Confederation Line East LRT Extension (Stage 2) [Blair to Trim] | U/C

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by skyscraperaccount

With one leg we could still get to our destination faster than OC.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

Truly a horrifying prospect.

I'm still confused as to how there aren't lawsuits flying around by this point.

Tbf, tbf? With the current issues, RTG and Alstom are saying "it's fine, don't worry about it", but the City is does not want to take any chances and are being cautious. It's entirely possible RTG and Alstom know it's not fine, but also know the City will pull the trains anyway, removing any liability from their shoulders.

Originally Posted by golfguy9

I think the city knows they agreed to a compromised train set and would not have a leg to stand on.

I don't think that's it. The City demanded something that wasn't workable, the industry told them it was a bad idea, but agreed to it anyway and made promises they could not keep. Either the industry should not have placed bids, or everyone should have placed bids that proposed proper rolling stock.

Originally Posted by phil235

This is a slight oversimplification.

If the city sues RTG or Alstom, they are suing their partners who are critical to providing an essential service to the city. That is not a great position to be in. It's also pretty rare to sue under a contract that is still in effect. The city will look at every option in terms of applying penalties in the agreement before they sue. At some point, claiming material breach of contract is a definite possibility and then you would see lawsuits.

That's probably more like it.

[OTownandDown]

Took the cross-town over the weekend in Toronto. Near Avenue Road/Eglinton. Was surprised at the crazy depth of the station. In such a small footprint, the escalators at Avenue switch-back four times to get to the lowest level.

Had to push the door open button to get on the train. Had to wait a lifetime of dwell before the door closed again to get going. Otherwise was a very nice time.

Really thought it was neat to exit at Eglinton/Yonge, and to take a nice escalator in a white box tunnel upwards, to pop out on the sh*tty, rusty, interior finishes removed, leaky, urine-soaked Line 1 platform/Back-to-the-future vibes.

[lrt's friend]

Are we seeing how negative PPPs are becoming, when the arrangement becomes so litigious, that the public good becomes the lowest priority? The whole benefit that the private sector is assuming the bulk of the risk is backfiring and that this risk will lead to price increases on future PPP projects well beyond inflation.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Took the cross-town over the weekend in Toronto. Near Avenue Road/Eglinton. Was surprised at the crazy depth of the station. In such a small footprint, the escalators at Avenue switch-back four times to get to the lowest level.

Had to push the door open button to get on the train. Had to wait a lifetime of dwell before the door closed again to get going. Otherwise was a very nice time.

Really thought it was neat to exit at Eglinton/Yonge, and to take a nice escalator in a white box tunnel upwards, to pop out on the sh*tty, rusty, interior finishes removed, leaky, urine-soaked Line 1 platform/Back-to-the-future vibes.

Ha... yeah its been about 3 years since I was spending good amounts of time in mid town and even back then Eg station had its finished ceiling off and construction hoarding through the station.

[sseguin]

The Pathway to Passenger Service. O-Train Stage 2 Eastern Extension Achieves Substantial Completion. In this video, we hear from Troy Charter (Interim General Manager of Transit Services) and Richard Holder (Director of the Rail Construction Program) on this major achievement.

• Video Link

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Are we seeing how negative PPPs are becoming, when the arrangement becomes so litigious, that the public good becomes the lowest priority? The whole benefit that the private sector is assuming the bulk of the risk is backfiring and that this risk will lead to price increases on future PPP projects well beyond inflation.

The P3 model from Stage 1 hasn't worked out anywhere near as well as it was supposed to.

[Kitchissippi]

All the station signs in the east extension just say Line 1 whereas the ones in the west extension say Line 1 and 3. They are going to have to change all that in a year or so, seems like a waste, especially the back-lit ones at the entrances.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

All the station signs in the east extension just say Line 1 whereas the ones in the west extension say Line 1 and 3. They are going to have to change all that in a year or so, seems like a waste, especially the back-lit ones at the entrances.

A year?

I was thinking the same. All the signage and maps will need to change for the west opening, whenever that might be. I get it though; they want to keep signage as accurate as possible to avoid confusion. There's enough problems with the transit system without someone miss-informed being super confused about poop coloured line 3.

I was at Bayview a few weeks ago, and some mom and her kid were on the platform. Train arrives and kid says something along the lines of "we have to get on the train". Mom says "no, we're not going to Blair". So I ask, where they were going? She says "Downtown". And I'm like, yeah, that train goes Downtown, which I thought was obvious because we can clearly see Downtown from the platform. Before I can give more info, she rushes into the packed train as the doors are closing.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Took the cross-town over the weekend in Toronto. Near Avenue Road/Eglinton. Was surprised at the crazy depth of the station.

I love how cost is no obstacle to going deep in Toronto, but it was in Ottawa.

Almost like there's a double standard or something.

[Norman Bates]

So for the testing… will it be the same LRVs that start at Tunney’s - carrying passengers through to Blair - then forcing all passengers off at Blair - and continuing through to Trim?

Or, will there be LRVs assigned to testing only and run just between Blair and Trim?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The P3 model from Stage 1 hasn't worked out anywhere near as well as it was supposed to.

Yeah, the city trying to keep the project together when the geology didn't work out, plus of course the various partners not designing their parts of the project for each other.

The first is understandable. The second has always confused me. Like, the partners didn't realize how P3s were supposed to make money?

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I love how cost is no obstacle to going deep in Toronto, but it was in Ottawa.

Almost like there's a double standard or something.

In most of Toronto, the bedrock elevation is further below grade than it is in (downtown) Ottawa. And much of the top layers of bedrock is pretty crumby shale - if you want to get into better (more stable) rock, you need to go deeper.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

So for the testing… will it be the same LRVs that start at Tunney’s - carrying passengers through to Blair - then forcing all passengers off at Blair - and continuing through to Trim?

Or, will there be LRVs assigned to testing only and run just between Blair and Trim?

That's plan A, but last week Troy Charter hinted that they may consider other ways of doing it. I wonder if they are trying to figure out a way to do it with fewer trains due to the issues we're having.

Total speculation here from a guy who knows very little on the subject, but Trim to Blair, or Trim to Tremblay, might be doable?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Yeah, the city trying to keep the project together when the geology didn't work out, plus of course the various partners not designing their parts of the project for each other.

The first is understandable. The second has always confused me. Like, the partners didn't realize how P3s were supposed to make money?

Idea was that RTG would be highly motivated to build the system well since they would be responsible for the 30 year maintenance contract. But then they also had penalties for being late, which had them rush the job (and ultimately, they weren't really that late when looking at Line 2 or Crosstown).

Having the train manufacturer deal with RTG instead of the City directly was another mistake.

I wish we lived in a World where everyone would want to do their best to maintain a good reputation, and Governments would understand that it's better to do things in house because the public sector can do things better and cheaper than the private sector because profits are not involved.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Having the train manufacturer deal with RTG instead of the City directly was another mistake.

Ottawa later went the other way on Trillium and procured the Stadlers in house.

It's still mixed though - Metrolinx procured vehicles separately for their LRTs and then got caught holding the bag when Bombardier faced delays. Funny to think of it now considering how late Eglinton was, but it was big deal at the time.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Catenary

Ottawa later went the other way on Trillium and procured the Stadlers in house.

It's still mixed though - Metrolinx procured vehicles separately for their LRTs and then got caught holding the bag when Bombardier faced delays. Funny to think of it now considering how late Eglinton was, but it was big deal at the time.

Right! Forgot about that.

The same delays would likely had happened with Bombardier whether the City dealt with them directly or the builder had to. The City was at least able to threaten to use Alstoms instead, which again, lol.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

In most of Toronto, the bedrock elevation is further below grade than it is in (downtown) Ottawa. And much of the top layers of bedrock is pretty crumby shale - if you want to get into better (more stable) rock, you need to go deeper.

Your comment reminded me of this video I watched recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5ApDf97RZI

And yes. Regarding Youtubers that we have discussed in it's own thread I think Urban Atlas is pretty good. He just doesn't do the more hardcore city building and transit videos.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Idea was that RTG would be highly motivated to build the system well since they would be responsible for the 30 year maintenance contract. But then they also had penalties for being late, which had them rush the job (and ultimately, they weren't really that late when looking at Line 2 or Crosstown).

Having the train manufacturer deal with RTG instead of the City directly was another mistake.

I wish we lived in a World where everyone would want to do their best to maintain a good reputation, and Governments would understand that it's better to do things in house because the public sector can do things better and cheaper than the private sector because profits are not involved.

We seem to live in a world where shifting everything to privatization is becoming the norm. God forbid we have carrying costs of a government entity when we can just privatize the profits instead.

Whats that saying? Socialize the losses and privatize the profits?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

In most of Toronto, the bedrock elevation is further below grade than it is in (downtown) Ottawa. And much of the top layers of bedrock is pretty crumby shale - if you want to get into better (more stable) rock, you need to go deeper.

Yes, but either way, if a project is expensive, or has an overrun, it is way less of an issue politically than it is in Ottawa.