The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by bingun

The two permits for the old schools are $6M (34 Units) for St Patrick's and $3.5M (25 Units) for St. Vincent's.

25 units... hmm. I would have figured more, even assuming nothing residential happens on be bottom level. Not counting that or the new wing, there's like 45,000 square feet to work with. Maybe they're demolishing some of the brick extensions behind St Joe's. Or maybe it's phased.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Religion isn't really my specialty but I feel like having a new building with a nice minaret that actually looks like it belongs to their religion would be better than converting that old church. I know, bigger city but on Number 5 road in Vancouver that whole street is Buddhist templates, mosques, churches and they are beautiful buildings.

I let AI take a stab at a mosque conversion on the King’s Square West former church… I asked it to “turn this church into an art deco mosque” … and I quite like the results!

Before:



After:




The roof style would probably have to remain more similar to the current church roof, but I think a conversion on this building could be done, if the bones of the building are solid.

I challenge anyone to find a former church in Saint John more suited for conversion into a mosque or another religion’s house of worship.

If Saint John wants to keep growing our population, a bigger, better mosque could help achieve that goal. Islam is the second largest religion in Canada, and the world.

[KnoxfordGuy]

That church is a private home now. Yes?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by KnoxfordGuy

That church is a private home now. Yes?

Sure doesn’t look like it, I think you might be thinking of the yellow former church near Queen’s Square West?


This one is a private home.

The one in the post previous (at King Square West) looks to be an incredibly run down convenience store or something. Never been inside, but have always wanted to… especially the top of the clock tower!

[sailor734]

St Judes has been converted to a private home. St George's has been a wedding venue and a couple of other failed concepts. Sad really....If I recall correctly it dates to 1810

[bingun]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

25 units... hmm. I would have figured more, even assuming nothing residential happens on be bottom level. Not counting that or the new wing, there's like 45,000 square feet to work with. Maybe they're demolishing some of the brick extensions behind St Joe's. Or maybe it's phased.

Going back to the CBC article from 2024, it said St Patrick's would be 34 apartments and seven townhouses, and St Vincent's would be 70-80 units, so quite a drop for St Vincent's. I assume the townhouses would be phased separately, but I am less sure about what has changed with St Vincent's. For me, it is less about the raw unit count and more about reoccupying the building and maintaining momentum in the local area.

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

I really wish that there was enough funds within the local Muslim community to create a really nice looking mosque. I've been to many across the globe and they are always really beautiful. It's such a shame the buildings they are in are random buildings.

Excited for that next apartment block to jump up. There's a ton of potential to add more of these buildings. Say it quietly but within 5-10 years, this road will be down to 1 lane with a bike lane and you know everyone will lose their minds

I think we should be fair about this and acknowledge that the muslim community is quite small in Saint John and many of them are more recent arrivals in a tough financial position. If it is anything like a church, they are reliant on tithing. They make things work as best they can, and I think this residential building could be a great investment for them. Maybe one day they can use that investment for a more purpose-built structure on the current site.

The other Mosque, over East on the Rothesay Road, had an expansion maybe two years ago now and is a fairly good size. That one feels like more of a traditional place of worship. I am not sure whether they are affiliated with one another or belong to separate denominations.

Don't give them any ideas about narrowing it. You can't even make the argument that it is needed for active transportation. There is a nice, big sidewalk on the North Side for the full length, and one on the southern side for a fair portion. Plaza Avenue to Bleury St is missing, but I'd rather follow one of Envision's ideas and build a pedestrian overpass over the highway than spend millions building that. If I lived out that way on the West Side, I'd probably use Manawagonish/Manchester/Dever Road to get around on a bike.


There is potential for several more buildings like this on the Northern side of the road. Take a look at the image below. The L-shaped highlighted lot next to the Mosque is the one for this development, but the empty lot to the North of the Mosque and the one on the corner of O'Brien and Fairville have signs up advertising them for sale (850 Fairville and what would probably be 880 or 890). The corner one has a lot of potential if you ask me. I am not sure what they want for them, but they are actually assessed at a fairly high value for empty lots (400-500K each), unlike elsewhere in the city.

The space behind the small Apple Self Storage building has potential, too. I don't understand why they have the tiny building up there on that huge lot and the storage in the back on a separate lot.



Looking at the building permits another time, there are a few more things. Another 27-unit building is going up on Dunnet Drive. I can't remember what number this is. 20 more units on Highmeadow Drive, I think that empty lot must have sold, which will finish up that area now. The new DOT building by the highway is progressing, and I noticed more site prep when I drove by. Wonder ReCar are constructing a new sales office for $2M. When you drive by it on Rothesay Avenue, you can see they have the back of their lot prepared for this. No shortage of money in second-hand cars these days, it seems.

I also counted one too many zeros on the restaurant at Depot Court; it is only 1M, not 10M. Probably reasonable for a Swiss Chalet?

[RaginRonic]

Originally Posted by bingun

Going back to the CBC article from 2024, it said St Patrick's would be 34 apartments and seven townhouses, and St Vincent's would be 70-80 units, so quite a drop for St Vincent's. I assume the townhouses would be phased separately, but I am less sure about what has changed with St Vincent's. For me, it is less about the raw unit count and more about reoccupying the building and maintaining momentum in the local area.



I think we should be fair about this and acknowledge that the muslim community is quite small in Saint John and many of them are more recent arrivals in a tough financial position. If it is anything like a church, they are reliant on tithing. They make things work as best they can, and I think this residential building could be a great investment for them. Maybe one day they can use that investment for a more purpose-built structure on the current site.

The other Mosque, over East on the Rothesay Road, had an expansion maybe two years ago now and is a fairly good size. That one feels like more of a traditional place of worship. I am not sure whether they are affiliated with one another or belong to separate denominations.

Don't give them any ideas about narrowing it. You can't even make the argument that it is needed for active transportation. There is a nice, big sidewalk on the North Side for the full length, and one on the southern side for a fair portion. Plaza Avenue to Bleury St is missing, but I'd rather follow one of Envision's ideas and build a pedestrian overpass over the highway than spend millions building that. If I lived out that way on the West Side, I'd probably use Manawagonish/Manchester/Dever Road to get around on a bike.


There is potential for several more buildings like this on the Northern side of the road. Take a look at the image below. The L-shaped highlighted lot next to the Mosque is the one for this development, but the empty lot to the North of the Mosque and the one on the corner of O'Brien and Fairville have signs up advertising them for sale (850 Fairville and what would probably be 880 or 890). The corner one has a lot of potential if you ask me. I am not sure what they want for them, but they are actually assessed at a fairly high value for empty lots (400-500K each), unlike elsewhere in the city.

The space behind the small Apple Self Storage building has potential, too. I don't understand why they have the tiny building up there on that huge lot and the storage in the back on a separate lot.



Looking at the building permits another time, there are a few more things. Another 27-unit building is going up on Dunnet Drive. I can't remember what number this is. 20 more units on Highmeadow Drive, I think that empty lot must have sold, which will finish up that area now. The new DOT building by the highway is progressing, and I noticed more site prep when I drove by. Wonder ReCar are constructing a new sales office for $2M. When you drive by it on Rothesay Avenue, you can see they have the back of their lot prepared for this. No shortage of money in second-hand cars these days, it seems.

I also counted one too many zeros on the restaurant at Depot Court; it is only 1M, not 10M. Probably reasonable for a Swiss Chalet?

This is my re-imagination of part of Fairville Boulevard's retail zone. Dice or no dice?

[adamuptownsj]

^ Main Street Irving is independently owned. No consolidation possible. I don't think Big Stops need to be that large... and they aren't typically spread over two distinct gradients. The current footprint of the Fairville Irving site is actually slightly larger than the one on the highway over east.

Honestly, Fairville Boulevard is a bizarre area for residential development. Any downturn will hit apartments like this first, and as they age, they will lack the redeeming features that a strong location would provide. The city should have pushed for more densification further north around Main Street, or even at Lancaster Mall, instead of here.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

^ Main Street Irving is independently owned. No consolidation possible. I don't think Big Stops need to be that large... and they aren't typically spread over two distinct gradients. The current footprint of the Fairville Irving site is actually slightly larger than the one on the highway over east.

Honestly, Fairville Boulevard is a bizarre area for residential development. Any downturn will hit apartments like this first, and as they age, they will lack the redeeming features that a strong location would provide. The city should have pushed for more densification further north around Main Street, or even at Lancaster Mall, instead of here.

Agree with the part about Main Street and Church Ave would be ideal for densification.

Fairville Boulevard is in a weird spot of being too big and too wide to make any meaningful densification. Maybe in the future you could add a harbour trail connection and then have it cross the highway somewhere to go to the nature park. But I don't know where you'd start with making it any different than what it is.

[adamuptownsj]

While I like Harbour Passage extension in principle, the older sections seriously need maintenance, and Fairville Boulevard is about as removed from the port as anything can be... plus it has absolutely zero pedestrian traffic, and never will, outside of certain people's fantasies. Park accessibility is something people theoretically want, but Rockwood is immensely easy to get to, and it's very, very underutilized.

I'd rather they continue attempting to connect Reversing Falls to Uptown to Rockwood.

Here's an easy Fairville improvement: a sidewalk between Burger King and Sobeys. Strange place for one to be missing, since there's sidewalk on both sides all the way to the Route 1 offramp.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Fairville Boulevard is about as removed from the port as anything can be... plus it has absolutely zero pedestrian traffic, and never will, outside of certain people’s fantasies.

Here's an easy Fairville improvement: a sidewalk between Burger King and Sobeys. Strange place for one to be missing, since there's sidewalk on both sides all the way to the Route 1 offramp.

Why bother extending the sidewalk at all if you claim Fairville Boulevard has zero pedestrian traffic, and never will? (This isn’t true btw, not even presently)

I think that building housing right at (and around) Lancaster Mall would be a novel idea, and same thing with at Fairville Plaza. There’s enough room behind Home Hardware to build an apartment building with the same footprint as the Fort Howe Apartments.

This is also the ideal location to build a pedestrian overpass between Molson Ave and Fairville Plaza, as the Province owns all the land on both side of the throughway that would be connected, along with the adjacent ANBL property. There’s room to squeeze in some housing on this provincially owned land too.

[RaginRonic]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

^ Main Street Irving is independently owned. No consolidation possible. I don't think Big Stops need to be that large... and they aren't typically spread over two distinct gradients. The current footprint of the Fairville Irving site is actually slightly larger than the one on the highway over east.

Honestly, Fairville Boulevard is a bizarre area for residential development. Any downturn will hit apartments like this first, and as they age, they will lack the redeeming features that a strong location would provide. The city should have pushed for more densification further north around Main Street, or even at Lancaster Mall, instead of here.

Consolidation could happen if Irving Oil bought out the Main St. West Irving owner.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

^ Main Street Irving is independently owned. No consolidation possible. I don't think Big Stops need to be that large... and they aren't typically spread over two distinct gradients. The current footprint of the Fairville Irving site is actually slightly larger than the one on the highway over east.

Honestly, Fairville Boulevard is a bizarre area for residential development. Any downturn will hit apartments like this first, and as they age, they will lack the redeeming features that a strong location would provide. The city should have pushed for more densification further north around Main Street, or even at Lancaster Mall, instead of here.

I Agree. Fairville Blvd (AKA "The Golden Mile") was always a commercial/light industrial strip.... Lancaster's version of Rothesay Ave. I don't see it's attraction for housing in any way shape or form. To each their own but I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there.

[OliverD]

I could see potential in developing the north side of Fairville between Plaza Ave and O'Brien Street as residential with some mixed-use as well. Being on a transit route and having a grocery store across the street and a bunch of other amenities right there is a good formula for development.

[bingun]

In an ideal world, they wouldn't have started residential development on Fairville, but the cat's out of the bag now between the Aquarius and this new development. As the above post says, we may as well commit at this stage and allow for Kierstead to O'Brien to be mid-rise or high-rise residential.

I hope they don't allow or encourage residential on Rothesay Avenue, I think that would be a bad decision.

To really sort this out, we probably need a 'West Side Plan'. Has there been any mention of whether the city will pivot to another neighbourhood now that the North End is wrapped up? Between East, West, and Millidgeville, I would prefer West by a long shot.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by bingun

In an ideal world, they wouldn't have started residential development on Fairville, but the cat's out of the bag now between the Aquarius and this new development. As the above post says, we may as well commit at this stage and allow for Kierstead to O'Brien to be mid-rise or high-rise residential.

I hope they don't allow or encourage residential on Rothesay Avenue, I think that would be a bad decision.

To really sort this out, we probably need a 'West Side Plan'. Has there been any mention of whether the city will pivot to another neighbourhood now that the North End is wrapped up? Between East, West, and Millidgeville, I would prefer West by a long shot.

I think West needs a plan the most. But East (Ward 4 plus Ward 3 east of March Creek is by FAR the most populated quarter of the city. 33% bigger than West (Ward 1 plus the Lower West). Millidgeville seems to be going on autopilot. West side is stagnant, fragmented into 4 very distinct socioeconomic regions, and kind of directionless.

• The rural/exurban Milford/Lorneville/South Bay/Morna areas, which don't have a ton in common even with each other
• The string of subdivisions along Manawagonish and Manchester
• The older suburbs around Main Street, Lancaster Avenue, and Sand Cove
• The Lower West

Plus

• Several very large industrial concerns along its periphery: the port/barge terminal/cold storage, intermodal yard, mill, brewery, port, industrial park, and generating station
• Tons of natural areas (Spruce Lake/Black Beach/Split Rock, INP and environs, Green Head, miles of public coastline)

The East side lacks a Lower West equivalent. The (Old? Inner?) East Side isn't as nice of an older suburb as, say, Fundy Heights, but it's certainly not a 'priority neighbourhood.' East Side lower-income areas are generally far-flung apartment blocks with little visible decay and dysfunction.

What the East Side needs is some serious public works investments to take some stress of Loch Lomond and connect the various closed off neighbourhoods. Lakewood Heights should really connect to Golden Grove and/or Mountainview, Greenwood to Hillcrest, and Heather Way to Loch Lomond.

[adamuptownsj]

Interesting. Both the letters in opposition to the confusingly numbered 183 Main 15-plex (which has all 5 entrances on Elgin) are from owners of vacant properties adjacent to each other nearby: 160 and 273-175 Main. Very grumpy about the lack of on site parking. Wonder what they'll say about the 54 units down the street.

[adamuptownsj]

In case anyone was wondering what was going on at the Haymarket Square mall (321 City Road), AllNB says Fundy Crossfit is relocating from Bentley Street to the large former bingo hall unit, and Pennfield diner Jonesie's is opening a second location in one of the (3? 4? 5?) strip mall CRUs. Substantial facade upgrades are planned this summer.

https://allnewbrunswick.com/headlines?lineup=new_brunswick&story_key=MjEwODk0

I didn't know Daeres owned it until now. Nice to see some signs of life down there.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

In case anyone was wondering what was going on at the Haymarket Square mall (321 City Road), AllNB says Fundy Crossfit is relocating from Bentley Street to the large former bingo hall unit, and Pennfield diner Jonesie's is opening a second location in one of the (3? 4? 5?) strip mall CRUs. Substantial facade upgrades are planned this summer.

https://allnewbrunswick.com/headlines?lineup=new_brunswick&story_key=MjEwODk0

I didn't know Daeres owned it until now. Nice to see some signs of life down there.

There were rumours of Jonesies in that spot last year, but things have gone quiet ever since, so it's great to hear this is still happening.

Since it's easier to access than the Pennfield location, I could see this being quite popular, especially with social media in play. People love posting their over-the-top burgers and milkshakes, etc.

[darkharbour]

About time something new went in those commercial spaces, the building looks awful these days.

Used to spend a a fair bit of time there as a kid, my mom was always going to Fabricville there and our dentist was in the upper floor above where Crowe's was. Plus the KFC too of course.