NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by ChiND

Getting Penn South would be great, but it's undisputed that that $20B + project is not on the table. In fact, the RFA that's at issue is limited to the existing footprint for Penn.

Agreed, which is why this is almost entirely window dressing.

The absolute best-case scenario is we get expanded Amtrak and NJ Transit waiting space. That's it. Penn South will happen down the road.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Agreed, which is why this is almost entirely window dressing.

The absolute best-case scenario is we get expanded Amtrak and NJ Transit waiting space. That's it. Penn South will happen down the road.

I’d love to see Penn South happen, but the money isn’t there.

[streetscaper]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'd take Janno Lieber over Andy Byford any day. 100x better manager, doesn't self-promote and doesn't switch jobs every two weeks.

I've also never heard Andy Byford claim that Penn doesn't need Penn South.

Well, they both know wayyy more than you. And Janno Lieber (the MTA) AND Andy Byford both think through-running is a positive.

Minute 28 here:
https://www.wnyc.org/story/mta-chair-janno-lieber-on-congestion-pricing-penn-station-and-more/

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

Well, they both know wayyy more than you. And Janno Lieber (the MTA) AND Andy Byford both think through-running is a positive.

Minute 28 here:
https://www.wnyc.org/story/mta-chair-janno-lieber-on-congestion-pricing-penn-station-and-more/

Except no one claimed that thru-running was a negative. No one is anti-thru running, in theory.

And the MTA is not involved in this project. The dominant user of Penn Station has zero involvement.

[ChiND]

We’ll know soon enough what we’re getting. Whatever it is has to be better than what’s currently there.

[mrnyc]

ceo of regional plan association tom wright on penn —


https://www.instagram.com/reel/DX9UtHngAjH/?igsh=OTJ6NGxxYm0zY2Z4

[ChiND]

If the ASTM plan is chosen, the government should spend the money now for Block 780. Penn needs the extra train capacity. Given Trump’s real estate connections and love of New York, he is the only person who could ever get that done. Further, $25 billion is nothing for the federal government.

https://www.duanemorris.com/articles/eminent_domain_back_on_table_for_penn_station_0625.html

Is Eminent Domain Back on the Table for Penn Station?
By Jennifer Polovetsky
June 24, 2025
New York Real Estate Journal

Also, the government should use eminent domain to acquire the putrid garbage that Vornado does not own on the east side of Seventh. Vornado could build a transit entrance at the base of a new residential tower there. That block is execrable per se!

[ChiND]

Hopefully, Trump wil give NY the $25 billion we need for Penn South and ASTM’s revamp of Penn/MSG.

He is the only person that could or would ever direct that amount of money to NY. If we’re not getting through-running from Grand Penn’s plan, then building new tracks on Block 780 is the only way to increase Penn’s urgently needed capacity if ASTM’s plan is chosen. In the words of Elvis: “It’s now or never…”



https://www.6sqft.com/massive-empire-sta...-revamp-penn-station-area-moves-forward/

[ChiND]

Not surprisingly, Halmar won.

Penn South will never happen, and track capacity will remain strained.

Despite the claim for "limited through running," it’s my understanding that it’s virtually impossible with MSG above the tracks.

Unless, the government subsidizes Vornado's office tower, I predict that the 15 Penn site will remain an empty lot for decades like the Alexander's and Rizzoli sites.

https://media.amtrak.com/2026/05/penn-st...am-for-new-york-penn-station-renovation/

[Crawford]

This is excellent news. If the feds really spend $8+ billion and do the Hallmar plan, Amtrak and NJ Transit will have much nicer spaces.

Nothing will really be fixed at Penn until Penn South happens, but that's for another day.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Crawford

This is excellent news. If the feds really spend $8+ billion and do the Hallmar plan, Amtrak and NJ Transit will have much nicer spaces.

Nothing will really be fixed at Penn until Penn South happens, but that's for another day.

Penn South is never going to happen. It would cost around $20b.

I'm curious if the worst arena in sports will still be wrapped in a new facade and if the mid-block entry hall (where the taxi stand is) will still be built. I suspect none of that will occur, as the description of the work appears to be quite limited:

a new grand entrance on Eighth Avenue, an idea pitched three years ago that involved taking out the Hulu Theater and replacing it with an avenue-centered entrance using classical stone rectangular-looking columns;

replacing cramped, decrepit walkways with open concourses;

expanding track capacity, including the "introduction of at least limited through-running on the regional rail network," a key controversial issue about allowing trains to pass through the station instead of terminating there to improve efficiency;

improving retail, signs and other passenger experiences

I would not be surprised if the only exterior change to this vile structure is the replacement of the concrete structure leading to the theater with the addition of columns.



While I oppose heavy taxation, New York should tax the daylights out of MSG. We are stuck with the worst arena in sports for at least another fifty years.

This area will remain the armpit of Manhattan between 96th Street and The Battery.


NYP


https://www.app.com/story/news/transport...lead-developer-amtrak-trump/90180307007/

[mrnyc]

actually msg is the best arena in the world by far —

that is, if you think sound for your events is important.

its just unbeatable.

so warm and full.

of course the outside of msg looks like complete crap.

and the site on which it sits is thee worst.

its quite a yin/yang to brooklyn’s much more newish barclays arena.

barclays has a groovy and modern look outside.

however, inside is cheap crap and the event sound is unfixable god awful.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by ChiND

Penn South is never going to happen. It would cost around $20b.

Penn South will absolutely happen. It's by far the most important transit project in the U.S.

And without Penn South, the new tunnel doesn't have much of a purpose, bc the existing Penn is at capacity.

And $20 billion is not even 1/3 the cost of the airport renovations at JFK, Newark and LGA, which collectively serve far fewer passengers than Penn. And unlike the airports, Penn can generate billions via new Penn District office towers.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Penn South will absolutely happen. It's by far the most important transit project in the U.S.

And without Penn South, the new tunnel doesn't have much of a purpose, bc the existing Penn is at capacity.

And $20 billion is not even 1/3 the cost of the airport renovations at JFK, Newark and LGA, which collectively serve far fewer passengers than Penn. And unlike the airports, Penn can generate billions via new Penn District office towers.

Penn South is not happening since Trump clearly is not pursuing it. NY State does not have $20B, and even if, arguendo, it did, it would cave to community opposition from Block 780. Not only will we be eternally stuck with a lousy station crushed by a filthy arena, but the issue of track congestion will never be solved. I agree that the new tunnel has been rendered superfluous with respect to the issue of congestion.

Byford should resign from this clown show.

[BK1985]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And without Penn South, the new tunnel doesn't have much of a purpose, bc the existing Penn is at capacity.

the existing tunnel is falling apart, that alone is purpose enough IMO

[ChiND]

Apparently, the theatre isn’t even coming down.

The proposal doesn’t move Madison Square Garden, nor does it require demolishing the Hulu Theater.

https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/20...eveloper-for-penn-station-transformation


New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

[DCReid]

I don't know if this is the actual design, but if it is, at least it looks nice:

https://www.bisnow.com/new-york/news/inf...a-vornado-8b-penn-station-rebuild-134676

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by DCReid

I don't know if this is the actual design, but if it is, at least it looks nice:

https://www.bisnow.com/new-york/news/inf...a-vornado-8b-penn-station-rebuild-134676

That's the old design. The new one has not been disclosed, though Sean Doofy said that there will be rectangular columns along a new Eighth Avenue entrance.

New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by ChiND

Penn South is not happening since Trump clearly is not pursuing it. NY State does not have $20B, and even if, arguendo, it did, it would cave to community opposition from Block 780. Not only will we be eternally stuck with a lousy station crushed by a filthy arena, but the issue of track congestion will never be solved. I agree that the new tunnel has been rendered superfluous with respect to the issue of congestion.

Byford should resign from this clown show.

That Block is going with or without the station...trumps friend wants to level the whole thing for redevelopment.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

That Block is going with or without the station...trumps friend wants to level the whole thing for redevelopment.

I doubt that Vornado can buy all of those privately-held properties on 31st Street. They would need an exercise of eminent domain. NY is not going to exercise its eminent domain powers. I had hoped that the federal government would, but since their aims for this project are clearly de minimis, they’re certainly not going to engage in such a huge undertaking. This project is an absolute joke.

New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.