Alto High Speed Rail

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I agree with many of you that airport connections should have been considered. Not the Ottawa airport since it's not a hub and would require quite a detour, but Trudeau and Pearson. It's very strange to me that Laval was chosen for a station, but not Trudeau.

There is 2 things here.

It is more cost effective to have only one route into downtown Montreal

The project is defined to have only 7 stations. This may be very difficult to change. Laval is the only suburb to get a station

[Truenorth00]

Dorval has more utility to Ottawa, Trois Rivieres and Quebec City residents than it actually does to Ottawa residents. That's the crazy part. Yes, there will be local ridership. But the number or Ottawa residents using YUL would go up. And the number of Trois Rivieres and Quebec City residents arriving at Dorval by rail instead of car or plane would also go up dramatically. That's why it's surprising to me that Dorval wasn't considered. It's not very strategic.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Hopefully we get a phase 2 (phase 3?) planned and ready to go by the time the current project is completed, and it includes a branch to Pearson Airport.

I've mentioned this before. Going west of Union is not an option until Metrolinx and sorts out the rail situation. And possibly until the GTAA decides what they want to do with their previously proposed rail hub/central terminal/business district idea. Till all that happens, connecting from Union to Pearson with UPE will have to suffice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_Regional_Transit_Centre

[Richard Eade]

Maybe something to keep in mind is that the CDPQ is the lead. They are currently going through a large expense to connect the REM to Montreal’s P.E.Trudeau Airport. If the HSR drops people “25 minutes away by REM” (from Trudeau Airport), it is guaranteed ridership revenue for the REM –which CDPQ gets a slice of. Of course, that is my cynical take on the ALTO planning process. (I’m not sure why CDPQ was hesitant to connect REM to VIA Rail’s Dorval Station, though, since it would also have captured revenue – but I guess not enough revenue for the cost.)

Having the termini of the HSR in the central business districts of Montreal and Toronto does make sense. As Phil235 points out, they are the primary destination for a large portion of travelers. This is why the UPX exists – to quickly get people who land at Toronto’s Pearson Airport to Union Station. And why the REM is being connected to Trudeau Airport. Luckily, both of those transit systems also work in reverse – taking people from a central location out to the airports.

Ottawa should be a ‘through’ station to minimize delays. Afterall, Ottawa is just a station between Toronto and Montreal. I expect that Toronto <-> Montreal passenger traffic on the HSR will dwarf either Ottawa <-> Montreal or Ottawa <-> Toronto trips.

So where in Laval do you think the station will be? I expect the corridor to follow the Laurentian Autoroute, so maybe near CF Carrefour Laval, or Place Bell.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think it will be 25 minutes on the REM to get from Gare Central to Trudeau, so even with that transfer, it will still be competitive with driving, though a short haul connecting flight would still be more convenient.

The choice to avoid Dorval could be CDPQ wanting to get more people on the REM, could be Air Canada wanting to preserve profitable short haul flights, but it's likely a space thing.

I really think it's a space thing. That route into Gare Centrale is indirect and really tight. It's really not an ideal route when speed is your objective. A new tunnel solves that problem.

[Richard Eade]

A 15km tunnel from Carrefour Laval, or a 15km tunnel from Trudeau, to Gare Centrale would cost about the same, I imagine. Either is likely $1.5B.-$1.75B.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

A 15km tunnel from Carrefour Laval, or a 15km tunnel from Trudeau, to Gare Centrale would cost about the same, I imagine. Either is likely $1.5B.-$1.75B.

Do they need to tunnel from Carrefour Laval? I understood that the tunnel was primarily under Mount Royal and would emerge somewhere around the northern edge of TMR.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Dorval has more utility to Ottawa, Trois Rivieres and Quebec City residents than it actually does to Ottawa residents. That's the crazy part. Yes, there will be local ridership. But the number or Ottawa residents using YUL would go up. And the number of Trois Rivieres and Quebec City residents arriving at Dorval by rail instead of car or plane would also go up dramatically. That's why it's surprising to me that Dorval wasn't considered. It's not very strategic.

REM will be quite useful for those coming from Quebec City and T-R. Much less doubling.back than for this coming from Ottawa.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Maybe something to keep in mind is that the CDPQ is the lead. They are currently going through a large expense to connect the REM to Montreal’s P.E.Trudeau Airport. If the HSR drops people “25 minutes away by REM” (from Trudeau Airport), it is guaranteed ridership revenue for the REM –which CDPQ gets a slice of. Of course, that is my cynical take on the ALTO planning process. (I’m not sure why CDPQ was hesitant to connect REM to VIA Rail’s Dorval Station, though, since it would also have captured revenue – but I guess not enough revenue for the cost.)

Having the termini of the HSR in the central business districts of Montreal and Toronto does make sense. As Phil235 points out, they are the primary destination for a large portion of travelers. This is why the UPX exists – to quickly get people who land at Toronto’s Pearson Airport to Union Station. And why the REM is being connected to Trudeau Airport. Luckily, both of those transit systems also work in reverse – taking people from a central location out to the airports.

Ottawa should be a ‘through’ station to minimize delays. Afterall, Ottawa is just a station between Toronto and Montreal. I expect that Toronto <-> Montreal passenger traffic on the HSR will dwarf either Ottawa <-> Montreal or Ottawa <-> Toronto trips.

So where in Laval do you think the station will be? I expect the corridor to follow the Laurentian Autoroute, so maybe near CF Carrefour Laval, or Place Bell.

Maybe they figure Laval will have a higher ridership than at Trudeau. Sure they want to maximize profit on the REM, but they also want to maximize profit on the HSR. I tend to think it's a space thing. Maybe an urbanism thing; Laval having more potential than Dorval.

I read somewhere (from someone who went to one of the consolations) that Laval Station will be at one of the Laval Orange Line stations. Montmorency would make the most sense since there's a lot of parking that could potentially accommodate an HSR station and it's in line with Downtown Montreal for a straight shot tunnel.

[urbanforest]

One more thought on Union: People in Ottawa may complain that it isn't convenient for them to access a downtown station, that Tremblay or somewhere further afield would be more accessible to them, but I think this is shortsighted.

If you were visiting Toronto or Montreal for leisure (or business), would you rather arrive downtown or somewhere like Scarborough or Lachine? Alto will no doubt increase tourism to Ottawa, but those people won't be coming to see Barrhaven or Alta Vista, they'll be coming to see and stay in downtown.

[Richard Eade]

I am convinced that Ottawa’s HSR station should be in the downtown core; but I’m just not convinced that the old Union Station should be that station.

Bring the line above the 417, from the 7/417 interchange, and then weave it up to a station under Albert or Slater around Bank. (Ideally, connecting to a Bank Street Subway.) From there, weave the line east, out of the city.

I seem to recall that all of the infrastructure under Slater and Albert was really old and needed to be replaced. I believe that the plan was to do it when the bus tunnel was dug – but that didn’t happen. Has the underground infrastructure been replaced yet under these two roads?

It occurs to me that, since a downtown station would need to be entirely underground, it doesn’t really matter what it is under.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

So where in Laval do you think the station will be? I expect the corridor to follow the Laurentian Autoroute, so maybe near CF Carrefour Laval, or Place Bell.

I would have thought Carrefour Laval would be a good place but if the dark areas of the map are supposed to show potential station locations, it puts it at the vicinity of Montmorency Metro station.

The clearest route to go through Laval would be along the A440 and somehow connect to the A40 corridor. If they follow the Brightline West formula of running tracks in the median of the freeway it could save a lot of money.

[Kitchissippi]

Their website clearly states "Alto’s surface stations require about 42,000 m²—about the size of six football fields." I really don't see where they can find that much space in downtown Ottawa without massive impact.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Their website clearly states "Alto’s surface stations require about 42,000 m²—about the size of six football fields." I really don't see where they can find that much space in downtown Ottawa without massive impact.

I'm not sure how they came up with that number because it's nearly as large as Toronto Union's land area which covers about 46,000 m2 based on google maps measure tool if you include both the main station building and the sheltered part of the rail shed. If they're planning on using Toronto Union as a HSR station while it continues to host all the other services like GO, VIA local and Northlander, I can't see how an HSR station would require nearly as much space in a much smaller city. Unless they're including large surface parking and drop-off areas or something.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbanforest

One more thought on Union: People in Ottawa may complain that it isn't convenient for them to access a downtown station, that Tremblay or somewhere further afield would be more accessible to them, but I think this is shortsighted.

If you were visiting Toronto or Montreal for leisure (or business), would you rather arrive downtown or somewhere like Scarborough or Lachine? Alto will no doubt increase tourism to Ottawa, but those people won't be coming to see Barrhaven or Alta Vista, they'll be coming to see and stay in downtown.

Except that it's not the equivalent of arriving in Scarborough. That would be Guildwood. Tremblay is a 12 min LRT ride from downtown. That is closer than even the one time proposed Summerhill station for Toronto. It'd be like complaining about a station located where the ROM is in Toronto today. Y'all need to stop exaggerating things.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I'm not sure how they came up with that number because it's nearly as large as Toronto Union's land area which covers about 46,000 m2 based on google maps measure tool if you include both the main station building and the sheltered part of the rail shed. If they're planning on using Toronto Union as a HSR station while it continues to host all the other services like GO, VIA local and Northlander, I can't see how an HSR station would require nearly as much space in a much smaller city. Unless they're including large surface parking and drop-off areas or something.

Ottawa has much lower modal share of transit. They'd need more parking. And space for a bus terminal (intercity and some local).

[Nouvellecosse]

The transit terminal would make sense but one would hope that most of the parking would at least be underground. Large amounts of surface parking is as much a contributor to high auto modeshare as it is a response to it.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

REM will be quite useful for those coming from Quebec City and T-R. Much less doubling.back than for this coming from Ottawa.

Depends on the direction of travel. Either way, airport access by intercity rail is clearly more useful to those outside the city than those inside the city. It's the kind of multiplier I would have expected an HSR project to act on. When I attend a consultation I will be asking them about this.

[Kitchissippi]

Actually, of all the airports Quebec's Jean Lesage (YQB) is the one that's right in the path of HSR and could be a candidate for a transportation hub especially if they extend the tramway to it. Since QC is at the end of the line adding an HSR stop there wouldn't be much of a time penalty.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Sure, jobs are spread out, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that is more the case in Ottawa than in most Canadian cities. My point was that there is no other single area of the city that is the destination for more travellers. Or that is even close. Saying that jobs are spread out isn't an argument against putting the station in the most central area or closest to where most people are going.

Do you have any data suggesting that downtown isn't the biggest employment hub in the region anymore? It was the largest by far before the pandemic. (In 2016, downtown had 20% of all jobs in the region and the central area had 30%.). Or the biggest destination for business travellers? Or that it isn't the primary destination for tourists? The number of hotel rooms downtown dwarfs that of any other area, which is a pretty good indicator. There are several thousand hotel rooms within a 5 minute walk of Union.

I'm not sure what your comment about there being "limited population" downtown means. Downtown is the centre of population for the region and the most densely populated area of the city, which would give it the most population within walking distance or a short drive of a station. There hasn't been an origin-destination study published since 2022, which was before people were back in the office in large numbers, but even then the inner urban area was the biggest destination for Ottawa residents by a good margin. https://www.ncr-trans-rcn.ca/wp-content/...OD_Travel_Analysis_Report_v4_1%20_EN.pdf

I also don't get the comment that downtown isn't much of a transportation hub. You list LRT, local bus routes and Quebec rapid transit passing through, which sounds like a transportation hub to me. It's also right in the geographic middle of the transit system, which kind of guarantees that it will be a hub and makes it more convenient to more destinations than any other spot on the system, including Tremblay, which is not a hub for OC Transpo and requires a transfer from everywhere in Gatineau.

I've never really understood the argument that Ottawa is "spread out" is an argument against locating transportation and amenities centrally. If anything, it means that travel distances are longer in this region and a central location becomes even more important.

I think definitely more than other Canadian cities. Height restrictions prevent tall office buildings in the downtown core (as exist in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, etc). The tech sector (one of the larger private sector employers, and one likely to be a source of trips for an HSR system) has traditionally preferred to locate in the West end, past the greenbelt. The federal government (by far the largest employer in the region) has had a policy since the 1950s of spreading employment nodes all over the region, with major hubs in Hull, the West End (Tunney's, Dow's lake), the Greenbelt, Vanier, Gloucester, Barrhaven, etc.).

Downtown is not the centre of population in the area. The population skews heavily west (i.e. Nepean, Barrhaven, Kanata Stittsville are much more populous than Orleans and Gloucester). Residents of the city who do not live in the downtown/market (probably 95% of the population of the city) would be getting on transit, ubers, taxis, etc. to get to and from the station, all of which are not convenient from the Senate.

There is no Quebec rapid transit through downtown Ottawa. There has long been talk of some sort of LRT, but I believe that is still in the talk phase. I have never heard of local buses being characterized as a "transportation hub." If you want to get to the Senate from almost anywhere in the city you have to get on the LRT, which is on the same line as the train station, four stops away.