Alto High Speed Rail

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by misterg

It really doesn't make sense to me the need for two stations in the Montreal metro area so close together. I feel it would just slow down the route and adds extra cost with little value.

I think the Laval station would allow certain runs (if the demand arises) to bypass downtown Montreal, say an occasional faster Ottawa-Quebec City run. If the Metro or REM is extended to the Laval station it might not be a big deal for some people.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This push and the stupid comments online ("What about Ottawa Union? For the 100th time) show exactly why it's good that this project is with a hands off private sector developer. Turning this into some city building project for every city en route would worsen the travel time and balloon the cost while killing ridership.

Good reason for Alto to simply rejects the southern routing now.

Yeah, the amount of foolishness that is going into the push for Union station, or stopping in Kingston or numerous other rink'a'dink towns along the way just needs to be quickly, directly & forceful shot down.

Nvm, that the interactive map is clogged with nymbism & dismissal hidden behind one reason or another.

HSR only works if its actually high speed & relatively frequent. It has to compete in travel times with air travel, city bus travel, or single occupant vehicle travel.

[rocketphish]

Ottawa’s original grand downtown train station under consideration for city’s high speed rail hub

Bill Curry, Sean Silcoff, The Globe and Mail
January 17, 2026 | Published 5 hours ago

Ottawa’s historic former downtown train station, now the Senate’s temporary home, is under consideration to be an urban hub as officials plan for Canada’s first high-speed rail line.

Alto, the government body leading the proposed megaproject, launched consultations this week that include a map of the proposed route from Toronto through Ottawa and Montreal and ending in Quebec City.

Ottawa’s original downtown Union Station, which opened in 1912, and the current Via Rail station, located southeast of the downtown, are both included as possible locations for the capital’s high-speed terminus.

Alto CEO Martin Imbleau is on a speaking tour to promote the project, which, if it proceeds, would begin with construction of the Montreal-Ottawa link.

After a Jan. 12 presentation at the Ottawa Board of Trade, he told The Globe and Mail that both buildings are under consideration, along with other downtown locations, and will be evaluated according to multiple criteria.

“It needs to be feasible, it needs to be fast,” he said. “Your journey time has to be reduced significantly. So, you don’t position your station because it’s a tourist attraction. The one key location factor is ensuring that your journey time is as short as possible to reach your destination.”

Many civic boosters have complained for years about the relative inconvenience of the current train station, which is four stops from downtown on the city’s light-rail public-transportation system. The prospect of intercity train service returning to downtown Ottawa is seen as a way to help revitalize a core that has been hard-hit by a slow return to the office by government workers after the height of the pandemic.

“We would love it to be downtown,” said Sueling Ching, chief executive officer of the Ottawa Board of Trade, in an interview. “It would create a whole new sense of vibrancy” and “catalyze the downtown.”

Ottawa Mayor Mark Sutcliffe called Alto an exciting project with potential to “make this part of the country smaller in a good way, and more connected.”

While he said in an interview that he was open to where the station could be located, he said a downtown location would be very appealing.

“Absolutely, the opportunity for that building, right in the heart of downtown Ottawa, to be a hub of some kind is huge,” he said, recalling how his own father arrived in Ottawa 60 years ago at Union Station, travelling from New York City after emigrating from England.

The columned Grand Beaux-Arts-style Union Station is located alongside the Rideau Canal and within easy walking distance to the National Arts Centre, the Parliament buildings and Byward Market. It’s across the street from the city’s Chateau Laurier hotel, the city’s main conference centre and the Rideau Centre shopping mall.

But 60 years have passed since the last train left the station. Passenger service was relocated to the present, open glass and steel station in 1966.

That move was part of a mid-century project from French urban planner and architect Jacques Gréber that transformed the city’s look and layout. The plan, commissioned by the government of then-prime minister Mackenzie King, was meant to beautify the Capital. It replaced rail lines with urban arteries, highways, parkways and green spaces.

While Ottawa lost its downtown train service it allowed for the transformation of the eastern flank of the Rideau Canal from a gritty railbed into the scenic Colonel By Drive and accompanying pathway.

For decades, the old station was underused but served as a government conference centre for key gatherings. It was the site of 1981 meetings that led to the repatriation of the Constitution and, in 1990, failed talks to save the Meech Lake Accord.

It played host to the first G20 conference after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the U.S., and has recently been renovated to house the Senate Chamber while Parliament’s Centre Block is being renovated.

“The building is stunning and it has some architectural integrity that would give it an enormous amount of cachet,” said Ross Meredith, general manager of the Westin Ottawa hotel facing the station, adding that he doesn’t know if the building meets what would be required.
Open this photo in gallery:

The prospect of intercity train service returning to downtown Ottawa could help revitalize a core that has been hard-hit in recent years.Blair Gable

“But logically there is some history there that suggests it could be a stunningly beautiful place.”

Valérie Dufour, a spokesperson for the National Capital Commission, which manages the Rideau Canal and the areas around it, said in an e-mail that the agency is “excited by the ambition” of the project and is open to collaborating with Alto, but did not comment directly on the potential use of the downtown station.

The consultation and design process will lead to a final decision by the government, expected in 2029, on whether to fund the project. Ottawa has already approved billions in funding for planning work. If approved, construction could begin that year and the first segment would open around 2037.

Alto has said that the total project may cost $60-billion to $90-billion and could be partly funded by private investors.

The new map of the proposed line is similar to past versions, except for the Peterborough-to-Ottawa segment, which shows two options: one that follows a more northern route across the Canadian Shield, and another further south.

Alto spokesman Benoit Bourdeau said the northern option would cut through harder rock formations that could affect construction and cost. The southern option avoids some of that terrain but would be longer and add to travel times.

Mr. Imbleau has also declined to say whether the line would stop at Toronto’s Union Station. “The objective would be to have a station in the vicinity of Union Station,” he recently told a Senate committee.

The latest map suggests there will be stations in suburban Laval, north of the Island of Montreal, as well as downtown Montreal, but the precise locations are not indicated.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics...n-train-station-high-speed-rail-hub-via/

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

That move was part of a mid-century project from French urban planner and architect Jacques Gréber that transformed the city’s look and layout. The plan, commissioned by the government of then-prime minister Mackenzie King, was meant to beautify the Capital. It replaced rail lines with urban arteries, highways, parkways and green spaces.

While Ottawa lost its downtown train service it allowed for the transformation of the eastern flank of the Rideau Canal from a gritty railbed into the scenic Colonel By Drive and accompanying pathway.

That's the part I'm not following with all the downtown talk. There's no tracks going to downtown Ottawa and there doesn't appear to be a way to create any without reclaiming park space which I can't see being very popular. Especially since the park space in question isn't just ordinary space but rather a very prominent part of town near the landmark canal. So I'm exactly sure what people are proposing and guesses make me nervous of scope creep.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

That's the part I'm not following with all the downtown talk. There's no tracks going to downtown Ottawa and there doesn't appear to be a way to create any without reclaiming park space which I can't see being very popular. Especially since the park space in question isn't just ordinary space but rather a very prominent part of town near the landmark canal. So I'm exactly sure what people are proposing and guesses make me nervous of scope creep.

I have the same thoughts. There’s already a bottleneck at that crazy Elgin/Wellington/Rideau/Sussex intersection, I can’t imagine adding the kind of drop off/pick up scenario that happens at Tremblay.

The cost of tunneling into that site would be enormous, I would rather that money and effort be spent on something like a Bank Street subway that Ottawans can use everyday not just occasionally when they want to go out of town.

A downtown station is great for the minority of visitors, but for most of us who live here or visit friends and family it’s actually inconvenient.

[urbanforest]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Alto spokesman Benoit Bourdeau said the northern option would cut through harder rock formations that could affect construction and cost. The southern option avoids some of that terrain but would be longer and add to travel times.

This is interesting context. Knowing that area a bit, I find it hard to imagine that you wouldn't still be blasting through shield every few kilometres, but I suppose the word "some" is doing heavy lifting in that statement.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

That's the part I'm not following with all the downtown talk. There's no tracks going to downtown Ottawa and there doesn't appear to be a way to create any without reclaiming park space which I can't see being very popular. Especially since the park space in question isn't just ordinary space but rather a very prominent part of town near the landmark canal. So I'm exactly sure what people are proposing and guesses make me nervous of scope creep.

Beside the canal would be relatively easy in my view. You could cut and cover under Colonel By. The tricky part would be getting across the Rideau River and more than that, the 417. The straightest route would be to follow the old alignment, from Tremblay across the Rideau and perpindicular across the 417/Nicholas/Lees/LRT spaghetti to Col. By. But that would either require a very complex, ugly, and expensive bridge, or an expensive tunnel. Going through Springhurst Park would be a bit simpler but require a sharper turn.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I have the same thoughts. There’s already a bottleneck at that crazy Elgin/Wellington/Rideau/Sussex intersection, I can’t imagine adding the kind of drop off/pick up scenario that happens at Tremblay.

Ok, imagining all of the drop offs and pickups from Union pretty much just completely killed the idea for me.

I hope we can think of a grand and worthy permanent use for that building, though. It deserves to be more than government overflow space.

[J.OT13]

“It needs to be feasible, it needs to be fast,” he said. “Your journey time has to be reduced significantly. So, you don’t position your station because it’s a tourist attraction. The one key location factor is ensuring that your journey time is as short as possible to reach your destination.”

It's strange to me that you would eliminate reopening the grand railroad station in the centre of your capital to save on travel time, but would build a station in some suburb that's already well connected the its own central city.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It's strange to me that you would eliminate reopening the grand railroad station in the centre of your capital to save on travel time, but would build a station in some suburb that's already well connected the its own central city.

Alto is a private consortium that is driven by profit. History and beauty don't generate revenue. Ridership does, and that is affected by both travel time and convenience. If having the station downtown increases overall ridership then it is worth considering.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by urbanforest

This is interesting context. Knowing that area a bit, I find it hard to imagine that you wouldn't still be blasting through shield every few kilometres, but I suppose the word "some" is doing heavy lifting in that statement.



Beside the canal would be relatively easy in my view. You could cut and cover under Colonel By. The tricky part would be getting across the Rideau River and more than that, the 417. The straightest route would be to follow the old alignment, from Tremblay across the Rideau and perpindicular across the 417/Nicholas/Lees/LRT spaghetti to Col. By. But that would either require a very complex, ugly, and expensive bridge, or an expensive tunnel. Going through Springhurst Park would be a bit simpler but require a sharper turn.



Ok, imagining all of the drop offs and pickups from Union pretty much just completely killed the idea for me.

I hope we can think of a grand and worthy permanent use for that building, though. It deserves to be more than government overflow space.

I have a great plan for the drop-offs and pickups from Union

https://ottawa.skyrisecities.com/forum/threads/alto-high-speed-rail.42782/post-2338932

[Mikeed]

Just want to say:
1) Alto is not a private corporation, it is a Crown Corp answerable to the Minister of Transport and Cabinet. It was originally a subsidiary of VIA rail.

2) The private sector is the build consortium. This is how we have always done mega projects like the CANDU builds or dams.

3) I think old Union station is clearly in play because we can do what we couldn't do in the 60s and run a TBM under Ottawa. I see essentially 0 good ROWs in Ottawa outside the airport. Look at California and HS2 in the UK. Massive TBM. We can do a lot of rural surface running and invest more in urban TBM routing.

4) I think a new Mount Royal tunnel is very likely.

There is no half assing HSR. It's a forever project. And Ontario has been dominated by half assed transit projects so I don't think there will be appetite to do anything but TBM most of the urban sections.

The grand strategy of Alto "why now" is the calculus that's been between the lines since the 90s HSR studies:
- the engineering has to be perfect
- costs can not be deminished
- the last time we did something like this was the seaway where we fairly seriously designed a 100% Canadian route that meant building a whole new river for ourselves, **that's how important it was precived to the political economy of the future** we seriously designed a copy of the Saint Lawrence for ourselves.
- Alto is the same political economy scale engineering program and it's all about **sectorial carbon budgets under Paris Treaty**.
- just as the French model of HSR TGV (which ours is based on) and the Japanese it's all about lacking oil and electrification of air travel. The French TGV was designed during the energy crisis to basically run intercity business/elite class air travel via nuclear reactors. Japan has never had the raw flow of domestic oil straight into domestic jet fuel like Canada has. Every HSR study has basically pushed it till we "had to" based on one thing: our domestic integrated jet fuel supply

Now that sectorial carbon budgets are a big thing. Our entire economy runs on diesel. More then most urban Canadians understand. Freight railroads, mining, energy, forestry, construction (condos), commercial fishery (diesel not bunker fuel for freighters) - this is the real Canadian economy. This is very hard to electrify. The whip hand is going to come for the easy stuff first.

If you think of Canada as an archipelago nation and we are. We can electrify air travel in the core island, but we still need jet fuel & carbon to get from the core island to the western, pacific, atlantic and nothern islands.


So all engineering decision are really about how do we crush this sectorial carbon budget so we can have a large primary diesel budget for our real economy.

And construction has to happen now before sectorial carbon budgets get tighter. Cause building this is going to be a massive amount of carbon and diesel.

Under Paris each state gets to chose which sectors to crush and which to protect. It's why if we clean up the upstream oil sands it doesn't matter that we export carbon as that is budgeted by the state importing in for where they need it.

This is just a type of analysis I don't think is expressed much but is truly driving the decision making. I think it's very likely we see a return to the old train station with a mined station under ground. I think it's logical to connect to Rideau Station LRT and the NAC, War Memorial Plaza via a lot of mining and tunneling.

Some of this will be not be news. Not I think it means for the first time in a long time we really are prepared to spare no expense.

The HFR plan was killed primarily by the sectorial carbon budget world of post 2050, which is just starting to arrive now. **It did nothing for this core political economy issue.**

I hope we see the "Northern route" near the transmission line through the hard rock in the Peterborough to Ottawa section. Let's make some money creating good jobs and do it right. None of this post 90s "cheap and clever" that has back fired over and over and over. Cough Otrain.

[c_speed3108]

To me I am BIG fan of using the old Union station.

One way to make it cheaper would be to remove Col By Drive between Main and Daly. There would still need to be some tunneling around the Queensway but the problem would get simpler.

All that said.....

If I was running/designing the project I think phase 1 (Ott-Mon) should run into the station on Tremblay...why? because it is dead easy.

This is already a huge undertaking and the most important thing is to start getting stuff built and operational so lessons can be learned.

A move to downtown could be built as part of the later phase.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

So all engineering decision are really about how do we crush this sectorial carbon budget so we can have a large primary diesel budget for our real economy.

And construction has to happen now before sectorial carbon budgets get tighter. Cause building this is going to be a massive amount of carbon and diesel.

I'm not getting your point. The distance between Tremblay and the old Union station is virtually parallel to an LRT system we've already spent billions on. Do you think it's worth throwing billions more and expending massive amounts of carbon and diesel to build a duplicate rail line just to save some passengers a 5-minute, 4-station ride worth $4 on the O-Train? It makes zero environmental or economic sense. I would rather the HSR ticket include a day pass on OC Transpo and the city be given the billions in exchange to expand the reach of the O-Train to more parts of the city.

[acottawa]

The senate isn’t even a particularly convenient location for most people. There is limited parking, there is limited room for pickups and drop-offs, there are no inter model connections. Unless you are staying at the Chateau Laurier or Westin then it isn’t particularly convenient.

It would be nice if they built a covered connection between the LRT and the train station instead of sending people outside.

[phil235]

I think it is unlikely that Union will be chosen due to cost, but is parking really the big consideration in terms of convenience? A Union location would bring business visitors right into the heart of the city, which would be a big competitive advantage over other modes of transportation. It would also be great for tourists and better than Tremblay.

As for intermodal connections, there is literally an LRT station across the street and the biggest concentration of buses in the city within a block. If you are digging a tunnel for HSR, you could pretty easily add a connection directly to Rideau Station if warranted, but the walk to LRT is shorter than the walk at Tremblay.

Auto access is definitely a challenge, as the site is limited and you’d really have to cut into public space to build a drop off for private cars. There’s probably room for a taxi loop either in front by repurposing a lane of Wellington or behind. Private car drop offs would need to be on a reconfigured Daly as suggested earlier or on Elgin connected by a new bridge over the canal. Either is perfect, but they might make sense to gain the other advantages of being right downtown.

[rocketphish]

5 key questions on high-speed rail as public consultations launch
Public outreach in Ottawa begins Wednesday

Priscilla Ki Sun Hwang · CBC News
Posted: Jan 21, 2026 4:00 AM EST | Last Updated: 1 hour ago

Public consultations start Wednesday on an ambitious project being sold as a nation-building "generational investment."

But big questions remain about the planned high-speed rail corridor between Toronto and Quebec City, including where the trains will stop along the way.

The Crown corporation tasked with overseeing the project, Alto, says the consultations will aim to address that.

In Ottawa, they'll take place at Bayview Yards on Wednesday and Thursday from 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. and 5 p.m. to 9 p.m. Open houses will also be held across Quebec and Ontario from January to March, including Gatineau, Que., on March 11.

Almost a year ago, Justin Trudeau's Liberals announced a six-year, $3.9-billion design and development plan for the 1,000-kilometre high-speed rail line.

It will use all-electric trains reaching speeds of 300 km/h, taking about two hours to travel from Ottawa to Toronto and about one hour to get from Ottawa to Montreal, slashing Via Rail's travel time by about half.

In December, Prime Minister Mark Carney's government announced the first leg of the 200-kilometre corridor will go between Montreal and Ottawa, including a stop in Laval, Que.

"It's not if, now. It's how and when," Martin Imbleau, Alto's president and CEO, told CBC's Ottawa Morning on Tuesday.

"We missed the boat in the 80s, so in 2026, it's even more required than before," he said. "So let's do it for real this time."

<more>

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/5-...as-public-consultations-launch-9.7052807

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I'm not getting your point. The distance between Tremblay and the old Union station is virtually parallel to an LRT system we've already spent billions on. Do you think it's worth throwing billions more and expending massive amounts of carbon and diesel to build a duplicate rail line just to save some passengers a 5-minute, 4-station ride worth $4 on the O-Train? It makes zero environmental or economic sense. I would rather the HSR ticket include a day pass on OC Transpo and the city be given the billions in exchange to expand the reach of the O-Train to more parts of the city.

We could argue the same with Montreal or Toronto. HSR will run parallel to the REM. Why bother when the REM and the Orange line are right there? Just stop in Laval and continue east without the detour through Montreal.

In Toronto, maybe the end of the Ontario Line or a GO Line would suffice.

Quebec City? "Last stop. Ste-Foy! Take the Tram-Cité to Vieux-Québec".

Originally Posted by acottawa

The senate isn’t even a particularly convenient location for most people. There is limited parking, there is limited room for pickups and drop-offs, there are no inter model connections. Unless you are staying at the Chateau Laurier or Westin then it isn’t particularly convenient.

It would be nice if they built a covered connection between the LRT and the train station instead of sending people outside.

Originally Posted by phil235

I think it is unlikely that Union will be chosen due to cost, but is parking really the big consideration in terms of convenience? A Union location would bring business visitors right into the heart of the city, which would be a big competitive advantage over other modes of transportation. It would also be great for tourists and better than Tremblay.

As for intermodal connections, there is literally an LRT station across the street and the biggest concentration of buses in the city within a block. If you are digging a tunnel for HSR, you could pretty easily add a connection directly to Rideau Station if warranted, but the walk to LRT is shorter than the walk at Tremblay.

Auto access is definitely a challenge, as the site is limited and you’d really have to cut into public space to build a drop off for private cars. There’s probably room for a taxi loop either in front by repurposing a lane of Wellington or behind. Private car drop offs would need to be on a reconfigured Daly as suggested earlier or on Elgin connected by a new bridge over the canal. Either is perfect, but they might make sense to gain the other advantages of being right downtown.

Don't forget the STO tram that could stop right in front of Union when the loop is built.

For the same reason why Downtown is considered essential for Montreal, Toronto and Quebec City, Union would be ideal.

Parking is the only challenge, but how much parking do we actually need? Union would be easily accessible by transit for a lot of people. Maybe Alto could work with CF to dedicate some Rideau Centre parking to Alto, or malls on the O-Train Line. Maybe they can work with the City do dedicate some Park and Ride space for Alto long term parking. There are out of the box ways to provide parking without it being at the station.

Union is no longer just the dream of a bunch of train nerds. It is very much in play according to Alto themselves. I hope that cost is not the only factor as it's clearly not in other cities. If it was, we wouldn't be building HSR in the first place.

I still expect Tremblay to be chosen fwiw, but I think Union will always be in the back of people's mind, even at Alto.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think it is unlikely that Union will be chosen due to cost, but is parking really the big consideration in terms of convenience?

Depends. Internationally, you'll see suburban HSR stations that are kind of planned out like airports with large long-stay lots and car rental counters. I assume this might be what happens at Tremblay. They'll need large multi-storey parking structures and car rentals. Those services get distributed if the station is located in an urban area. They'd probably end up coordinating something with the Rideau Centre. Even if just for car rentals.

We should have used Ottawa Union for the Rideau stop. Its our fault we cheaped out. It's stupid to now try and get Alto to do our city building to the detriment of every through passenger on their system. Looking forward to them rejecting this idea.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We could argue the same with Montreal or Toronto. HSR will run parallel to the REM. Why bother when the REM and the Orange line are right there? Just stop in Laval and continue east without the detour through Montreal.

In Toronto, maybe the end of the Ontario Line or a GO Line would suffice.

Quebec City? "Last stop. Ste-Foy! Take the Tram-Cité to Vieux-Québec".





Don't forget the STO tram that could stop right in front of Union when the loop is built.

For the same reason why Downtown is considered essential for Montreal, Toronto and Quebec City, Union would be ideal.

Parking is the only challenge, but how much parking do we actually need? Union would be easily accessible by transit for a lot of people. Maybe Alto could work with CF to dedicate some Rideau Centre parking to Alto, or malls on the O-Train Line. Maybe they can work with the City do dedicate some Park and Ride space for Alto long term parking. There are out of the box ways to provide parking without it being at the station.

Union is no longer just the dream of a bunch of train nerds. It is very much in play according to Alto themselves. I hope that cost is not the only factor as it's clearly not in other cities. If it was, we wouldn't be building HSR in the first place.

I still expect Tremblay to be chosen fwiw, but I think Union will always be in the back of people's mind, even at Alto.

I don’t think parking is the only challenge. Pickups and dropoffs are a huge challenge, If it is a terminal station it adds a bunch of time, if it is a through station a multi-year tunnelling project would be necessary.

Very few HSR trains in Europe have stations that are in the historic centres of their respective cities (Florence is the only example I can think of off hand, and Mussolini was more willing to use a bulldozer than any Canadian politicians). In London, Paris, Moscow, Rome, Copenhagen, Barcelona, Berlin, Vienna, New York, Montreal, etc. you would expect to connect to a taxi, metro, etc. if you were going to the traditional city centre. Hopefully the NCC will develop some of the wasteland around Tremblay so that there would be more amenities available.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don’t think parking is the only challenge. Pickups and dropoffs are a huge challenge, If it is a terminal station it adds a bunch of time, if it is a through station a multi-year tunnelling project would be necessary.

Very few HSR trains in Europe have stations that are in the historic centres of their respective cities (Florence is the only example I can think of off hand, and Mussolini was more willing to use a bulldozer than any Canadian politicians). In London, Paris, Moscow, Rome, Copenhagen, Barcelona, Berlin, Vienna, New York, Montreal, etc. you would expect to connect to a taxi, metro, etc. if you were going to the traditional city centre. Hopefully the NCC will develop some of the wasteland around Tremblay so that there would be more amenities available.

Pickups and drop offs can easily be placed at the back where they currently are for the Senate. You could use more of Daly avenue and/or Colonel By if needed.

European cities don't have a clear and defined Downtown like North American cities, and usually have fantastic transit to get people anywhere in town. Trembaly Station has a fine connection to Downtown, but if you're going anywhere else, it's not very convenient.

New York and Montreal have their stations in their city centres, so not sure where you're going with those examples.

[Truenorth00]

What's the goal here? What exactly is achieved for both Ottawa pax and thru pax with placing that station downtown?