CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[F1 Tommy]

So the FAA want to go down to 2800 flights daily at ORD now. That's the maximum ORD had in the early 2000's with the old runways and old ATC towers. Still need to upgrade the older terminals, especially terminal 3, which has some of the narrowest alleys.

[left of center]

That seems extreme. O'Hare's throughput should be greatly improved compared to the early 2000's, with all the work that's been done with the O'Hare modernization program.

How many flights does O'Hare handle daily currently? How much of a reduction would a cap at 2800 flights daily entail?

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by left of center

That seems extreme. O'Hare's throughput should be greatly improved compared to the early 2000's, with all the work that's been done with the O'Hare modernization program.

How many flights does O'Hare handle daily currently? How much of a reduction would a cap at 2800 flights daily entail?

They were planning over 3000 this summer, which was the most ever planned for ORD. 2800 is still more than ATL.

[twister244]

Not too surprising..... Southwest pulling out of O'Hare.....

https://wgntv.com/business/southwest-airlines-to-discontinue-service-to-ohare-airport/

Just means more gate space for United/AA.....

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by twister244

Not too surprising..... Southwest pulling out of O'Hare.....

https://wgntv.com/business/southwest-airlines-to-discontinue-service-to-ohare-airport/

Just means more gate space for United/AA.....

I was always a little confused why they were even at ORD in the first place.

MDW is one of their biggest, most concentrated stations in the country.

Diluting that always seemed risky to me.

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by twister244

Not too surprising..... Southwest pulling out of O'Hare.....

https://wgntv.com/business/southwest-airlines-to-discontinue-service-to-ohare-airport/

Just means more gate space for United/AA.....

Very interesting move. So many things to speculate about on this.

Could be an early decision by SW analyst betting on increased oil prices and a travel downturn in the coming year due to the war and the economy?

Are they trying to buy some sort of favor with city officials/FAA by unloading traffic with threatened flight limits being imposed on the airlines?

Have their routes out of ORD simply not been as profitable, on net, as they've hoped?

[Chicago Shawn]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I was always a little confused why they were even at ORD in the first place.

MDW is one of their biggest, most concentrated stations in the country.

Diluting that always seemed risky to me.

My guess is with the international partnerships Southwest has been creating within the last 2 years, they probably wanted a large international airport that would accommodate easy transfers if/when they start code sharing.

But, ORD was never a big operation for them and with the coming fuel cost pressures as well as pending FAA flight caps and ongoing airfield construction, it was probably a smart move to cut costs with your most likely to be delayed/cancelled flights in a given market.

Gotta say tough, this is a surprise. Those gates on Concourse M were not common use as of the last reshuffling, Southwest picked them up directly and they were clearly making investments at ORD.

[F1 Tommy]

Most likely partly due to the restrictions the FAA will impose at ORD. The FAA said they wanted to go down to 2800 flights daily, now they are saying 2600/2700 flights.

They did 2800 flights back in 1999/2000, but that was before the airlines started doing banking schedules. I think they will come down to 2800/2900 flights and force the airlines to spread out the banked flights. O'hare is not built for banking. Antique terminals that have narrow alleys really cause problems when all the flights leave at the same time.

[twister244]

This isn't an announcement of a new international airline arriving at O'Hare, but I feel like it's worth posting.

https://simpleflying.com/doubling-down-chicago-ohare-etihad-top-us-gateway/

I find it pretty interesting that Etihad is doubling their flights to Chicago to surpass NY in their presence. Anyone have any insight on what's driving this decision?

[left of center]

FAA proposes deeper cuts to O’Hare flights to ease congestion

CHICAGO (WGN) — The Federal Aviation Administration proposed even deeper cuts to O’Hare International Airport on Monday. It’s a move officials said would aim to ease congestion and keep the airport running smoothly.

Airlines have packed O’Hare’s summer schedule with 3,080 planned daily flights, but after the FAA released a statement on Monday, the federal department now said it wants to scale that back to 2,608 per day — a sharper cut than the proposed 2,800-flight limit proposed in February.

...

“The FAA will hold a schedule reduction meeting on Thursday, March 19, to address congestion at Chicago O’Hare International Airport (ORD). The meeting continues productive discussions that began on March 4 as the FAA and airlines work together to build a safer, more reliable schedule.

“The FAA carefully reviewed feedback from airlines and other stakeholders to ensure we get this right ahead of the busy summer travel season. ORD was one of the most delayed airports last summer, and we want to help give travelers the smoothest journey possible.

“As part of that effort, the FAA is proposing a daily maximum number of operations consistent with prior years’ schedules and to cap flights within 30-minute periods throughout the day to prevent congestion during peak times. This will increase safety and improve the on-time experience for passengers.

...

“It’s bad news for an airport recovering pretty fast from the pandemic,” said Joe Schwieterman, a DePaul University professor and aviation expert who spoke to WGN-TV on Monday. “O’Hare is the hottest airport in the country in terms of traffic growth. Just watching American and United grow so fast, and now, the FAA hit a wall saying they can’t handle it all.”

Source: https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/faa-proposes-deeper-cuts-to-ohare-flights-to-ease-congestion/

[F1 Tommy]

Restrictions only run from 0600-2400 midnight. So you could run a few extra redeye flights to offset. With almost 2700 flights that would still beat ATL during peak times, and ORD has more cargo flights than ATL. Those run at night mainly, but they are always late.

[F1 Tommy]

Starting in May the restrictions will take affect in the form of cancellations at ORD. I am almost sure ORD will still beat ATL in flight count for 2026.

[left of center]

What would O'Hare's max throughput look like once the OMP is fully completed?

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by left of center

What would O'Hare's max throughput look like once the OMP is fully completed?

You want the perceived answer before they get the money, or after

Right now we are just below 2800 planned, starting in May. That's what they had before OMP even started. You will hear millions of reasons why.

[k1052]

Given that airlines are cutting schedules already due to jet fuel prices (Iran) summer congestion might be less of an issue at the airport.

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by left of center

What would O'Hare's max throughput look like once the OMP is fully completed?

Ohare's max throughput with the current (complete) runway configuration is 292 flights per hour. Practical max is 220 to 280 depending on conditions. So 5,280 to 6,720 flights per day. 2800 the FAA is mandating is the operational cap based on gates and staffing. 25% more gates doesn't mean the cap goes to 3,500. It's more likely around 3200. But the MUCH better and convenient security and baggage handling and customs and transfer experience with the new global terminal means that ORD will be more appealing as an international hub, which means bigger plans and more passengers and more robust and significant connection networks.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

Ohare's max throughput with the current (complete) runway configuration is 292 flights per hour. Practical max is 220 to 280 depending on conditions. So 5,280 to 6,720 flights per day. 2800 the FAA is mandating is the operational cap based on gates and staffing. 25% more gates doesn't mean the cap goes to 3,500. It's more likely around 3200. But the MUCH better and convenient security and baggage handling and customs and transfer experience with the new global terminal means that ORD will be more appealing as an international hub, which means bigger plans and more passengers and more robust and significant connection networks.

This whole conversation makes me face palm at all of the hem hawing AA and UA were doing years ago about the cost of the expansion. Had the airlines and the city been forward thinking, they could have gone hog wild during Covid to build all the satellites in addition to the T5 expansion.

Costs would have been lower then, and we would be in a position to have the Global Terminal well underway.

As much as the airlines need the Global Terminal, I am still very much anticipating news at some point that they are going to build-out Concourse E first - Then move T2 flights over. Both airlines are desperate for gates now and realize how much the new satellites are needed.

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

Ohare's max throughput with the current (complete) runway configuration is 292 flights per hour. Practical max is 220 to 280 depending on conditions. So 5,280 to 6,720 flights per day. 2800 the FAA is mandating is the operational cap based on gates and staffing. 25% more gates doesn't mean the cap goes to 3,500. It's more likely around 3200. But the MUCH better and convenient security and baggage handling and customs and transfer experience with the new global terminal means that ORD will be more appealing as an international hub, which means bigger plans and more passengers and more robust and significant connection networks.

The reason for the FAA reductions is due congestion and compression during peak times on taxiways and runways. That causes terminal backups even with gates open and available.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy

So the FAA want to go down to 2800 flights daily at ORD now. That's the maximum ORD had in the early 2000's with the old runways and old ATC towers. Still need to upgrade the older terminals, especially terminal 3, which has some of the narrowest alleys.

Yes, they have to be reduce flights. ORD has too many flights. They cannot handle it anymore. FAA is stepping in and both UA and AA have to be reduced flights. That's why the flights are always delays due to long taxing time.

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy

The reason for the FAA reductions is due congestion and compression during peak times on taxiways and runways. That causes terminal backups even with gates open and available.

ORD can handle 292 flights an hour when everything is clicking. 2800 flights a day is 116 flights an hour.

They put a daily cap on so airlines would not try to schedule 1200 flights to depart between 7:00 and 9:00.

The construction is also affecting the paths planes can take to park, slowing throughput from its max.