Port of Vancouver Discussion

[officedweller]

Cool.
It lines up with the Raymur/Burrard spur line really well:


https://www.google.com/maps/place/855+Ce...I2MDEwNy4wIKXMDSoKLDEwMDc5MjA2OUgBUAM%3D

[casper]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

The Vancouver terminal is at 855 Centennial Road near the Rogers Sugar building.

https://iaac-aeic.gc.ca/050/evaluations/proj/89470?culture=en-CA

It is an interesting strategy....

The Nanaimo terminal is a duke point (https://maps.app.goo.gl/hUqJXhfPkmCKiu9D8). Two of the old overhead cranes that came out of Port of Vancouver were refurbished and moved to the island.

There was talk (but I don't think anything came of it) in having a terminal in Port Alberni, transferring containers to/from Vancouver by barge.

I think we are talking about a contain terminal like between Vancouver and Nanaimo at this point.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by casper

It is an interesting strategy....

The Nanaimo terminal is a duke point (https://maps.app.goo.gl/hUqJXhfPkmCKiu9D8). Two of the old overhead cranes that came out of Port of Vancouver were refurbished and moved to the island.

There was talk (but I don't think anything came of it) in having a terminal in Port Alberni, transferring containers to/from Vancouver by barge.

I think we are talking about a contain terminal like between Vancouver and Nanaimo at this point.

DP World is completing the Nanaimo container upgrades for September 2027.

Key project components of the proposed expansion include:

Extension of the existing berth from 182 to 320 metres to accommodate international vessels as well as short sea shipping between Nanaimo and Vancouver.
Replacement of the existing diesel quay crane with 2 fully electric Quay Cranes.
Expansion of the Terminal capacity to 280K TEU, with the increase to 28 acres.
Addition of a new Pulp Shed.
CBSA Radiation Portal.
Upgrades to additional facilities, including operations, longshore, and lighting enhancements to facilitate round-the-clock operations.

https://www.dpworld.com/en/canada/projects/nanaimo

[WarrenC12]

What do large container trucks pay to travel on BC Ferries? Are they subsidizing car traffic or the other way around? This Salish Sea transport sounds like a great development.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What do large container trucks pay to travel on BC Ferries? Are they subsidizing car traffic or the other way around? This Salish Sea transport sounds like a great development.

I think they pay per foot. There's a saver fare available at $5 per foot, which is 33% below normal fare, and it's available on the less busy crossings. The DP World operation isn't the only alternative to the ferries. Seaspan has ro-ro freight ferries between the lower mainland and Vancouver Island. The difference is that this operation will just move the containers, not the trailer (and in some cases, the truck).

[madog222]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What do large container trucks pay to travel on BC Ferries? Are they subsidizing car traffic or the other way around? This Salish Sea transport sounds like a great development.

Commercial fares are shown on the BC Ferries website, a container trailer looks to be around $500 for drop trailer service. But generally BC Ferries' and Seaspan's drop trailer services aren't used for containers.

Short sea container shipping on barges already exists here but currently uses the main wharf at the container terminals. This takes up berth space available for deep sea container ships.

Practically, this dedicated facility's purpose is to remove the local container barges from using the main terminal. Of course, by removing the interference with deep sea vessel berthing and increasing efficiency this facility should incuduce demand for the service.

[Migrant_Coconut]

What kind of ships should we expect here? Don't think we need the usual Panamaxes just to ship stuff to the Island.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

What kind of ships should we expect here? Don't think we need the usual Panamaxes just to ship stuff to the Island.

Probably just the same old container barges they use on the mainland-Island routes.



https://maritimemag.com/en/cip-announces-plans-to-build-danish-green-ammonia-production-plant/

[casper]

Originally Posted by madog222

Commercial fares are shown on the BC Ferries website, a container trailer looks to be around $500 for drop trailer service. But generally BC Ferries' and Seaspan's drop trailer services aren't used for containers.

Short sea container shipping on barges already exists here but currently uses the main wharf at the container terminals. This takes up berth space available for deep sea container ships.

Practically, this dedicated facility's purpose is to remove the local container barges from using the main terminal. Of course, by removing the interference with deep sea vessel berthing and increasing efficiency this facility should incuduce demand for the service.

The Port Alberni Port Authority has been floating the idea of offloading/loading international containers in their port and then transferring them onto barges to be moved into Vancouver or Seattle.

The argument for doing this is their port is less congested so it reduces pressure and wait times on getting into Vancouver or Seattle. I don't know how viable that is. Given they don't have cargo container handling facilities today. I don't know I think it is a bit of stretch.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by casper

The Port Alberni Port Authority has been floating the idea of offloading/loading international containers in their port and then transferring them onto barges to be moved into Vancouver or Seattle.

The argument for doing this is their port is less congested so it reduces pressure and wait times on getting into Vancouver or Seattle. I don't know how viable that is. Given they don't have cargo container handling facilities today. I don't know I think it is a bit of stretch.

You know what idea I like better? Reopening the rail line on Vancouver Island, and doing a connection to the mainland via Campbell River and Squamish.

No trans-shipment required.

[Migrant_Coconut]

How much cargo is potentially moving through Port Alberni to make a second third fourth (whatever number we're on) attempt to revive the E&N worth it?

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

You know what idea I like better? Reopening the rail line on Vancouver Island, and doing a connection to the mainland via Campbell River and Squamish.

No trans-shipment required.

Or just build the terminal in the Metro Vancouver and skip the need for what would be a very expensive rail project.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by madog222

Or just build the terminal in the Metro Vancouver and skip the need for what would be a very expensive rail project.

It might not be for the current batch of projects, just in general we don't have much seafront land that also has rail access on this coast.

At some point, there's likely to be a need to open up some more waterfront for industrial use.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Don't think any shipping company will see the point of offloading in Port Alberni if it's just going to end up in Vancouver anyway - they and their customers would just be spending extra on another middleman.

OTOH if the plan is to make Alberni the Pacific freight port for the whole island, there's a little potential there...

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Don't think any shipping company will see the point of offloading in Port Alberni if it's just going to end up in Vancouver anyway - they and their customers would just be spending extra on another middleman.

OTOH if the plan is to make Alberni the Pacific freight port for the whole island, there's a little potential there...

I was more thinking that it would act as a relief to Vancouver in the long term.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I was more thinking that it would act as a relief to Vancouver in the long term.

Maybe? AFAIK the vast majority of the PoV's freight is either A) coming from the Lower Mainland or the rest of Canada onto the ships, then out west through the Salish Sea into the Pacific, or B) going off the ships, then into the Lower Mainland or out east to the rest of Canada, so IDK what Port Alberni adds to that equation.

I suppose it could work if they partnered with Nanaimo to haul low-priority freight overland between the two docks...

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

It might not be for the current batch of projects, just in general we don't have much seafront land that also has rail access on this coast.

At some point, there's likely to be a need to open up some more waterfront for industrial use.

Roberts Bank Terminal 2 and GCT Berth 4 show that future port expansions are likely to be on reclaimed land near existing facilities. There's also the opportunity to use the Fraser more than we do with additional facitilies on Tilbury / Surrey Docks / Richmond / Annacis Island.

Moving BC Ferries Maintenance centre to the island and repurposing that location as additional port facilities sounds more realistic to me than using Port Alberni as part of the Port of Vancouver.

Replacing the Second Narrows Rail Bridge with a more modern structure (potentially combining it with a new Ironworkers Bridge replacement that also has capacity for transit) would allow for more intense uses up Burrard Inlet, which is also more plausible than a tunnel from the Island.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by mcj

Replacing the Second Narrows Rail Bridge with a more modern structure (potentially combining it with a new Ironworkers Bridge replacement that also has capacity for transit) would allow for more intense uses up Burrard Inlet, which is also more plausible than a tunnel from the Island.

I doubt you'll see a combined rail/road bridge. The road traffic requires a span high enough to provide clearance for the ships passing underneath, but the railway could not handle the kind of grade that would imply. A lift span is a non-starter for the heavy and constant highway traffic, but is adequate for the relatively infrequent trains.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I doubt you'll see a combined rail/road bridge. The road traffic requires a span high enough to provide clearance for the ships passing underneath, but the railway could not handle the kind of grade that would imply. A lift span is a non-starter for the heavy and constant highway traffic, but is adequate for the relatively infrequent trains.

They could do a lower opening span and an upper road deck like the original proposal for Burrard Bridge.
That would take advantage of the same bridge footings.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Unless scope creep forces it to be SkyTrain-compatible, in which case 40+ trains an hour requires them to come up with something else.