Highway 174

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Speaking of the part between Trim Road and Rockland, does anyone know (or has anyone wondered) why back in the days MTO constructed Highway 417 from scratch instead of just twinning 17 along Ottawa River? From the discussion, it seems that if the latter were done instead, traffic on that segment wouldn't have been that much of a gong show today.

I've always wondered that too. I think I've read before that the southern alignment via Casselman was cheaper. Another possibility is that it made the connection to Cornwall via Highway 138 quicker.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I've always wondered that too. I think I've read before that the southern alignment via Casselman was cheaper. Another possibility is that it made the connection to Cornwall via Highway 138 quicker.

It's such an indirect routing too.

They could have opted for the Russell Road corridor for a good bit going east, then skirted up towards Caledonia Springs and Vankleek Hill, and then meet up with where the 17 and 417 become one road today.

This route would have more direct than either the 17 or 417 routings, wasn't necessarily more built up, and also avoids the Larose Forest and Alfred Bog sensitive areas.

[1overcosc]

If they had built the 417 along the 17 corridor it would have made for an interesting change in development patterns. The sprawl we're currently seeing in places like Embrun and Limoges probably wouldn't have happened (as their access to the city would be much shittier). The cluster of big box stores at the junction of Innes and the 417 probably would have never been built; in its place the Gloucester Centre would likely be more developed. Rockland and Cumberland would probably be far bigger than they are today, with Cumberland likely becoming a sort of 'extension' of Orleans much like how Stittsville became an extension of Kanata. It's even possible that Barrhaven and Riverside South would be less developed than they are today, as the east end areas of Orleans, Cumberland, etc. would have been able to grow more.

I'm not sure if that would be a better world or a worse one.

[daud]

There was some discussion on this 417 alignment on another thread (or maybe this one way way back). As it is, we probably have an extra 20 minutes of driving due to the routing of 417/40.

In the previous discussion, I found it interesting...Someone mentioned, the 417 route was chosen with Cornwall in mind and on the Quebec Side, the 40 routing was chosen with a bridge at Pointe-Fortune in mind to connect to highway 50.

Both decisions resulted in this loopy longer route we have which I figure is about 15-20 extra minutes travel time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by daud

There was some discussion on this 417 alignment on another thread (or maybe this one way way back). As it is, we probably have an extra 20 minutes of driving due to the routing of 417/40.

In the previous discussion, I found it interesting...Someone mentioned, the 417 route was chosen with Cornwall in mind and on the Quebec Side, the 40 routing was chosen with a bridge at Pointe-Fortune in mind to connect to highway 50.

Both decisions resulted in this loopy longer route we have which I figure is about 15-20 extra minutes travel time.

That makes sense for the Ontario routing that dips southward, but not for the Quebec routing which is built fairly close to the historic Montreal-Ottawa road near the river. (There was talk of a bridge at Pointe-Fortune it is true, but that's not the main reason for the routing.)

That old Montreal-Ottawa road was known as Highway 17 in both provinces (yes Ontario and Quebec had highway numbers in common at one point).

Quebec built the A-40 to the Ontario border as early as 1966. From the border it followed the old Quebec Highway 17 routing for quite some distance, and then A-40 veers a bit to the northeast to the big bridge at Vaudreuil.

The old Quebec Highway 17 used to continue along a more southeastern route into Vaudreuil and Dorion, where it met up with the highway coming in from Toronto, and then the road went into Montreal.

Ontario did not build the divided Highway 417 across rural Eastern Ontario until a decade or more after Quebec completed A-40 to the border in 1966. And so for many years the drive from Ottawa to Montreal was on the four-lane Queensway (Highway 17) to the Montreal Road, exit, then a two lane Highway 17 through Orleans, Cumberland, Rockland, etc. to the Quebec border at Pointe-Fortune where the A-40 expressway started. The new Highway 417 was only completed by Ontario in the mid to late 70s I think.

Another interesting fact is that there for a long time there was a highway numbered as "2" that went all the way from southern Ontario, across Quebec down to Edmundston, across NB and into NS. All with the same number.

[le calmar]

When you look at a map the alignment of the 417 makes sense up to Casselman. If they had it go through Alexandria/Vaudreuil it would be as direct as you can get. However that would potentially have meant ignoring the stretch of 40 running along the Ottawa river entirely.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That makes sense for the Ontario routing that dips southward, but not for the Quebec routing which is built fairly close to the historic Montreal-Ottawa road near the river. (There was talk of a bridge at Pointe-Fortune it is true, but that's not the main reason for the routing.)

That old Montreal-Ottawa road was known as Highway 17 in both provinces (yes Ontario and Quebec had highway numbers in common at one point).

Quebec built the A-40 to the Ontario border as early as 1966. From the border it followed the old Quebec Highway 17 routing for quite some distance, and then A-40 veers a bit to the northeast to the big bridge at Vaudreuil.

The old Quebec Highway 17 used to continue along a more southeastern route into Vaudreuil and Dorion, where it met up with the highway coming in from Toronto, and then the road went into Montreal.

Ontario did not build the divided Highway 417 across rural Eastern Ontario until a decade or more after Quebec completed A-40 to the border in 1966. And so for many years the drive from Ottawa to Montreal was on the four-lane Queensway (Highway 17) to the Montreal Road, exit, then a two lane Highway 17 through Orleans, Cumberland, Rockland, etc. to the Quebec border at Pointe-Fortune where the A-40 expressway started. The new Highway 417 was only completed by Ontario in the mid to late 70s I think.

Another interesting fact is that there for a long time there was a highway numbered as "2" that went all the way from southern Ontario, across Quebec down to Edmundston, across NB and into NS. All with the same number.

I believe the idea of the Pointe Fortune bridge was to connect to Mirabel Airport. That became redundant when Mirabel ceased to be Montreal's International Airport. Highway 40 was part of the big push to prepare for Expo 67.

Highway 417 construction began in 1969 near Ramsayville and was completed in 1976 with the connection to the Queensway and the Aviation Parkway, the so called Split.

Another interesting tidbit about Highway 2 is that it was twinned back in the late 40s through what is now the Thousand Island Parkway. This was one of the first sections of divided highway, which would have become the 401. There was a change of heart and the divided highway was never finished but you can still see this in its entirety. One side of the road I believe is now a bike pathway.

Another interesting fact is that there was never a Highway 1 in Ontario. There is no definitive answer as to why but many believe that it was political, that if a Highway 1 was designated, every town and city would have wanted to be on it.

Interesting facts about the Ontario's King's Highway network can be found at http://www.thekingshighway.ca/

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by le calmar

When you look at a map the alignment of the 417 makes sense up to Casselman. If they had it go through Alexandria/Vaudreuil it would be as direct as you can get. However that would potentially have meant ignoring the stretch of 40 running along the Ottawa river entirely.

You're right. It makes sense if you were starting to build a highway from scratch from Ottawa to the Point de l'Ïle aux Tourtes at Vaudreuil onto Montreal island.

But when you think of it, it didn't really make sense to build it that at the time when they did when Quebec had already gotten to the border first at Pointe-Fortune, where the only highway that the 417 could link up with was located.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If they had built the 417 along the 17 corridor it would have made for an interesting change in development patterns. The sprawl we're currently seeing in places like Embrun and Limoges probably wouldn't have happened (as their access to the city would be much shittier). The cluster of big box stores at the junction of Innes and the 417 probably would have never been built; in its place the Gloucester Centre would likely be more developed. Rockland and Cumberland would probably be far bigger than they are today, with Cumberland likely becoming a sort of 'extension' of Orleans much like how Stittsville became an extension of Kanata. It's even possible that Barrhaven and Riverside South would be less developed than they are today, as the east end areas of Orleans, Cumberland, etc. would have been able to grow more.

I'm not sure if that would be a better world or a worse one.

LOLOL I guess that, in that case, traffic on 417 would have been like that on 401 through Mississauga (read: Clearance-Rockland) + Toronto (Read: Gloucestor) + Oshawa (Read: Downtown Ottawa) then.

[Guideway]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

LOLOL I guess that, in that case, traffic on 417 would have been like that on 401 through Mississauga (read: Clearance-Rockland) + Toronto (Read: Gloucestor) + Oshawa (Read: Downtown Ottawa) then.

Watch out! He's laughing out loud out loud!

[J.OT13]

Mayor says progress made on LRT, Highway 174 transfers

Arthur White-Crummey · CBC News · Posted: Apr 21, 2026

==SNIP==

The mayor said his agreement with Sarkaria also lays out the final steps for a provincial upload of Highway 174 connecting central and east Ottawa, a promise that was part of the “new deal” he and Ford signed in the spring of 2024.

That upload has also been going through due diligence, but Sutcliffe said it is more advanced. Even so, he did not give a timeline on that file either.

“I think we're a lot closer to the finish line with the 174 than we are with LRT,” Sutcliffe said.

The agreement specifically commits the two sides to "[complete] the due diligence to support the Ottawa Road 174 three-stage phased ownership and a structured and thorough evaluation of the [LRT] with a view to long-term provincial stewardship leading to a provincial upload."

That staged plan for the 174, as laid out in the 2024 deal, involves first looking at the highway's operations, then a detailed examination of the highway's condition and legal frameworks, then a consideration of the various options.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-ontario-upload-lrt-otrain-highway-174-9.7171667

[FrostyMug]

Meanwhile it's been announced that the city will pay to repave the stretch of 174 from Blair to the split which is by far the section that is in the poorest condition. I guess once Ottawa taxpayers finish the job of fixing the road then DoFo will agree to take it over and finalize the paperwork. Until then it will be "due diligence" and all the associated mumbo jumbo that goes along with delaying the process for as long as possible.

[Richard Eade]

In fairness, the Province has given the City $56M for the maintenance work on the OR-174.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

In fairness, the Province has given the City $56M for the maintenance work on the OR-174.

Did they give it, or was it just promised?

[Richard Eade]

Well, J.OT13, that is a good question.

In late March, 2024, the City of Ottawa and the Province of Ontario announced the ‘NEW DEAL’. This was a promised $543M in provincial funding to improve life in the Capital.

According to this CBC article (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-ontario-new-deal-money-funding-federal-1.7158131), $56M of that money was for the maintenance of OR-174 while the ‘Three-Step Process’ of uploading the highway was worked through.

HOWEVER, only $9M was provided immediately, with the rest contingent on the City spending any savings (from no longer paying to maintain the road) on “recovery and growth, such as housing.” I assume that if the City has not diverted any savings to helping build more housing, the Province has not continued to hand out money. That is just another NON-TRANSPARENT thing that the City is doing.

With this type of conditions on the money, the City will not be able to reduce its spending – so no great savings from uploading, perhaps – unlike what the Mayor is touting. (Does the Mayor even know about the conditions?)

Hey, in case anyone missed it, that ‘NEW DEAL’ also included $80M for the Kanata North Transitway (along March Road). Of course, that will only be released IF the Feds and the City each kick in an additional $80M. Since the City is a bit short on money, the Province might not have to cough up its share.

I agree, J.OT13, it would be very interesting to see how much of the pledged money actually makes its way to Ottawa.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Well, J.OT13, that is a good question.

In late March, 2024, the City of Ottawa and the Province of Ontario announced the ‘NEW DEAL’. This was a promised $543M in provincial funding to improve life in the Capital.

According to this CBC article (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-ontario-new-deal-money-funding-federal-1.7158131), $56M of that money was for the maintenance of OR-174 while the ‘Three-Step Process’ of uploading the highway was worked through.

HOWEVER, only $9M was provided immediately, with the rest contingent on the City spending any savings (from no longer paying to maintain the road) on “recovery and growth, such as housing.” I assume that if the City has not diverted any savings to helping build more housing, the Province has not continued to hand out money. That is just another NON-TRANSPARENT thing that the City is doing.

With this type of conditions on the money, the City will not be able to reduce its spending – so no great savings from uploading, perhaps – unlike what the Mayor is touting. (Does the Mayor even know about the conditions?)

Hey, in case anyone missed it, that ‘NEW DEAL’ also included $80M for the Kanata North Transitway (along March Road). Of course, that will only be released IF the Feds and the City each kick in an additional $80M. Since the City is a bit short on money, the Province might not have to cough up its share.

I agree, J.OT13, it would be very interesting to see how much of the pledged money actually makes its way to Ottawa.

Thanks for the background.

For the Kanata BRT, it says a lot that the Province won't fund more than 1/3 while pouring something like $70 Billion for GTA transit with none having to be covered by municipalities.

[golfguy9]

Originally Posted by FrostyMug

Meanwhile it's been announced that the city will pay to repave the stretch of 174 from Blair to the split which is by far the section that is in the poorest condition. I guess once Ottawa taxpayers finish the job of fixing the road then DoFo will agree to take it over and finalize the paperwork. Until then it will be "due diligence" and all the associated mumbo jumbo that goes along with delaying the process for as long as possible.

It's my understanding this going to be an extra on the KEV LRT East job. So that money will be buried into the 3 levels of gov that are funding it.

[Richard Eade]

It makes sense that repaving sections of OR-174 is part of the construction for the eastern LRT, but that section (Blair to the split) was not torn up during Stage 2. I believe it is still the old concrete road slabs under layers of asphalt. If I recall, the City has been saying – FOR DECADES – that it should dig out the slabs and put down a proper road foundation.

I find it hard to fathom how such an EXTRA could be included in the shared expense of the LRT Stage 2. I believe that, usually, the upper levels of government are pretty strict about what they will include in a project that they are contributing to. If this paving is an EXTRA, it is possible that the City is paying for the Band-Aid treatment – and got a good price because the LRT crews were there doing the other work.

Oh, if only the City was more transparent in what it does and how it pays for things.

[ponyboycurtis]

The eastbound 174 past the split and a little bit beyond Blair is a safety hazard at this point. Under no circumstances should a road with an upper level speed limit be in that condition for any length of time. Particularly one that has a higher than average level of conflicts.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

The eastbound 174 past the split and a little bit beyond Blair is a safety hazard at this point. Under no circumstances should a road with an upper level speed limit be in that condition for any length of time. Particularly one that has a higher than average level of conflicts.

...unless it's Quebec. Seems perfectly acceptable over there.