Alto High Speed Rail

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I agree, the point of HSR is to provide fast, reliable, frequent travel options between Canada's largest metros. To do so, I don't believe any city should have more than 1 stop.

If we could make Union Station work in Ottawa, I think it would be amazing to provide a central station that is connected to downtown, the LRT, most attractions, hotels, convention Centre, etc. If that can't happen due to costs, then Tremblay is the next best thing (a short LRT hop away from downtown). The idea that the station should be at the airport to provide travelers with better connections is horrible. This will be a very small market (compared to total passenger #s) and this options already exists (take VIA from Tremblay to Dorval, then free shuttle to YUL).

This is exactly why I am so vocal on scope creep. Every single group is trying to push their own interest at the expense of the wider project and goal. YOW airport advocates want a connectiont to help the airport. Urbanists want a Union station for what they hope will boost the downtown core. Barrhaven residents want a Fallowfield stop. Etc. All of this would slow down the overall train and increase the cost. And these are just demands in Ottawa. Wait till the rest are piled on. This is exactly how HS2 got buggered in the UK (all kinds of local environmental demands in that case). And was a significant factor in screwing up California HSR too.

I want this project to be successful. So I will speak out against anything that runs up cost and slows down service without substantial justification.

[lrt's friend]

How is maintainung Ottawa's 2 stations significant project creep? We can bring out stats all we want, we all know how. stats can be abused. Barrhaven is growing. Line 2 is already reasonably close and Phase 3 will bring LRT right to Fallowfield station. So, local population will rival Kingston in the not distant future and transit connection will improve. Fallowfield is already a better transit hub than Tremblay. Boardings will increase. Telling people to take an increasingly bogged down Queensway or pay $80 for Uber/Taxi. to reach Tremblay or a downtown station is not a selling point. Fallowfield is one of the reasons why we have the most trips on VIA's entire network.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You know what impacts me a lot more as an Ottawa resident? The lack of connection/stop at Dorval airport.

FWIW, I would have preferred an HSR alignment that passed by the Dorval VIA Station and having the REM extend there. That said, we could argue costs of Ottawa Union vs a whole other route to serve Dorval. You can just take the REM from Downtown Montreal to the Airport.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

FWIW, I would have preferred an HSR alignment that passed by the Dorval VIA Station and having the REM extend there. That said, we could argue costs of Ottawa Union vs a whole other route to serve Dorval. You can just take the REM from Downtown Montreal to the Airport.

Using REM is not significantly faster than current VIA service, so which new YUL users from Ottawa will switch to rail. Not many. In fact, we may lose riders if legacy rail service is reduced.

[mxg308]

Here me out on this farfetched idea: what if YUL shut down because of its constraints to grow beyond its current footprint and YOW became the new airport to serve both Montreal and Ottawa? HSR being at YOW would then make even more sense. I realize this idea is insane.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

How is maintainung Ottawa's 2 stations significant project creep? We can bring out stats all we want, we all know how. stats can be abused. Barrhaven is growing. Line 2 is already reasonably close and Phase 3 will bring LRT right to Fallowfield station. So, local population will rival Kingston in the not distant future and transit connection will improve. Fallowfield is already a better transit hub than Tremblay. Boardings will increase. Telling people to take an increasingly bogged down Queensway or pay $80 for Uber/Taxi. to reach Tremblay or a downtown station is not a selling point. Fallowfield is one of the reasons why we have the most trips on VIA's entire network.

The HSR is being built to serve the whole corridor. Not just Barrhaven. Start thinking in that context.

Just like you would think it silly if everybody in the east end (from Orleans to Rockland to Embrun) insisted on another airport to serve them, it's silly to insist on an HSR station to serve Barrhaven. Also, Fallowfield will still have regular VIA service. It just won't have Alto service.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

FWIW, I would have preferred an HSR alignment that passed by the Dorval VIA Station and having the REM extend there. That said, we could argue costs of Ottawa Union vs a whole other route to serve Dorval. You can just take the REM from Downtown Montreal to the Airport.

Nobody is asking for a second route to serve Dorval. I think we're all suggesting that it be part of the route to be built.

And I agree that taking the REM from downtown is possible. The complaint here is that this combination (HSR + REM) doesn't make it a competitive travel option.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Re 1 and 2 Yes it's true HSR. 7-8 minutes is very long. I suspect they are giving that likely false number in order to keep political pressure down to add too many stops. Dorval seems like a missed opportunity. Heck arguably just sell the land the Ottawa Airport is on to help pay the bills if we can get a 50 minute train to Dorval.

Shutting down YOW? A 50 minute HSR ride to Droval is not competitive with having our own airport.

HSR could fully eliminate short haul flights to Montreal and Toronto, and what I hope will happen is YOW and the airlines will be able to shift their focus to more service to other Canadian destinations and international flights.

Originally Posted by phil235

I don't think that HSR is the right technology for milk runs. You add in 4-5 stops and the advantages over regular rail start to diminish very quickly. There is also very little potential ridership warranting a stop on either of the routes shown. The only significant population centre between the three big cities is Peterborough, and even 80,000 is pretty debatable to warrant a stop, particularly given that there isn't much around. Maybe it will be big with Toronto people wanting to get to the cottage more quickly.

I agree. Barrhaven will keep its VIA station. If people from Barrhaven don't wan to take the O-Train, they can take a VIA train to Tremblay. For the airport, we could have a frequent bus from YOW to Tremblay via the SE Transitway.

We're talking about scope creep and slowing down trains with Union, but adding stations that aren't even considered is far more problematic.

Originally Posted by White Pine

Apologies as I'm in a rural area. Just by what I see so far, I honestly think that HFR was a better idea.

Also, what clientele will really use this other than VIA's current ridership? Maybe it will be more effective for montreal or QC- Toronto, but I don't see it making a huge difference in ottawa. Maybe it might take a chunk from the Porter crowd. But I was under the impression that a lot of the market for yyz-yow-yul flights was for connections, and I doubt very much that alto will affect that. Does anyone actually fly from ottawa to Toronto just because?

I only really see this as a premium service that will financially crater VIA while offering no real benefit. Smaller places may end up losing service and people there are more likely drivers so it might be counter productive.

Regarding station location, I'm sympathetic to both. Union has good transit access but the multimodal benefits of Tremblay (ie VIA, Ontario Northland), better taxi/pickup options and such give it the edge. Although one could argue that Union's central location distributes the passenger load more evenly on transit instead of joining line one where it will likely be already busy.

As per my rarely to YOWetal, HSR could replace all short-haul flights. It could very well eliminate thousands of car trips between the cities if the ticket price is right.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nobody is asking for a second route to serve Dorval. I think we're all suggesting that it be part of the route to be built.

And I agree that taking the REM from downtown is possible. The complaint here is that this combination (HSR + REM) doesn't make it a competitive travel option.

To hit Dorval, you need to change the route. Current planned route doesn't go near Dorval.

HSR + REM is still quicker than VIA today or driving your car and storing it for a ridiculous price at Dorval.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nobody is asking for a second route to serve Dorval. I think we're all suggesting that it be part of the route to be built.

And I agree that taking the REM from downtown is possible. The complaint here is that this combination (HSR + REM) doesn't make it a competitive travel option.

Double standard. You are advocating for three stations in Montreal.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Double standard. You are advocating for three stations in Montreal.

Montreal CMA has almost 3x the population of Ottawa CMA. So yes, 3x the stations. And more importantly, each of those stations would have substantial ridership, not just be whistlestops like Fallowfield.

Also, personally, I would have no issues trading Laval for Dorval.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The HSR is being built to serve the whole corridor. Not just Barrhaven. Start thinking in that context.

Just like you would think it silly if everybody in the east end (from Orleans to Rockland to Embrun) insisted on another airport to serve them, it's silly to insist on an HSR station to serve Barrhaven. Also, Fallowfield will still have regular VIA service. It just won't have Alto service.

There is a big difference between rail stations and airports offering national and international service and requiring enormous land areas. Rail stations require little space and offer limited relatively short distance destinations. If you want to capture the massive car market, you can't expect people to travel all the way across the city in the wrong direction then double back.

You advocate for Dorval, which will have a smaller market than Fallowfield. Dorval will mainly serve Ottawa residents flying internationally. I would like that convenience and I have said it but Fallowfield is still more important and will become even more important in the future.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You advocate for Dorval, which will have a smaller market than Fallowfield. Dorval will mainly serve Ottawa residents flying internationally. I would like that convenience and I have said it but Fallowfield is still more important and will become even more important in the future.

Pulling numbers out of thin air doesn't make it true.

Boardings per day in 2023

Dorval: 335
Fallowfield: 237

https://denisagar.com/?p=356

And that difference will become even larger if Dorval has HSR and can get air travelers from Ottawa, Trois-Rivieres, Quebec City, Peterborough and even Toronto.

And like I said, I have no issues ditching Laval for Dorval. Unfortunately, Laval has been forced as a suburban station in Montreal.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

The model is a PPP, so it’s not just the federal government paying. The private partner is responsible for the financing arrangement. The federal government will make contributions to the funding (possibly tilted towards operating costs), but a huge portion of the financing will be private money, and possibly money from development charges.

That is not how PPP projects work in Canada (or in most places). There is no indication on how the “execution phase” will be financed in any official documents. For the earlier phases, the federal government is directly paying or reimbursing all of the costs.

https://www.altotrain.ca/sites/defau...summary-en.pdf

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Pulling numbers out of thin air doesn't make it true.

Boardings per day in 2023

Dorval: 335
Fallowfield: 237

https://denisagar.com/?p=356

And that difference will become even larger if Dorval has HSR and can get air travelers from Ottawa, Trois-Rivieres, Quebec City, Peterborough and even Toronto.

And like I said, I have no issues ditching Laval for Dorval. Unfortunately, Laval has been forced as a suburban station in Montreal.

Your distaste for suburban residents has been evident for years.

REM service to the west island and PET airport will be game changer for travel patterns in Montreal.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Montreal CMA has almost 3x the population of Ottawa CMA. So yes, 3x the stations. And more importantly, each of those stations would have substantial ridership, not just be whistlestops like Fallowfield.

Also, personally, I would have no issues trading Laval for Dorval.

This is like Legault's "indice de ponts par million d’habitants" logic.

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/2...p?sharing=true

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Pulling numbers out of thin air doesn't make it true.

Boardings per day in 2023

Dorval: 335
Fallowfield: 237

https://denisagar.com/?p=356

And that difference will become even larger if Dorval has HSR and can get air travelers from Ottawa, Trois-Rivieres, Quebec City, Peterborough and even Toronto.

And like I said, I have no issues ditching Laval for Dorval. Unfortunately, Laval has been forced as a suburban station in Montreal.

I think that these numbers are an argument against both station locations.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think that these numbers are an argument against both station locations.

Dorval has a case with air-rail integration. The current numbers are reflective of the poor integration. It's not practical to travel by rail to Dorval to catch a flight from anywhere but Eastern Ontario and even then it takes hours. HSR would theoretically make Dorval a 45 min ride from Tremblay. That make its practical as an actual YOW alternative for a lot of Ottawa resident. If there are thru tickets sold, theoretically, HSR could also mean a Quebec City-Dorval trip in well under two hours on one seat. All the people who take connecting flights from Ottawa and Quebec City today could be moved to rail in this scenario.

I personally can't see Laval having better ridership than Dorval.

When it comes to the comparison though Fallowfield is substantially below Windsor. Closer to Oshawa. And most importantly, Fallowfield is about a seventh of Tremblay. That difference is large enough that it's not clear at all that Fallowfield functions as anything but a station for Barrhaven in reality. Doesn't seem to act like an actual reliever station for the city.

[lrt's friend]

We need to take off the rose colour glasses.

Legacy VIA service will be reduced when Alto opens.

Ottawa-Montreal may go from 5 trips to 2 or 3
Ottawa-Toronto may go from 8 or 10 trips to Ottawa-Jingston 4 trips
Montreal-Toronto may go from 5 or 6 trips to Montreal Kingston, 3 trips
Kingston - Toronto may go from around 12 trips to 7 trips

This reflects much lower ridership overall.

Also, Kingston becomes a hub so you may need to change trains in Kingston with additional wait times.

We use the same corridor Ottawa-Smiths Falls on separate tracks passing Fallowfield without stopping. A great look especially as a long term project.

We place Ottawa station downtown. Great for visitors. What about Ottawa residents? OK for
central Ottawa residents and some along Line 1. What about everybody else?

Ottawa has changed substantially since 1966 when Union Station closed. Ottawa is now three times bigger east-west and north-south.

What is our HSR market? Short-haul airline passengers? Others?

It is doubtful, I would ever use HSR if I have to go all the way downtown to reach HSR, whereas I use legacy much slower legacy VIA service. Why? It takes an hour to reach downtown by OC. There will be no parking option. Taxi-Uber will be around $50 each way. So we speed up train service while making access much worse.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Dorval has a case with air-rail integration. The current numbers are reflective of the poor integration. It's not practical to travel by rail to Dorval to catch a flight from anywhere but Eastern Ontario and even then it takes hours. HSR would theoretically make Dorval a 45 min ride from Tremblay. That make its practical as an actual YOW alternative for a lot of Ottawa resident. If there are thru tickets sold, theoretically, HSR could also mean a Quebec City-Dorval trip in well under two hours on one seat. All the people who take connecting flights from Ottawa and Quebec City today could be moved to rail in this scenario.

I personally can't see Laval having better ridership than Dorval.

When it comes to the comparison though Fallowfield is substantially below Windsor. Closer to Oshawa. And most importantly, Fallowfield is about a seventh of Tremblay. That difference is large enough that it's not clear at all that Fallowfield functions as anything but a station for Barrhaven in reality. Doesn't seem to act like an actual reliever station for the city.

Peterborough and Trois Rivière has zero passengers. Cancel both.

Laval only has 450, 000 residents Add North Montreal to bring it to 1,000,000. Not enough . Cancel it. Likewise for a suburban station. Northeast Toronto

Much more important to serve the elite who travel internationally regularly than the average joe with a Honda that lives anywhere in Ottawa suburbs.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We need to take off the rose colour glasses.

Legacy VIA service will be reduced when Alto opens.

Ottawa-Montreal may go from 5 trips to 2 or 3
Ottawa-Toronto may go from 8 or 10 trips to Ottawa-Jingston 4 trips
Montreal-Toronto may go from 5 or 6 trips to Montreal Kingston, 3 trips
Kingston - Toronto may go from around 12 trips to 7 trips

This reflects much lower ridership overall.

Also, Kingston becomes a hub so you may need to change trains in Kingston with additional wait times.

We use the same corridor Ottawa-Smiths Falls on separate tracks passing Fallowfield without stopping. A great look especially as a long term project.

We place Ottawa station downtown. Great for visitors. What about Ottawa residents? OK for residents in central Ottawa residents and some along Line 1. What about everybody else?

Ottawa has changed substantially since 1966 when Union Station closed. Ottawa is now three times bigger east-west and north-south.

What is our HSR market? Short-haul airline passengers? Others?

It is doubtful, I would ever use HSR if I have to go all the way downtown to reach HSR, whereas I use legacy much slower legacy VIA service. Why? It takes an hour to reach downtown by OC. There will be parking option. Taxi-Uber will be around $50 each way. So we speed up train service while making access much worse.

If you are suggesting that overall ridership on VIA plus Alto is going to be lower, that doesn't make any sense to me. Alto is going to have hourly trains at a minimum and will make rail far more attractive. It won't be close.

Also not sure why VIA trains would stop in Kingston forcing a change to another change. I don't think that aspect of VIA operations would likely change from what you see today - through trains going from Montreal-Toronto and Toronto to Ottawa with 6-8 stops on the way. The majority of travellers will always be travelling through Kingston, not stopping there.

As for the advantages of locating a station in Fallowfield, I think you are overstating the convenience such a station provides. Perhaps it's good for your location, but it's not exactly convenient for most people outside the greenbelt. As was mentioned earlier, for the majority Tremblay is going to be closer or relatively equivalent, because it is a much more central location (and frankly already serves a good chunk of the south end suburbs inside the greenbelt quite well given its excellent car access).

There is no way Fallowfield is going to generate as much ridership as Dorval, with more population nearby, more business and industry and a major airport connection. I think that if you look at this objectively, it is a stretch to argue either that Ottawa has the population to warrant two stations, or that Fallowfield is a particularly good location for a second station. The current project scope does not include a second Ottawa station (or a third one - why not something in the east end as well?), and it will be very difficult to justify the cost and delay it represents.