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  #1281  
Old Posted May 19, 2026, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Because many groups in the United States, as a culture, spend money as soon as they make it on stupid stuff like drugs, alcohol, gambling, car stereos, dumb trips, etc. The cultures that save money (Jewish, German Catholic, most Asians, etc.) are endlessly mocked by the people who are broke.

A good chunk of the U.S. population busies itself with scamming government programs, scamming their landlords, scamming their employers. They cause problems just to file slip & fall lawsuits. They appear as "poor" in the data because they are and they're poor entirely because of the way they choose to live their lives.

For example, two years ago I was spraying weed killer at one of my properties and a poor mother instructed her kid to put his hands into the weed killer I just sprayed. She then started yelling at me and called the police. I got in my car and left. Luckily I have not seen her since.
So you're agreeing that the US GDP per capita, income, making money are completely irrelevant to this discussion? Gambling, overdoses, plastic, stuff, overworking is not "wealth".
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  #1282  
Old Posted May 19, 2026, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Because many groups in the United States, as a culture, spend money as soon as they make it on stupid stuff like drugs, alcohol, gambling, car stereos, dumb trips, etc.
And beyond those common lower class vice traps, the US is a very social status conscious society, and for many people higher up on the socioeconomic ladder, they often fall deeply into debt attempting to keep up with the Jones'.

A lot of people in this country desperately desire to live as loud and large as they can (or can't, really).

They need everyone else to notice how "successful" and marvelous they are.



I don't know where that insecurity comes from, but thank god I don't have it.

I've met other people.

They're idiots.

Why the fuck would I ever care if they're impressed with me or not?

The only person I've ever wanted to impress is myself.



Small, quiet and slow is the way to go.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 19, 2026 at 5:42 PM.
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  #1283  
Old Posted May 19, 2026, 6:43 PM
montréaliste montréaliste is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
And beyond those common lower class vice traps, the US is a very social status conscious society, and for many people higher up on the socioeconomic ladder, they often fall deeply into debt attempting to keep up with the Jones'.

A lot of people in this country desperately desire to live as loud and large as they can (or can't, really).

They need everyone else to notice how "successful" and marvelous they are.



I don't know where that insecurity comes from, but thank god I don't have it.

I've met other people.

They're idiots.

Why the fuck would I ever care if they're impressed with me or not?

The only person I've ever wanted to impress is myself.



Small, quiet and slow is the way to go.


Whatever rocks one's boat. You can't fathom the way I felt upon getting my First helipad.
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  #1284  
Old Posted May 19, 2026, 7:06 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
This is MEDIAN disposable income (after taxes and social benefits), equivalized (i.e. it accounts for economies of scale in larger households), in PPP US dollars, in 2022, from the OECD:
- Luxembourg: 64,252
- Switzerland: 53,395
- USA: 46,410
- Belgium: 46,200
- Canada: 46,108
- Netherlands: 44,431
- Denmark: 44,152
- South Korea: 43,927
- Germany: 41,361
- Sweden: 41,254
- France: 40,067
- Australia: 39,072 (in 2020)
- New Zealand: 39,040
- Italy: 37,234
- Spain: 35,821
- UK: 35,595
- Czech Republic: 31,240
- Poland: 31,196
- Japan: 25,737 (in 2021)
- Turkey: 12,606
- Mexico: 9,320
- Brazil: 9,239

So no, even when taking into account the wealth inequalities, in median terms the average American is richer than most other people. But Luxembourg and Switzerland, which are French-speaking, are richer than the US, and Belgium is almost as rich, so the original comment was ridiculous.

UK is pretty low. Japan super low. On the other hand, Canada is higher than I would have imagined (but then that's 2022, before Trudeau's insane intakes of immigrants, so the figure now for Canada would be lower). Turkey still quite poor (despite the fact its GDP per capita, which is an average, shows it almost at Eastern European levels).
Does this factor in healthcare contributions for the U.S.?
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  #1285  
Old Posted May 19, 2026, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Only 600 USD in rent?? With that little, you can only rent a tiny student room of 160 sq feet in Paris, on the 7th floor without elevator.

Even in London, even in a flat share, I can't see how it's possible (unless it's council estate). When I lived in London, and that was years ago, I think I paid like £125 per week for one room in a flatshare (so 700 USD per month). It should be at the very least 1,000 USD now, or even 1,200 USD.


Again, the Tube costs far more than that. So that means you must use buses only.


Only $70 per week for food? What do you eat???

I Paris I spend 23 USD per DAY in food, and that doesn't include eating out. Only buying food in the supermarkets. Not luxury food, but good food (which you can find in French supermarkets, whereas in the US/UK you'd have to go to gourmet stores to find the same quality as in French supermarkets).

70 USD per week is 10 USD per day. That can only be industrial, low-quality food from the cheapest chains like Lidl, which is both unhealthy and not tasty.

As for eating out, the cheapest I know in Paris is 16 USD (tax and tip included), in Asian restaurants. And then from there it escalates quickly (French meal in an average place is more like 35-40 USD tax and tip included). Boulangeries in the central areas have become extortionate (like 8 USD for a sandwich... exCUSE me??). Thanks God I'm fortunate to live in a wealthy neighborhood that surprisingly has a very cheap (and yet excellent) boulangerie, where you can, for example, still buy a delicious homemade pizza for 1 person with merguez and peppers for the grand total of... 4.80 USD tax included (the same in a boulangerie in, say, Le Marais, or St Germain des Prés, would cost 7 or 8 USD). My boulangerie also has delicious little one-person homemade apricot tart with delicious puff pastry and fresh apricots (and a stuffing of grounded almond cream) for the grand total of... 3.70 USD tax included, but it's impossible to find such a good deal at such a cheap price anywhere else in the central areas of Paris.

Gym costs only 24 USD per month now that we have that low-cost Dutch chain everywhere (before, I used to pay 70 USD per month in a more upscale chain), but the downside of it is you're surrounded by 16-22 y/o kids all the time who speak in their obnoxious lingo at super fast speed and never talk to you.

Yep, I live with my partner and share a bedroom, so our rent is effectively halved. It's normally $1200 a room inc. service fees, (we still pay the bills and council tax on top of that) -for 700 sq ft and sharing with one other person.

It's an ugly AF ex-council estate, but was converted in the 90s for the middle classes, with concierges, gym, pool, jacuzzi, gym, conservatory and landscaped grounds (they're very 'retro' shall we say in styling, but all free).

Right by Clapham Junction Station, 10 mins train into the centre leaving every 5 mins, 25-30 mins to get to work.
By train/tube it would normally cost $11.50 a day on my annual pass, which I did for years before I realised 5-10 mins longer on the bus saved almost 2/3 of that cost, and I got a seat with a view every time.





In terms of food, the supermarkets are super cheap here - I live near the second cheapest chain, Lidl, and I only cook about 8 meals a week. I have to admit I eat out alot, so consider my $70 with a pinch of salt, I double that from going out, and lunch at work is subsidized to about $6 a day. Although restaurants aren't an essential 'cost' persay and I put it under leisure, you can say I spend about $170 a week on food. It can of course be a lot cheaper if I refrained.

Restaurants are expensive nowadays, about $20 for a main (before service, even for a Nandos) but the cheap eats are what I go for - the same sit down, fantastic fare but outside Zone 1, and invariably ethnic from across the spectrum. It's often better than in the centre too -yesterday I bought a dinner from an Albanian place and lunch from a Muslim Thai place, essentially so I could try their little-known cuisines, and they were both great. My local gastropubs which are quite pricey, also do half price deals each day, and the food so far has been amazing. I find the other places in my area are hit n miss price-wise, the cheaper ones -Somali, Vietnamese, Lebanese, Thai, Neapolitan, fish n chips, Turkish and Bangladeshi are much better than the expensive chains, bakeries and posh nosh.

Another thing worth mentioning though is my bills skyrocket in winter. Over the years we've worked out incorrect wiring is costing us a huge amount to barely heat the place.

Last edited by muppet; May 21, 2026 at 5:24 AM.
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  #1286  
Old Posted May 19, 2026, 10:20 PM
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$1200 is hella cheap for London even Zone 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
And beyond those common lower class vice traps, the US is a very social status conscious society, and for many people higher up on the socioeconomic ladder, they often fall deeply into debt attempting to keep up with the Jones'.

A lot of people in this country desperately desire to live as loud and large as they can (or can't, really).

They need everyone else to notice how "successful" and marvelous they are.



I don't know where that insecurity comes from, but thank god I don't have it.

I've met other people.

They're idiots.

Why the fuck would I ever care if they're impressed with me or not?

The only person I've ever wanted to impress is myself.



Small, quiet and slow is the way to go.
Keeping up with the Joneses has always been a trap. That's one thing I did notice about Europe, they are generally as well off as Americans but typically live within their means so they look 'poorer' because they don't have the latest and greatest.
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  #1287  
Old Posted May 19, 2026, 11:09 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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I don't think they look poorer at all. Generally they look fitter and more stylish in my experience, though that's mostly in Western Europe and mostly in cities or other non-poor areas.
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  #1288  
Old Posted May 19, 2026, 11:51 PM
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I'm talking about lifestyles. Europeans tend to consume less and live more within their means compared to Americans; smaller houses, cars, and "stuff" in general.
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  #1289  
Old Posted May 19, 2026, 11:52 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Originally Posted by montréaliste View Post
Whatever rocks one's boat. You can't fathom the way I felt upon getting my First helipad.
Caviar osciètre, back when Russia allowed the real wild sort to be sold on the market, was a great experience I must say. We have one of the best caviar houses in the world in Paris, Petrossian, White Russians (Armenians in fact) who left Russia after the civil war. I bought some once for my parents for Christmas, at an extortionate price, but you live only once.

Now, unfortunately, all wild caviar is outlawed until such a day when the sturgeon population in the Caspian will be replenished. And farmed caviar is simply not the same (I bought some once, and it was meh...).

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  #1290  
Old Posted May 20, 2026, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
Right by Clapham Junction Station
Clapham Junction was my definition of Hell when I lived in London. The sight of masses of people waiting for the Tube (or train?) on the platforms there in the open air in the early morning on a gray, depressing winter day was enough to push a normal person to hang oneself... And to think some people commute under the sun and palm trees in LA or San Diego...

Not all human beings are equal really.

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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
yesterday I bought a dinner from an Albanian place and lunch from a Muslim Thai place, essentially so I could try their little-known cuisines, and they were both great.
Well on Thursday I'm going to a Michelin-starred restaurant in the garden of a priory in the south of France where the entire meal plus wine will cost 62 USD tax and tip included. Try to beat that! Weather is going to be gorgeous for eating outside (as opposed to constant cloud and rain these past days in Paris/London).
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  #1291  
Old Posted May 20, 2026, 12:17 AM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I'm talking about lifestyles. Europeans tend to consume less and live more within their means compared to Americans; smaller houses, cars, and "stuff" in general.
Each European country is different, so you can't generalize. In France for instance people live in US-style suburbs and like large houses. In England they live in tiny apartments (or "flats" as they call them), or "maisonettes" if it's not a flat. When I was 14 y/o and we did a language trip to England with my class as is often the case in Europe, we stayed in host families, and I was frankly shocked to see how small were the dwellings of English people compared to our dwellings in France. Everything looked miniature.

On the plus side, the interior of their dwellings are more cosy than ours. On the down side, their food is, well, you know...

In Spain people live in apartments, there are very few detached houses and villas (except for tourists).

In Eastern Europe they live a lot in commie blocks.

Each European country is different, but in general, in terms of suburbs France is the most Americanized (except, as I've already said, the interior of houses is not as neat and properly maintained as in the US).
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  #1292  
Old Posted May 20, 2026, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
. The sight of masses of people waiting for the Tube (or train?) on the platforms there in the open air in the early morning on a gray winter day
Gray and 50 is my all-time favorite commuting weather.

Not too warm

Not too cool.

Goldilocks zone!!!!!
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  #1293  
Old Posted May 20, 2026, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I'm talking about lifestyles. Europeans tend to consume less and live more within their means compared to Americans; smaller houses, cars, and "stuff" in general.
They can have fantastic quality of life without a lot of things. Walkability, transit, fantastic intercity rail, nearby high streets, functional "third places," ...
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  #1294  
Old Posted May 20, 2026, 12:58 AM
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Gray and 50 is my all-time favorite commuting weather.
Yeah, but London is 670 miles more to the north than Chicago. So picture a gray day in northern Ontario, way more north than Lake Superior. It's DARK, ugly, miserable. It's like day and night are almost the same sometimes when the clouds almost touch the soil. And temperature is more like in the 40s, not in the 50s. And windy. It's always windy in London.

And you know you have 4/5 more months of that before finally a little bit of sunshine.

In fact in England sometimes even in mid-June it can be gray and miserable. Check the parade they had with the queen on the Thames in June before the London Olympic Games. It was mid-June, and it looks like winter. Gray, dark, temperature in the 50s.

Usually Londoners reassure themselves by telling each other how much worse it is in Glasgow. I've heard it several times. What a comfort!
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  #1295  
Old Posted May 20, 2026, 1:13 AM
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They can have fantastic quality of life without a lot of things. Walkability, transit, fantastic intercity rail, nearby high streets, functional "third places," ...
Sure they can but the average American who lives with more excess in life sees it differently so "we" assume they are poorer. Living in the 7th Arr. in Paris or somewhere near Covent Garden in London would be ideal for me. Even if it mean more modest accommodations.
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  #1296  
Old Posted May 20, 2026, 1:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Gray and 50 is my all-time favorite commuting weather.

Not too warm

Not too cool.

Goldilocks zone!!!!!
Yup. Blazing sun means sunglasses, sunscreen and perhaps hat required, and refusal means premature aging and skin cancer. Love me some overcast 50's and 60's. Could not live in San Diego except within two miles of ocean. Would happily take Paris weather over San Diego. And misty rain is the coziest weather.
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  #1297  
Old Posted May 20, 2026, 5:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
$1200 is hella cheap for London even Zone 2



Keeping up with the Joneses has always been a trap. That's one thing I did notice about Europe, they are generally as well off as Americans but typically live within their means so they look 'poorer' because they don't have the latest and greatest.
In Europe it's weird that you really can't tell people's income. Many of the poorest people I know are uni graduates and creatives, and when they're not in their waiting staff/ shop uniforms they look the bees knees. In our 1000+ staff party, when the cleaners and security guards join in they will also scrub up - the spend on clothing and make-up is highest in some of the poorest sectors of the country (which may also account for why they're so hard up), usually highlighted by calcified layers of make up. We're talking northeners, Essex girls, younger Caribbean women, older West African women, teenage girls, trainer-mad boys who can end up having the opposite effect.

For example on a night out they will spend a fortune on making themselves look like sex workers. This kinda thing has recently taken over the city centre, that's targetting the suburbanites.



https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5cu8XWydMi/


Whereas before it was more hipster and anything goes, little difference from what they wore in daytime





Adversely many of the rich I know do the stealth wealth thing (not even the classic old money/ dark academia look), which would be a mix of athleisure, plain tops and expensive bottoms (read: same as any other pair of jeans, trousers or skirts).

Some of my friends work in luxury and they can see them coming a mile off -the ones with labels everywhere, who'll walk in demanding service and treating people like servants in order to get a button -they are not rich. While those popping in looking utterly generic or out of work, will set off the alarm bells -because they know they'll order half the place up without fuss.

Ludicrously, some people who work in the shop are super rich -the kind with houses in Belgravia/ Knightsbridge and walk to work coz it's round the corner. They're there to socialise, get with the commoners, and away from the IT girls and tech bros.

Basically the richer the region, the less they flaunt their wealth. This is starting to apply even in Eastern Europe -when you look at it, it's been quite a few decades and generations where they've enjoyed EU level prosperity, and gone are the days when the nouveaux riches wore tacky labels and acted like they owned everyone.

A few years ago this scene would have been garden party/ wedding vibes, rather than Polish aristos on a day out:


Last edited by muppet; May 20, 2026 at 5:56 PM.
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  #1298  
Old Posted May 20, 2026, 6:21 AM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Yeah, but London is 670 miles more to the north than Chicago. So picture a gray day in northern Ontario, way more north than Lake Superior. It's DARK, ugly, miserable. It's like day and night are almost the same sometimes when the clouds almost touch the soil. And temperature is more like in the 40s, not in the 50s. And windy. It's always windy in London.

And you know you have 4/5 more months of that before finally a little bit of sunshine.

In fact in England sometimes even in mid-June it can be gray and miserable. Check the parade they had with the queen on the Thames in June before the London Olympic Games. It was mid-June, and it looks like winter. Gray, dark, temperature in the 50s.

Usually Londoners reassure themselves by telling each other how much worse it is in Glasgow. I've heard it several times. What a comfort!

LUCKILY we get the Gulf Flow transporting warm air and ocean currents from the Caribbean, which means we get mild temperatures across NW Europe, and not the tundra of northern Canada. And why palm trees are such a thing here, ever since they discovered they survived the surprisingly mild winters -even in Western Scotland:




Sadly, London has started uprooting them as we're all meant to be eco-friendly and not planting invasive species



It is however grey and overcast alot -but not that windy -first I've heard of it? And it would be a misrepresentation to report it's like never sunny and the 'clouds touch the ground'. I mean I do joke the same, but we do actually get a summer and average about 7 hrs a day, with often less rainfall than Mexico City, Melbourne, Tel Aviv (as the driest part of the country, in a chalk valley).

I mean come on, every year we hit the 90s for at least a week or two, and why there are so many memes on how much more unbearable it is -the tube, the housing, the humidity and lack of AC, all designed to retain heat makes it feel doubly worse and literally kills hundreds of people. It costs the local economy about $270m a year.

London is one of the worst urban heat islands in the world, and why 25C genuinely feels like 40C (77F to 104F) -the effect raises the temperature about 15C (60F), and can double on the surfaces of the brick, steel and asphalt. This is why Australians and Indians complain it's hotter here -the humidity, the brick, the insulation, the lack of ventilation.

In this vid, on a normal summer's day they measure the radiation coming off a normal surfaces at 32C (90F), and 48C (118F) off a brick one. Meanwhile ventilation shafts pump out 40C (104F) air into the street:

Video Link


^Now imagine what it's like on a genuine heatwave day, and why thousands die each time.


We do however get a little-studied phenomenon of a decade of grey (eg 1970s -80s, 2010s) followed by a decade of drought (90s, noughties), like a regional El Nino for the Gulf Flow. In the latter years we technically fall into semi-arid territory, and the Thames becomes the cleanest urban waterway in the world (as there is so little rain runoff). My teenage and young adult years were always marked by dreary winters and glorious summers, which has recently started up again.

These years the parks become dustbowls en masse, no longer the patchwork of crowds, sunbathers and picnics:









Wildfires become a hazard if it heads over 35C / 95F. One of my friends has a house facing a common (wild grassland area), and he constantly has to worry. In 2022, when it hit 40C/ 104F it started burning but luckily stopped at his road -the low winds that year avoided what the papers said might have been 'the second Great Fire of London', as over 100 fires broke out in one day and they were inundated with 1,100 incidents. Over half the city is open green area, with low rainfall.

Basically the region is just not designed for global warming.




IN short, London has a bad rep for bad or rainy weather by dint of it being the capital of the UK -the western half of the country and Ireland, is indeed very wet, facing the Atlantic. The eastern half (where London is), much less.

Last edited by muppet; May 21, 2026 at 5:35 AM.
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  #1299  
Old Posted May 20, 2026, 6:27 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
And beyond those common lower class vice traps, the US is a very social status conscious society, and for many people higher up on the socioeconomic ladder, they often fall deeply into debt attempting to keep up with the Jones'.
I disagree since the country is so multi-cultural that what counts as "high status" for one type of person doesn't register for another. Large segments of the U.S. population reject commercialism but are ridiculed endlessly by TV, movies, comedians, etc.
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  #1300  
Old Posted May 20, 2026, 12:06 PM
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^ You diasgree that a lot of middle and upper middle class americans fall into the debt trap of trying to keep up with the Jonses???

We inhabit very different societies.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 20, 2026 at 1:44 PM.
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