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  #81  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2026, 12:52 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
 
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+ Lisbon and Athens.

Air passenger traffic per metro area in 2025 compared to 2019:
- Athens (1 airport): +32.9%
- Milan (3 airports): +20.7%
- Lisbon (1 airport): +15.8%
- Rome (2 airports): +11.9%
- Dallas (2 airports): +11.7%
- Dublin (1 airport): +11.4%
- Marseille (1 airport): +10.9%
- Madrid (1 airport): +10.4%
- Montréal (1 airport): +10.1%
- Barcelona (1 airport): +9.1%
- Copenhagen (1 airport): +7.2%
- Houston (2 airports): +5.6%
- Nice (1 airport): +5.1%
- Zurich (1 airport): +3.4%
- Brussels (2 airports): +2.9%
- Vienna (1 airport): +2.8%
- New York (6 airports): +2.0%
- Vancouver (1 airport): +2.0%
- Paris (3 airports): +1.4%
- London (6 airports): -1.0%
- Atlanta (1 airport) : -3.8%
- Amsterdam (1 airport): -4.1%
- Frankfurt (2 airports): -9.0%
- Munich (1 airport): -9.4%
- SF Bay Area (3 airports): -14.0%
- Berlin (1 airport): -26.9%
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  #82  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2026, 3:19 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
 
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Dubai and Doha airports closed due to Iranian strikes. They could potentially remain closed for days (weeks?). This will be good for other international hubs like Istanbul, Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam.

PS: In fact probably more more Paris/Amsterdam/Frankfurt than for Istanbul, because air corridors above the Middle East are going to be closed, so no point transferring in Istanbul. Flights from Europe to Asia already avoided Russia/Ukraine. Now they will have to fly south of the Red Sea. So, say, London to Kenya then back north towards India and China. Not good for Istanbul.
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  #83  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2026, 3:36 PM
wanderer34 wanderer34 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Marseille is shaping up as the comeback kid of France. Not only its airport has experienced the highest growth in France since 2019, but the GDP of Marseille has also experienced the highest growth among French metro areas since 2019. This is quite at odds with how most French people view Marseille. A city in deep crisis and with too many problems to salvage is generally how it's viewed, due to the media only reporting about drug gang violence there, but statistics paint another reality that is essentially invisible in the media.

More generally, all of Southern European (from Portugal to Greece and including Marseille) has been doing pretty good since Covid, whereas Northern Europe is struggling (with a few exceptions like Denmark).
I’ve always regarded Marseille as France’s second city, not Lyon, the same way that Barcelona is the second city of Spain, Milan the second city of Italy, Munich the second city of Germany, Rotterdam the second city of Holland, Gothenburg the second city of Sweden, St. Petersburg the second city of Russia, Osaka the second city of Japan, and Chicago the second city of America (or should it be LA or Miami)…
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  #84  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2026, 4:15 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
 
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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
I’ve always regarded Marseille as France’s second city, not Lyon, the same way that Barcelona is the second city of Spain, Milan the second city of Italy, Munich the second city of Germany, Rotterdam the second city of Holland, Gothenburg the second city of Sweden, St. Petersburg the second city of Russia, Osaka the second city of Japan, and Chicago the second city of America (or should it be LA or Miami)…
Yeah, but no. Lyon is the 2nd city of France by any metrics (population, economy, traffic, etc).

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  #85  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2026, 1:22 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
 
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There is a certain feeling of schadenfreude here in Europe according to what I've seen in the media.
Quote:
‘Half of Dubai is booking’: expats drive to Oman and Saudi Arabia to find flights out

Financial Times
March 2, 2026

Charter operators vie to secure slots in Muscat as airports in UAE and Qatar remain closed

Dubai residents have been driving to neighbouring Oman or even Saudi Arabia to try to secure seats on the limited number of flights out of the region, as a third day of global travel chaos triggered sharp falls in airline stocks.

Airports in Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Qatar remained closed on Monday after Israeli and US attacks on Iran over the weekend sparked retaliation from Tehran, with charter groups vying to secure landing slots elsewhere in the region.

Tens of thousands of passengers have been stranded in the region by the closures, with many more in Asia or Europe unable to take planned connecting flights. Qatar Airways, Etihad and Emirates all postponed flights for another day.

By 11am UK time, more than half of the flights booked into the region for Monday had been cancelled, according to aviation data group Cirium. Some 4,000 flights in or out have been cancelled, adding to the thousands already cancelled over the weekend.

[...]

A Dubai-based Russian oligarch, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the FT he tried to book a private jet out of the Gulf by offering to pay twice the normal price for the Dubai to Moscow route but was told that “no exceptions could be made at this time”.

[...]

https://www.ft.com/content/7ecea3fe-295d-4592-abf2-206da6f6b8ca
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  #86  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2026, 1:32 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
 
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Boo-hoo. All the Russian oligarchs and European tax dodgers will temporarily have to find some other outlaw state with slave labor.
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  #87  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2026, 1:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
I’ve always regarded Marseille as France’s second city, not Lyon, the same way that Barcelona is the second city of Spain, Milan the second city of Italy, Munich the second city of Germany, Rotterdam the second city of Holland, Gothenburg the second city of Sweden, St. Petersburg the second city of Russia, Osaka the second city of Japan, and Chicago the second city of America (or should it be LA or Miami)…
Milan is the primate city of Italy. By far the largest metro population and economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Yeah, but no. Lyon is the 2nd city of France by any metrics (population, economy, traffic, etc).
Since when Lyon is France's second most populated urban area?

Quote:
A Dubai-based Russian oligarch, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the FT he tried to book a private jet out of the Gulf by offering to pay twice the normal price for the Dubai to Moscow route but was told that “no exceptions could be made at this time”.
"Russian oligarch"... Western media has no sense on how cartoonish they look like. Obviously they won't describe their masters that way. "Freedom of press" is basically write what my oligarch tells me to write.

Regarding the Gulf airports, three days closed in Duban represents 1 million passengers. Another thing: Europeans cannot fly over Russia and now not over Iran. Europe-Asia border is basically closed for them.
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  #88  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2026, 2:28 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
Milan is the primate city of Italy. By far the largest metro population and economy.
In 2023, according to the international definitions of metro areas (the FUAs), there were 5,048,392 inhabitants in the metro area of Milan, vs 4,384,657 in the metro area of Rome.

Evolution:

------------------- 1991 ------ 2023 ------ Growth
Code:
Milan ------ 4,513,122 -- 5,048,392  -- +11.3%
Rome ------- 3,861,485 -- 4,384,657  -- +13.5%
Naples ----- 3,350,805 -- 3,385,265  -- +1.0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
Since when Lyon is France's second most populated urban area?
Since the 18th century. Until the 18th century, the 2nd most populated urban area in France was Rouen, but it was passed by Lyon in the 18th century (the exact date is impossible to tell).

Marseille started to catch up with Lyon after the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869 and the development of the French colonial empire in Africa and Indochina. It became the largest port of France, and gate to the empire. The Marseille urban area nearly reached the population size of Lyon in the 1920s. The Lyon authorities decided to fake their censuses in order to remain ahead of Marseille (they created tens of thousands of fake inhabitants), but the Marseille authorities in turn decided to fake their censuses to be ahead of Marseille, and this being Marseille, the fake censuses in Marseille reached industrial level (whereas it remained at artisanal level in Lyon). By 1936, the city of Marseille had invented 294,000 fake inhabitants in its census, whereas Lyon had invented only 111,000 fake inhabitants. In 1946 INSEE was created and they took over the census from the municipalities to ensure accurate, untampered censuses.

Pre-war figures for Marseille and Lyon were redressed by INSEE, and it shows Marseille came close to overtaking Lyon, but didn't. Lyon always remained ahead of Marseille. After the war, Marseille was again close to Lyon, but since the 1980s Lyon has left Marseille behind, due to stagnation in Marseille.
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  #89  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2026, 2:38 PM
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Yuri Yuri is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
In 2023, according to the international definitions of metro areas (the FUAs), there were 5,048,392 inhabitants in the metro area of Milan, vs 4,384,657 in the metro area of Rome.

Evolution:

------------------- 1991 ------ 2023 ------ Growth
Code:
Milan ------ 4,513,122 -- 5,048,392  -- +11.3%
Rome ------- 3,861,485 -- 4,384,657  -- +13.5%
Naples ----- 3,350,805 -- 3,385,265  -- +1.0%
There is no "the international definition". There are countless definitions of metro area and that's only one of them.

In urbanized area, for example, both Milan and Naples are way ahead Rome. Census 2021: Milan 4,994,735; Naples 3,808,383, Rome 3,253,293. And that's not considering some contiguous urbanized area that boost Milan and Naples more than Rome.

https://citypopulation.de/en/italy/urbanareas/



Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Since the 18th century. Until the 18th century, the 2nd most populated urban area in France was Rouen, but it was passed by Lyon in the 18th century (the exact date is impossible to tell).

Marseille started to catch up with Lyon after the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869 and the development of the French colonial empire in Africa and Indochina. It became the largest port of France, and gate to the empire. The Marseille urban area nearly reached the population size of Lyon in the 1920s. The Lyon authorities decided to fake their censuses in order to remain ahead of Marseille (they created tens of thousands of fake inhabitants), but the Marseille authorities in turn decided to fake their censuses to be ahead of Marseille, and this being Marseille, the fake censuses in Marseille reached industrial level (whereas it remained at artisanal level in Lyon). By 1936, the city of Marseille had invented 294,000 fake inhabitants in its census, whereas Lyon had invented only 111,000 fake inhabitants. In 1946 INSEE was created and they took over the census from the municipalities to ensure accurate, untampered censuses.

Pre-war figures for Marseille and Lyon were redressed by INSEE, and it shows Marseille came close to overtaking Lyon, but didn't. Lyon always remained ahead of Marseille. After the war, Marseille was again close to Lyon, but since the 1980s Lyon has left Marseille behind, due to stagnation in Marseille.
What about Lille agglomeration? Was there a period that it was ahead Lyon?
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  #90  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2026, 2:43 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
 
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IMO, it's difficult to say whether Rome or Milan is more important.

Milan is clearly richer, much more important economic center and much bigger region. But Rome has larger urban population, globally more prominent, and national capital + capital of Christianity.
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  #91  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2026, 3:11 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel View Post
Tel Aviv has 1 airport, and realistically the vast majority of all flights in Israel go through this airport.

2025: 19,160,160 which up 31.8% from 2024 but down 12.4% from 2023 and down from 22.8% from the all time peak in 2019.

Of course this is heavily influenced by the security situation, so if 2026 remains calm then there will be another big increase. But if another war breaks out, then it could go down again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Dubai and Doha airports closed due to Iranian strikes. They could potentially remain closed for days (weeks?).
Great timing...
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  #92  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2026, 3:33 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
There is no "the international definition". There are countless definitions of metro area and that's only one of them.

In urbanized area, for example, both Milan and Naples are way ahead Rome. Census 2021: Milan 4,994,735; Naples 3,808,383, Rome 3,253,293. And that's not considering some contiguous urbanized area that boost Milan and Naples more than Rome.

https://citypopulation.de/en/italy/urbanareas/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
What about Lille agglomeration? Was there a period that it was ahead Lyon?
I've answered here where it's more appropriate: https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10562018#post10562018
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  #93  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2026, 3:45 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
But Rome has larger urban population, globally more prominent, and national capital + capital of Christianity.
Milan has a larger urban population than Rome. Rome is only more important politically (and for religious reasons). It's also shaping up as the air hub of Italy (for long distances, like Asia, America, Rome Fiumicino is becoming the hub of Italy instead of Milan).

In 2024:
- Rome Fiumicino to/from the US: 3,742,287 passengers
- Milan Malpensa to/from the US: 1,243,073 passengers

- Rome Fiumicino to/from China (incl. HK): 562,626 passengers
- Milan Malpensa to/from China (incl. HK): 439,593 passengers

- Rome Fiumicino to/from Brazil: 709,382 passengers
- Milan Malpensa to/from Brazil: 205,250 passengers
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  #94  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2026, 12:55 AM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
 
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The beginning of the end for the Middle Eastern air hubs? That would be good news for CDG, Amsterdam, and Frankfurt.
Quote:
Thousands of flights cancelled as world faces worst travel chaos since Covid crisis

The Guardian
March 3, 2026

Hundreds of thousands of passengers remain stranded, with key air hubs in Middle East closed amid fallout from US-Israeli strikes on Iran

Thousands more flights were cancelled on Monday as the turmoil in global air travel caused by the US-Israel war on Iran continued, with hundreds of thousands of passengers stranded.

Gulf airports and airlines have suspended normal operations until at least 10.00 GMT on Tuesday. However, a limited number of special services were due to depart from the UAE on Monday evening.

Some carriers and travel companies are offering refunds or free changes to those due to travel in the coming weeks. Major Middle Eastern airports, including Dubai – the world’s busiest international hub – closed for a third consecutive day amid the most acute aviation shock since the Covid pandemic paralysed the industry.

Flights across the Middle East have been cancelled, disrupting thousands of services so far, as international carriers continued to suspend their services.

By 05.00 GMT, according to the analysts Cirium, almost 1,700 flights to the Middle East had been cancelled, although it warned that the figures were artificially low owing to limited data coming from Iran and the United Arab Emirates, where hundreds more flights were scheduled on Monday.

[...]

Almost 2,800 flights were cancelled on Saturday, and 3,156 cancelled on Sunday, according to the tracking platform FlightAware.

Some flights to Cyprus have also been affected, with easyJet cancelling its return services between Paphos and Larnaca and the UK on Monday and Tuesday after a drone hit the RAF base in Akrotiri. British Airways said it had cancelled Monday’s Larnaca service.

Airspace over Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Israel, Bahrain, the UAE and Qatar was still virtually empty as of Monday, according to the flight-tracking website Flightradar24.

[...]

The impact has spread far beyond the Middle East, with passengers stranded from Bali to Frankfurt. Air India cancelled flights on Sunday departing from Delhi, Mumbai and Amritsar for big cities in Europe and North America.

Crew and pilots are now scattered across the world, complicating the process of resuming flights whenever airspace reopens.

[...]

“Saudi Arabia is the only real option for people who want to get out of the region right now,” Ameerh Naran, the chief executive of the private jet brokerage Vimana Private, told Semafor, putting the cost of private jets from Riyadh to Europe at up to $350,000 (£260,000).

The region and its airlines have become used to travel disruption over the past few years, but such a prolonged closure of the skies – more than 24 hours – and the shutdown of all three big Gulf transit hubs was unprecedented, analysts said.

[...]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/m...st-travel-chaos-us-israeli-iran-conflict
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  #95  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2026, 2:44 AM
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New Zealand airports have struggled to return to their 2019 levels.

The 3 busiest as below:

2019:
Auckland: 21,625,370
Christchurch: 6,931,441
Wellington: 6,441,935

2025
Auckland: 18,734,240 (-13.36%)
Christchurch: 6,390,000 (-7.8%)
Wellington: 5,316,838 (-17.46%)
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  #96  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2026, 2:59 AM
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Nouvellecosse Nouvellecosse is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
IMO, it's difficult to say whether Rome or Milan is more important.

Milan is clearly richer, much more important economic center and much bigger region. But Rome has larger urban population, globally more prominent, and national capital + capital of Christianity.
Is Rome actually more globally prominent? When I think of Rome, the only things I even think of are ancient ruins/monuments, graffiti-covered metro trains, and having a famous name due to the ancient empire. But for me, none of those things make it seem that prominent outside of tourism any more than they make Cairo prominent for similar reasons. As far the the Vatican, I know it's within Rome, but I don't think of Rome when I hear it mentioned. The Vatican makes me think of... the Vatican. Which I suppose makes sense given that it isn't just a different municipality like Paris and La Défense or Boston and Cambridge. It's literally not even in the same country.
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  #97  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2026, 3:15 AM
Crawford Crawford is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Is Rome actually more globally prominent? When I think of Rome, the only things I even think of are ancient ruins/monuments, graffiti-covered metro trains, and having a famous name due to the ancient empire. But for me, none of those things make it seem that prominent outside of tourism any more than they make Cairo prominent for similar reasons. As far the the Vatican, I know it's within Rome, but I don't think of Rome when I hear it mentioned. The Vatican makes me think of... the Vatican. Which I suppose makes sense given that it isn't just a different municipality like Paris and La Défense or Boston and Cambridge. It's literally not even in the same country.
Disagree. To me, Rome is one of Europe's epic must-see Big Three, alongside London and Paris. Milan's size and economic advantages over Rome are pretty modest, and Rome has a larger contiguous urban core, packed with amazing attractions, with few equals on earth (no equals for history and Christianity).

I don't think more than a small fraction of non-Europeans could identify anything re. Milan, and it's not a particularly interesting city. The history, food and culture are middling for Italy. It's a poorer Frankfurt with more stylish dressers and a nicer cathedral.
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  #98  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2026, 4:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Is Rome actually more globally prominent?
Than Milan? Absolutely. Prominence is defined as the state of being famous, important, or noticeable, often standing out from surrounding elements. Rome is more famous than Milan among every rando in every modern country in the world. Rome is more important to most of the world than Milan, given its famous, historic ruins.

Quote:
When I think of Rome, the only things I even think of are ancient ruins/monuments, graffiti-covered metro trains, and having a famous name due to the ancient empire. But for me, none of those things make it seem that prominent outside of tourism any more than they make Cairo prominent for similar reasons. As far the the Vatican, I know it's within Rome, but I don't think of Rome when I hear it mentioned. The Vatican makes me think of... the Vatican. Which I suppose makes sense given that it isn't just a different municipality like Paris and La Défense or Boston and Cambridge. It's literally not even in the same country.
Rome is the capital of Italy, and is most certainly associated with the center of the Roman Catholic Church.

Milan is the bigger metropolis and economy, and I would say it is the beating heart of the Italian zeitgeist--but let's not deny Rome its due.
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  #99  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2026, 5:35 AM
mhays mhays is offline
 
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Yeah, Rome is famous in a way Milan just isn't.
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  #100  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2026, 7:25 AM
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