Alto High Speed Rail

[Kramata]

I think if someone wants to 'look out for Ottawa' the best thing to advocate for is contract terms that can allow negotiation on rail usage by non-Alto players instead almost treating Alto as a commuter rail agency.

Let's think ahead to a pretend scenario 3 decades ahead, Alto is wildly successful and Tremblay is bustling while the west end has and continues to grow. Maybe there's enough justification to use one of those old western railroad lines as a commuter line to Tremblay.

If we have a 99+ year contract that Alto can shut down any discussion and there is no mechanism for sharing the tracks or right of way, then it will be very difficult legally compared to if the contract has a mechanism for government or private entities to make use of an opportunity. 30-minute headway plus proper signalling can leave room for other services.

The risks of such contracts is that it can make partners nervous as it can leave them more open to unexpected costs, so that needs to be kept in mind. However it is less of a problem compared to scope creep with questionable economic benefit based on today's numbers.

We should let the line be built as effectively as possible and also leave mechanisms in place that allow add-ons and changes

[acottawa]

Alto is a crown corporation. It will put stops wherever the Federal Government wants them.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Shutting down YOW? A 50 minute HSR ride to Droval is not competitive with having our own airport.

HSR could fully eliminate short haul flights to Montreal and Toronto, and what I hope will happen is YOW and the airlines will be able to shift their focus to more service to other Canadian destinations and international flights.

.

I think it would depend on cost, frequency, timing, etc. All other things being equal trading a 50 minute train ride to avoid an air connection would be appealing to a lot of people, particularly if there was some integration of check-in or ticketing.

[Kitchissippi]

If HSR doesn’t go directly to Dorval or Pearson, forget about eliminating short haul flights from YOW to either. Why would anyone want to choose the train and have to take public transport to make a transfer? You’d have to add at least another hour buffer on your travel time. I’d rather stomach a multi hour layover with my bags already checked in.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If HSR doesn’t go directly to Dorval or Pearson, forget about eliminating short haul flights from YOW to either. Why would anyone want to choose the train and have to take public transport to make a transfer? You’d have to add at least another hour buffer on your travel time. I’d rather stomach a multi hour layover with my bags already checked in.

Yep, and that's someone traveling for leisure, if your travelling for business & just passing through Toronto/Montreal short haul plane will still be the better option of it didn't directly connect.

I'm hoping Alto has a defined business plan & a defined customer base there going for and are making decisions based on that & that alone instead of the whims of outside parties trying to impose there personal opinion/politics onto a rail system.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If HSR doesn’t go directly to Dorval or Pearson, forget about eliminating short haul flights from YOW to either. Why would anyone want to choose the train and have to take public transport to make a transfer? You’d have to add at least another hour buffer on your travel time. I’d rather stomach a multi hour layover with my bags already checked in.

HSR would still negate a lot of point to point travel. HSR would offer downtown to downtown travel times that are competitive with air. At that point flying only makes sense if you're connecting or your destination and/or origin are near the airport. We would see some reduction in the number of flights and particularly the size of aircraft between cities.

Will agree that eliminating short haul flights by law is impossible without at least one airport integration.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

Yep, and that's someone traveling for leisure, if your travelling for business & just passing through Toronto/Montreal short haul plane will still be the better option of it didn't directly connect.

The majority of travelers in the Corridor are still point to point. And a lot of frequent flyers who just go back and forth every week. These are the kind of people who can be convinced EU move to rail for the right price with the right convenience.

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

I'm hoping Alto has a defined business plan & a defined customer base there going for and are making decisions based on that & that alone instead of the whims of outside parties trying to impose there personal opinion/politics onto a rail system.

I am a bit worried that AC being part of the consortium night be influencing them away from air-rail integration and perceived competition. I hope not.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

HSR would still negate a lot of point to point travel. HSR would offer downtown to downtown travel times that are competitive with air. At that point flying only makes sense if you're connecting or your destination and/or origin are near the airport. We would see some reduction in the number of flights and particularly the size of aircraft between cities..

How many people really have downtown-to-downtown as their origin-destination? My guess is not the majority judging by people arriving and departing at YOW or Tremblay. For HSR to be viable it has to be far more polyvalent.

Interestingly, the last time I went to Montreal on business was a couple of months ago to visit a fabricator in Ville Saint-Laurent so close to Dorval airport you could see the runway. I drove with a colleague in his EV and it cost $8 in electricity each way. We had a car to drive door-to-door and the company had a free parking lot. The drive time as a great chance to brief and debrief. There was no way a flight or train ride could have competed. HSR has huge shoes to fill, especially because by the time it might be built we'd all be driving EVs.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

How many people really have downtown-to-downtown as their origin-destination? My guess is not the majority judging by people arriving and departing at YOW or Tremblay. For HSR to be viable it has to be far more polyvalent.

Interestingly, the last time I went to Montreal on business was a couple of months ago to visit a fabricator in Ville Saint-Laurent so close to Dorval airport you could see the runway. I drove with a colleague in his EV and it cost $8 in electricity each way. We had a car to drive door-to-door and the company had a free parking lot. The drive time as a great chance to brief and debrief. There was no way a flight or train ride could have competed. HSR has huge shoes to fill, especially because by the time it might be built we'd all be driving EVs.

I think it's probably true that car travel is always more appealing when two or more people are traveling together compared to a lone traveler. Someone alone in a car can't be very productive since driving demands constant attention preventing them from looking at screens or papers. But people can talk to one another and the passenger can look at a laptop, etc. Plus, when traveling together the cost per person is basically cut in half (or more depending number of people) since using a car results in basically the same amount of energy usage and depreciation for one person as for multiple. But I wonder how much intercity business travel happens alone compared to in pairs or groups? With urban transportation it's been pretty well documented that the average car tends to carry around 1.2 people meaning most car traffic carries only the driver. Would be interesting to see the occupancy rate of cars traveling between cities.

It also matters what parts of metro areas someone is traveling between by car since for some parts and times of day, traffic will have a huge affect on travel times reliability and traveler experience. There might not be much congestion to access the industrial areas around Trudeau airport from the west while to access areas on say, the east island might be brutal even though they're not downtown.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

How many people really have downtown-to-downtown as their origin-destination? My guess is not the majority judging by people arriving and departing at YOW or Tremblay. For HSR to be viable it has to be far more polyvalent.

Isn’t the answer to this that the downtowns are the origin and destination for more travellers than any other location? Pearson isn’t located where it is because it is a major destination, it’s because the land was available. Same thing with Ottawa - the biggest single destination for travellers is central Ottawa.

This is the arena location argument all over again. A downtown station serves the most travellers directly, and it is most central to other destinations in the region. It’s also the hub of the local transit system. HSR may very likely go to Tremblay for logistical and cost reasons, but the largest single destination for people getting off each train is going to be central Ottawa and there is unlikely to be a close second

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

How many people really have downtown-to-downtown as their origin-destination? My guess is not the majority judging by people arriving and departing at YOW or Tremblay. For HSR to be viable it has to be far more polyvalent.

Interestingly, the last time I went to Montreal on business was a couple of months ago to visit a fabricator in Ville Saint-Laurent so close to Dorval airport you could see the runway. I drove with a colleague in his EV and it cost $8 in electricity each way. We had a car to drive door-to-door and the company had a free parking lot. The drive time as a great chance to brief and debrief. There was no way a flight or train ride could have competed. HSR has huge shoes to fill, especially because by the time it might be built we'd all be driving EVs.

You do get that HSR will not be the 100% solution right? It's about moving the modal share. The downtown to downtown travel time is a rough standard to measure competitiveness for business travelers. Say somebody leaving from their office in downtown Toronto in the morning and trying to catch an afternoon meeting in Montreal. Real life, of course, is not so clear cut. Where you start from and where you're going is only part of the calculation. There's also the cost of parking. Mileage. Availability of a car. Etc. Sometimes you just need a car at the other end. So it might make sense to drive. I've driven for 5 hrs each way from Ottawa to Quebec City. With 4 of us in the car, was way cheaper than individual train or air fare.

I also think people imagine that Europeans don't drive at all and take HSR everywhere. That's not how it works.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Isn’t the answer to this that the downtowns are the origin and destination for more travellers than any other location? Pearson isn’t located where it is because it is a major destination, it’s because the land was available. Same thing with Ottawa - the biggest single destination for travellers is central Ottawa.

This is the arena location argument all over again. A downtown station serves the most travellers directly, and it is most central to other destinations in the region. It’s also the hub of the local transit system. HSR may very likely go to Tremblay for logistical and cost reasons, but the largest single destination for people getting off each train is going to be central Ottawa and there is unlikely to be a close second

I don't think that is really the case in Ottawa. There is limited population downtown. Downtown is not much of a transportation hub (just one LRT line and some local/Quebec buses, which is the same LRT line that serves the existing train station). Employment is very spread out, with most of the private sector located outside of the core along with most of the public sector jobs (really only the central agencies, transport, fisheries and justice have their main operations downtown).

[eltodesukane]

Ottawa needs a bus terminal, and better public transit,
much more than it needs high-speed train.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I also think people imagine that Europeans don't drive at all and take HSR everywhere. That's not how it works.

People are searching for alternative business models. The European model picking off air passengers and existing rail passengers is probably not enough to make a frequent train service plausibly full.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

People are searching for alternative business models. The European model picking off air passengers and existing rail passengers is probably not enough to make a frequent train service plausibly full.

Certainly not withouth engine size taxes discouraging large comfortable highway worthy vehicles. $2 a litre gas etc and most importantly shoving people into centrally located commie blocs. This is the WEF agenda (this is said kind of tongue in cheek but it's also true) but North America consistenly votes agains this.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don't think that is really the case in Ottawa. There is limited population downtown. Downtown is not much of a transportation hub (just one LRT line and some local/Quebec buses, which is the same LRT line that serves the existing train station). Employment is very spread out, with most of the private sector located outside of the core along with most of the public sector jobs (really only the central agencies, transport, fisheries and justice have their main operations downtown).

Sure, jobs are spread out, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that is more the case in Ottawa than in most Canadian cities. My point was that there is no other single area of the city that is the destination for more travellers. Or that is even close. Saying that jobs are spread out isn't an argument against putting the station in the most central area or closest to where most people are going.

Do you have any data suggesting that downtown isn't the biggest employment hub in the region anymore? It was the largest by far before the pandemic. (In 2016, downtown had 20% of all jobs in the region and the central area had 30%.). Or the biggest destination for business travellers? Or that it isn't the primary destination for tourists? The number of hotel rooms downtown dwarfs that of any other area, which is a pretty good indicator. There are several thousand hotel rooms within a 5 minute walk of Union.

I'm not sure what your comment about there being "limited population" downtown means. Downtown is the centre of population for the region and the most densely populated area of the city, which would give it the most population within walking distance or a short drive of a station. There hasn't been an origin-destination study published since 2022, which was before people were back in the office in large numbers, but even then the inner urban area was the biggest destination for Ottawa residents by a good margin. https://www.ncr-trans-rcn.ca/wp-cont...v4_1%20_EN.pdf

I also don't get the comment that downtown isn't much of a transportation hub. You list LRT, local bus routes and Quebec rapid transit passing through, which sounds like a transportation hub to me. It's also right in the geographic middle of the transit system, which kind of guarantees that it will be a hub and makes it more convenient to more destinations than any other spot on the system, including Tremblay, which is not a hub for OC Transpo and requires a transfer from everywhere in Gatineau.

I've never really understood the argument that Ottawa is "spread out" is an argument against locating transportation and amenities centrally. If anything, it means that travel distances are longer in this region and a central location becomes even more important.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Station locations are pretty much set for Montreal (Gare Centrale) and Toronto (Union Station) – but they are going through the show anyway. For Ottawa, there is a strong leaning towards Ottawa Station, on Tremblay. The specific tunnel routing into those larger stations remains to be finalized. [In Ottawa, a mostly segregated surface route already exists, and the RoW is likely wide enough to add additional tracks. This would be the least expensive option.]

Pretty much what I expected. Though Union in Ottawa would have been fantastic, I understand and hope this means Tremblay will get an upgrade, more connections (commuter rail + intercity buses) and land around it will be redeveloped.

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Some I talked to were not keen on the Laval node – specifically that all trains to and from Montreal would need to pass through Laval Station. But it seems that that configuration is, for some reason, already decided.

I think a lot of people find the Laval situation very strange.

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Stations in Toronto and Montreal will be dead-end stations.

I hope that for Toronto, there will be an opportunity to eventually make it a through station when HSR is extended to Southern Ontario and beyond.

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

The prices will need to be low enough that they draw in customers who would otherwise drive or take a bus. The flight cost between Montreal and Ottawa is so out-of-line, that it in a different league. The VIA Rail price might enter into the discussion, and pulling customers from VIA Rail will likely reduce VIA Rail service to bare minimum milk-runs. Typical prices and travel times for mid-day of mid-next-week are: VIA Rail = $62, 2h4; TourExpress bus = $35, 2h; drive = $15, 2h; Air Canada Jazz = $808, 0h52 + airport time. So, I expect that a Montreal to Ottawa ticket will run about $45-50. This likely means that the trains will be outfitted as higher density vehicles, similar to the OUIGO, in France to minimize the cost per passenger. There will be no way that the train will be price competitive with driving (unless there are high parking fees at the destination), especially if there is more than one person in the car. Marketing to drivers will need to be on speed and being productive.

I'd happily take the train for $50 if it gets me to my destination twice as quickly as the car + not have to think about car storage. At the current VIA prices, it's not really worth it if you're two considering how slow it is.

[J.OT13]

I agree with many of you that airport connections should have been considered. Not the Ottawa airport since it's not a hub and would require quite a detour, but Trudeau and Pearson. It's very strange to me that Laval was chosen for a station, but not Trudeau.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I agree with many of you that airport connections should have been considered. Not the Ottawa airport since it's not a hub and would require quite a detour, but Trudeau and Pearson. It's very strange to me that Laval was chosen for a station, but not Trudeau.

I think it's more about routing than anything else. There is no great way to get the trains downtown from Trudeau.

Pearson is still a possibility I would think in a later stage.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think it's more about routing than anything else. There is no great way to get the trains downtown from Trudeau.

Pearson is still a possibility I would think in a later stage.

Yeah, by choosing Laval, I doubt HSR will pass anywhere near the airport even though it's within their "bubble". As Richard Eade mentioned, they've probably already chosen the exact routing.

I think it will be 25 minutes on the REM to get from Gare Central to Trudeau, so even with that transfer, it will still be competitive with driving, though a short haul connecting flight would still be more convenient.

The choice to avoid Dorval could be CDPQ wanting to get more people on the REM, could be Air Canada wanting to preserve profitable short haul flights, but it's likely a space thing.

Hopefully we get a phase 2 (phase 3?) planned and ready to go by the time the current project is completed, and it includes a branch to Pearson Airport.