Planning underway for new commuter ferry between Bedford and Halifax

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

We know we will have an electric ferry running to DT from Bedford. We also know it will be operated by Halifax Transit. We further know that Halifax Transit has demonstrated consistently that they are incapable of running an even halfway-decent transit system based upon decades of poor experiences.

Two observations:

1) I used the Halifax Transit (and its predecessor organizations) ferry service for decades, sometimes every workday for years on end when I worked in downtown Halifax, and loved it. On the whole, I've had very, very few bad experiences with it. It's always seemed to me to be the part of the transit system that works best. The bus system? Not nearly so pleased...though thankfully I didn't have to use it much.

2) I've read that the Bedford ferry line will offer 18-minute service to downtown, with departures every 15 minutes. It will be really interesting to see how that schedule will be maintained when the ferries will have to yield - for probably as much as 5 minutes a time, or more - to the much larger vessels which frequently transit the Narrows. I assume there's a plan for that...

[AnotherNorthender]

Any word on what may happen on the lands that surround the terminal? I don't know too much about the area but wasn't it infilled in the past decade or so and owned by Build NS?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Two observations:

1) I used the Halifax Transit (and its predecessor organizations) ferry service for decades, sometimes every workday for years on end when I worked in downtown Halifax, and loved it. On the whole, I've had very, very few bad experiences with it. It's always seemed to me to be the part of the transit system that works best.

It must work really well when they cannot staff the boats due to personnel issues, which has been far too common for the last year or so. Or when they take boats out of service for refit/repair and have no spare equipment.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

No, it’s not different. To me, it mostly appears that you like to pick winners and losers, based upon your personal preferences. Nothing more complicated than that.

Unworthy of you.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

It must work really well when they cannot staff the boats due to personnel issues, which has been far too common for the last year or so. Or when they take boats out of service for refit/repair and have no spare equipment.

I imagine you're right. Since I've been back working on the Dartmouth side for the past several years, I didn't really ever see much of that.

But I really wasn't defending Halifax Transit (nor would I) per se, merely commenting on my experience with the ferry system. For that matter, much of it pre-dated its absorption by Halifax Transit.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Two observations:

1) I used the Halifax Transit (and its predecessor organizations) ferry service for decades, sometimes every workday for years on end when I worked in downtown Halifax, and loved it. On the whole, I've had very, very few bad experiences with it. It's always seemed to me to be the part of the transit system that works best. The bus system? Not nearly so pleased...though thankfully I didn't have to use it much.

Yeah that definitely makes sense. The ferry doesn't have to deal with road congestion and is big enough to avoid many of the bus crowding issues. I don't tend to take the ferry that often myself since it mostly just means more transfers but I'm sure it's great for people working downtown.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Unworthy of you.

Hey, I mostly enjoy your posts, whether I agree or disagree. However in the case of continual bashing of a service that is just graduating from the conceptual stage and won’t see the light of day for a few years, I have to call it like I see it. Sorry.

Now, after it’s been going for a couple of years, with ample time to work the bugs out, it’s all fair game. At least there will be something to talk about.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Hey, I mostly enjoy your posts, whether I agree or disagree. However in the case of continual bashing of a service that is just graduating from the conceptual stage and won’t see the light of day for a few years, I have to call it like I see it. Sorry.

Now, after it’s been going for a couple of years, with ample time to work the bugs out, it’s all fair game. At least there will be something to talk about.

Since when has SSP become a post construction review forum? Quite literally every project announced on this site is discussed and speculated upon and criticized and analyzed and looked at sideways, etc. etc. etc. Why should this project be treated differently?

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Below is a screenshot from the proposed urgent planning changes document with info related to the Mill Cove area.


Screenshot 2024-03-08 11.17.47 AM by AJ Forsythe, on Flickr

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

[/B]

Since when has SSP become a post construction review forum? Quite literally every project announced on this site is discussed and speculated upon and criticized and analyzed and looked at sideways, etc. etc. etc. Why should this project be treated differently?

You're right, it shouldn't be. Therefore you should be able to discuss about BRT lines that don't exist yet as well. That's the point I was trying to make.

The excess negativity grates on my nerves a little sometimes, but I should step back and not offer my opinions so much. People have the right to present their ideas as negatively as they want to, and in the end it will be what it will be... success or failure, completely beyond the control of we opinion-givers.

So, my apologies if my comments have been out of line. To Keith as well... I call it like I see it, and am honest in my assertions, but sometimes it can come off as a little too direct, and perhaps harsh? I probably won't change much, as at this point it is what it is... but at least you know it comes from a good place.

[Dmajackson]

I'm excited for the new ferry. I just hope they rezone a few key spots for high-density residential to help support the new service. The southern waterfront, the three retail plazas at Mill Cove, and Brookshire Court to name a few. The United Gulf owned lands in Paper Mill should be encouraged to be built especially the Nine Mile Drive extension.

As for transit it appears three full-time routes will service the Mill Cove Terminal (8,91,93). This means direct service to three other park 'n rides (West Bedford, Cobequid, Sackville) which could see more use. These routes cover a lot of area so really I just see the need for increased peak service on 8/91/93 and four new routes (two peak-only, and two local full-time). I'll post those later.

[Dmajackson]

For the new routes I focused on where population growth will occur between now and 2028 when the ferry starts service. Bedford is going to continue to be the fastest growing community in HRM. The bulk of that will be in four key areas; Brookline Park, LUB/HPR/Bluewater triangle, Sandy Lake West, and Bedford Commons.


Route 95 - OCEANVIEW - Peak-only route that serves South Bedford using existing streets. Bedford Hwy - Moirs Mill - Royal Masts - Oceanview - Nine Mile - turn around at Peakview Way.

Route 96 - BEDFORD COMMONS - Full-time local service. Bedford Hwy - HPR - Basinview - Meadowbrook - Bedford Hwy - Rocky Lake - Damascus - Duke - Glendale - Cobequid - Cobequid Terminal

Route 97 - BROOKLINE PARK - Full-time local service. Bedford Hwy - HPR - Innovation - West Bedford Terminal - Innovation - Gary Martin - HPR - future Sub-Area 12 road - LUB - Brookline

Route 98 - SANDY LAKE - Peak-only route that serves Sandy Lake West. Bedford Hwy - HPR - Innovation - West Bedford Terminal - Innovation - Gary Martin - HPR - Sandy Lake West.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Posting a Mill Cove 'before' pic for reference.

Screenshot 2024-03-25 10.10.29 AM by AJ Forsythe, on Flickr

[q12]

https://www.reddit.com/r/halifax/com...the_mill_cove/

Council is considering cancelling the Mill Cove ferry... A Transit project with money already committed from the Feds and the Province....





The federal government is investing $155.7 million in the project, while the province is contributing $65 million. Halifax Regional Municipality will also pitch in more than $38 million. Source: https://globalnews.ca/news/10333107/...lifax-transit/

[OldDartmouthMark]

With all the negativity expressed on this forum about the ferries, it doesn’t surprise me that some councillors probably feel the same way.

Hopefully there is still some common sense remaining that understands more transit is better than less. Maybe delay the expensive electric versions and go for more conventional, if budget is a problem. However, if they want to do this to save money, then they should realize that leaving all that federal and provincial money on the table will just make it more expensive in the future.

I would say if it doesn’t happen now it will probably never happen.

[Antigonish]

This council has completely lost the plot. Gradually I began to hate them...

[someone123]

It's just a motion from a councillor. The vote will clarify the overall position.

I don't follow HRM council proceedings much these days but it seems there are a lot of problems that go far back. They often get cold feet on projects that qualify for a lot of fed and provincial funding where pulling out doesn't make sense; part of the reason for the wider scope here is that the feds are supporting it so much. Another problem is that HRM waffles and stumbles for so long that no progress is made and the municipality's infrastructure falls behind. The Windsor Street Exchange is like this. You can argue about what the right solution is but it shouldn't take a decade to figure out what to do.

There is also this bean counter mentality where nobody leads, they're extremely scared of any project ever going wrong, and they behave as if projected factoids are the full picture. There are a lot of hard to measure reasons to build infrastructure like a ferry and there are limits to budgeting and projections (I wonder if the ridership projections even include correct population growth for the last few years). Leadership and judgement for these large projects matters, and sometimes cities should take calculated risks and do interesting things. Not many people would want to live in a city generated from optimizing a spreadsheet.

I wonder, if this project is canned, whether this will just serve as more justification for the province to take over. Which frankly may be for the best. It's similar with HRM council delaying developments to the point where the province and feds stepped in. It's hard to imagine this council ever championing something like LRT when they can't handle follow-through with a ferry or a basic stadium suitable for a city 1/4 the size.

[Keith P.]

This project always struck me as ill-considered. Ferries are expensive to build out and operate, and as we have seen already with the existing tubs crossing the harbour, even getting crews to run them is a big problem for Transit. These were supposed to be electric ferries, adding new tech and increased cost to an operation that struggles already with old tech, and the commute would be lengthy from a base terminal in Bedford that only serves a relatively small market. I was honestly astonished when it received fed and provincial support.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

This project always struck me as ill-considered. Ferries are expensive to build out and operate, and as we have seen already with the existing tubs crossing the harbour, even getting crews to run them is a big problem for Transit. These were supposed to be electric ferries, adding new tech and increased cost to an operation that struggles already with old tech, and the commute would be lengthy from a base terminal in Bedford that only serves a relatively small market. I was honestly astonished when it received fed and provincial support.

Haha… well, you can never have too many buses. And the bike lanes will help remove cars from the streets. We will never get LRT, but maybe we won’t need it anyway.

Perhaps the natural flow will be for more people to move to the exurban areas and just drive to the business parks. Meanwhile the downtown can be reserved for those who live there. Things always have a way of working themselves out, Keith. Maybe it’s time to invest in a bus pass?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's just a motion from a councillor. The vote will clarify the overall position.

I don't follow HRM council proceedings much these days but it seems there are a lot of problems that go far back. They often get cold feet on projects that qualify for a lot of fed and provincial funding where pulling out doesn't make sense; part of the reason for the wider scope here is that the feds are supporting it so much. Another problem is that HRM waffles and stumbles for so long that no progress is made and the municipality's infrastructure falls behind. The Windsor Street Exchange is like this. You can argue about what the right solution is but it shouldn't take a decade to figure out what to do.

There is also this bean counter mentality where nobody leads, they're extremely scared of any project ever going wrong, and they behave as if projected factoids are the full picture. There are a lot of hard to measure reasons to build infrastructure like a ferry and there are limits to budgeting and projections (I wonder if the ridership projections even include correct population growth for the last few years). Leadership and judgement for these large projects matters, and sometimes cities should take calculated risks and do interesting things. Not many people would want to live in a city generated from optimizing a spreadsheet.

I wonder, if this project is canned, whether this will just serve as more justification for the province to take over. Which frankly may be for the best. It's similar with HRM council delaying developments to the point where the province and feds stepped in. It's hard to imagine this council ever championing something like LRT when they can't handle follow-through with a ferry or a basic stadium suitable for a city 1/4 the size.

As usual, a good take on the situation.