CHICAGO | Da Bears | Now these shitheads wanna drive their clown car over to Indiana?

[2PRUROCKS!]

The link to FOX 32 from the post by OhioGuy seems to answer my questions about seating positively.

"The proposal calls for increasing capacity to about 72,000 seats. That includes about 1,800 new seats from added luxury suites and another 8,700 general seating spots."

[twister244]

I've literally lost track of all of the renderings and proposals for this soap opera.......

[chi_raven]

Originally Posted by 2PRUROCKS!

The link to FOX 32 from the post by OhioGuy seems to answer my questions about seating positively.

"The proposal calls for increasing capacity to about 72,000 seats. That includes about 1,800 new seats from added luxury suites and another 8,700 general seating spots."

The details I have seen about other proposals had those higher capacity numbers only for special events like the Super Bowl and Final Four. For regular events the capacity was about the same as Soldier Field. I wonder if that fine print applies to this proposal as well.

[left of center]

The clear ETFE roof looks very cool, and would very likely be much cheaper to build than an actual dome, however the tradeoff in cheaper construction cost would be the astronomical costs in keeping the stadium cool in the summer since the roof would act as a greenhouse. The Bears usually play in cooler months, so not necessarily a problem for the team itself, but if they want to use the stadium year round then it would make cooling the space for summer concerts a significant issue. Just look at the mess heating and cooling the old Thompson Center was with the single pane glass.

The other issue is stadium ownership. The Bears want to own their future stadium so they can make money off of hosting year round events. Since SF is owned by the city (and would presumably remain as such) this might be a non starter for the team, even if they'd own the development over LSD and the IC/Metra tracks.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by left of center

The clear ETFE roof looks very cool, and would very likely be much cheaper to build than an actual dome, however the tradeoff in cheaper construction cost would be the astronomical costs in keeping the stadium cool in the summer since the roof would act as a greenhouse. The Bears usually play in cooler months, so not necessarily a problem for the team itself, but if they want to use the stadium year round then it would make cooling the space for summer concerts a significant issue. Just look at the mess heating and cooling the old Thompson Center was with the single pane glass.

This is true for USBank Stadium in Minneapolis too. You end up saving money on the operable roof, but then you need to spend money on a bunch of huge operable walls to bring in fresh air/breezes.

[2PRUROCKS!]

Interview with Edward Peck about his design for Soldier Field:

https://youtu.be/iJKz0elKPho?si=UpV9NbjcB7AFws8i

[Klippenstein]

^Thanks for sharing that. At first glance, I didn't realize it was capping and expanding the current Soldier Field. Interesting proposal if it's actually viable.

[twister244]

Am I the only pissed about the State House passing a bill that essentially gives the Bears a property tax handout for leaving the city to go the AH? Or is there a balance between the special payment they need to make that offsets the taxes they would otherwise gain?

Either way, this whole saga has left such a sour taste in my mouth.

[Randomguy34]

I'm frustrated but accepted it once the general assembly and even Pritzker started folding after the Bears said they'd move to Indiana.

What I'm really pissed about is that Bob Dunn and Justin Ishbia came out of nowhere asking for the same thing for their respective projects

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by twister244

Am I the only pissed about the State House passing a bill that essentially gives the Bears a property tax handout for leaving the city to go the AH? Or is there a balance between the special payment they need to make that offsets the taxes they would otherwise gain?

Either way, this whole saga has left such a sour taste in my mouth.

Depends. There's a big part of this that feels like kabuki theater. Pass a bill in the House and let it die in the Senate.

First of all, I don't think the Bears are too happy with this bill. No infrastructure or construction funding. Also, any residential construction on a megaproject outside Chicago voids the entire deal. So, uh, the entire proposed Arlington mixed use stadium neighborhood doesn't qualify as a megaproject.

The Bears press release is frosty.

We welcome the progress made on the House’s version of the mega project bill; however, additional amendments are necessary to make the Arlington Heights site feasible for our stadium project.  We support Illinois leaders as they determine the path forward to making the essential changes to the mega project bill and aligning on infrastructure funding."

Secondly, the Senate president saying he's in no rush, and Pritzker being neutral make me rather skeptical of things moving forward.

The only party that got everything they wanted out of the bill was... Bob Dunn for One Central. And Ishbia, I suppose, is looking at train yards seeing if he could qualify for the same benefit.

The whole thing is just weird.

[left of center]

I wonder if the McCaskey's and the Bears organization burned all their bridges in Springfield and now the state government doesn't give a flying f$%#& if they move out of state? Maybe having Indiana pay for a brand new stadium right on the state line and immediately adjacent to Chicago city limits isn't so optically bad for Illinois politicians? Maybe the IL legislators know that NWI is a poor site for the Bears in relation to where most of their fans (and the wealthiest ones at that) actually live, and are confident that this is more of a bluff than the Bears initially let on?

I second that this whole situation comes off as weird. That said, I am no fan of how the Bears have handled this whole situation, so I am fine with Pritzker and Springfield stringing these world class clowns along.

[WestTowner]

Originally Posted by left of center

Maybe the IL legislators know that NWI is a poor site for the Bears in relation to where most of their fans (and the wealthiest ones at that) actually live, and are confident that this is more of a bluff than the Bears initially let on?
.

100% this. The damage to the brand moving between a oil refinery and a steel plant is hard to quantify. They'll turn off a decent chunk of the fan base. Especially the north burbs fans who can actually afford the PSLs. The value of the franchise will take a hit. Tough for the McCaskeys since I'll guess the grandkids are tired of being centi-millionaires on paper only.

[VKChaz]

Originally Posted by left of center

I wonder if the McCaskey's and the Bears organization burned all their bridges in Springfield and now the state government doesn't give a flying f$%#& if they move out of state? Maybe having Indiana pay for a brand new stadium right on the state line and immediately adjacent to Chicago city limits isn't so optically bad for Illinois politicians? Maybe the IL legislators know that NWI is a poor site for the Bears in relation to where most of their fans (and the wealthiest ones at that) actually live, and are confident that this is more of a bluff than the Bears initially let on?

I second that this whole situation comes off as weird. That said, I am no fan of how the Bears have handled this whole situation, so I am fine with Pritzker and Springfield stringing these world class clowns along.

Politics of it all is interesting. If the pendulum has swung and politicians now feel constructing stadiums makes them look like suckers, it would help them to grow a spine. Would also help if the media would reject the continual framing that politicians risk 'losing a team'. And the KC Chiefs planning to move across the border to Kansas could make it all seem more acceptable.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by twister244

Am I the only pissed about the State House passing a bill that essentially gives the Bears a property tax handout for leaving the city to go the AH? Or is there a balance between the special payment they need to make that offsets the taxes they would otherwise gain?

Well, the Bears pay zero property taxes at Soldier Field since it's publicly-owned. And if they go to Indiana, they will also pay no property taxes in Illinois.

Originally Posted by galleyfox

First of all, I don't think the Bears are too happy with this bill. No infrastructure or construction funding. Also, any residential construction on a megaproject outside Chicago voids the entire deal. So, uh, the entire proposed Arlington mixed use stadium neighborhood doesn't qualify as a megaproject.

Well, the Bears aren't gonna get everything they want. From Pritzker's standpoint, he wants the Bears to be grumbling about their "bum deal" or it looks like he caved. I think the state does have a lot of leverage here. It's clear that all things equal, the team prefers AH over Hammond since it's a superior location and they already own the land. Now the team needs to crunch the numbers again and see if they can live with the terms that Illinois is offering.

As for the resi provision - this makes sense. For most suburban areas, the school system is the biggest user of property tax funding. If the state allowed residential developments to qualify as megaprojects, then any developer putting up a big subdivision could qualify at the $100M tier and they could wriggle out of property tax payments that largely fund the schools even as they add hundreds of new students. That drama is playing out right now for the Ivanhoe development in Mundelein. So either the Bears can draw some creative boundaries and accept paying full property taxes on residential/mixed-use parcels, or they can just build a shitty Rosemont-style village that is all dining/entertainment and retail.

The only party that got everything they wanted out of the bill was... Bob Dunn for One Central. And Ishbia, I suppose, is looking at train yards seeing if he could qualify for the same benefit.

The whole thing is just weird.

I mean, this is clearly Pritzker (and Kam Buckner) trying to make this into a broader state policy for incentives so they don't need to have these one-off negotiations with every sports team and developer looking for a handout. Those have been major distractions in Springfield the past few years.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Well, the Bears pay zero property taxes at Soldier Field since it's publicly-owned. And if they go to Indiana, they will also pay no property taxes in Illinois.

So? In a perfect world, none of that would be happening. I get tax incentives have a useful purpose, but for an NFL stadium, it's a total waste. I know I'm being stubborn here, but there's a reason.....

Using tax incentives for mega projects that will actually feed back into the tax base through development is totally fine, but an NFL stadium in AH won't do this. Nor would an NFL stadium in Indiana do it. Maybe the stadium will attract a few concerts/events where Allstate Arena can't handle the crowds a few times a year, but that's it.

I'm very hard pressed to see how a magical entertainment district is going to just magically sprout out of the ground around a massive NFL stadium in.... Arlington Heights of all places. People who will want to live somewhat close to the stadium won't plant right next to this because there's just nothing immediately around it. People will instead locate to downtown Palatine or Arlington Heights where there is already walkable neighborhoods they can meander over from before/after a game. On the other side of 53 from this area - It's all industrial.

I just see the Bears trying to score as much money as possible to build a massive stadium that will sit empty 95% of the year with a sea of parking lots around it.

So no - I'm 100% against any tax incentives for this. It's not going to spur some magical unicorn kingdom of walkable urban life around it out by where Arlington Park used to stand.......

[left of center]

You've nailed the whole argument against massive sports stadiums on the head. They are not the drivers of spending, government revenue, and investment everyone makes them out to be. If the Bears aren't in Chicago, fans will still spend their disposable income on watching the Bears at a bar or on entirely other sports or even non sport spending, and the city and state will still earn tax dollars from that substituted spending.

I am all for this megaprojects bill in order to help Illinois land new development that might otherwise be syphoned off by other states, because that would be an overall net win for the state's economy and budget revenue. The Bears however, are not. They can pay for their AH stadium, or they can move to Indiana. Bye, Felicia.

[DCReid]

Seems like the NFL is saying that it's either Arlington Heights or Indiana...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/rep...d=69f384e8c4a34dfaa050abeaa89088bf&ei=16

[twister244]

At this point, I really don't even care anymore where the Bears build...... It's pretty obvious they don't give a shit about staying in the city, so fuck em I say.... I care more about how the city will keep Soldier Field a great outdoor venue for everything not NFL games.

[Jstange059]

They can build wherever they want to build, as long as we aren't giving them hundreds of millions or billions of dollars of taxpayer funding

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Jstange059

They can build wherever they want to build, as long as we aren't giving them hundreds of millions or billions of dollars of taxpayer funding

I guess it's almost an attitude I have at this point of - I want them to leave the city now.

These guys have been nothing but greedy dicks the entire time, with ZERO thought about what implications the Bears leaving the city for AH or Indiana has for both the city and the fans. They have calculated that fans are gonna show up to games no matter where they build, so they are just looking for the best handout without giving any thoughts about what this means for their brand in the long run.

I have no problem with the profit motive, but if they were at least trying to put an effort in to stay near downtown knowing it feeds back into city growth, I would feel much differently.