PHILADELPHIA-CAMDEN-WILMINGTON-ATLANTIC CITY-READING | Metro Development Thread

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I'm not sure I can think of a development comparable in size that looks as nice as this. Even the CANNO stuff (which undoubtedly has better primary facades) still uses vinyl siding on anything not fronting the street.

I don't like the metal panels between the windows on this one, but to be fair to the designer a common motif in Art Deco is to have darker sections between windows running vertically. It actually kind of works here.

Speaking of, the Art Deco vertical stonework is a really nice touch that gives the project a good bit of depth. Can you point to anything in Philly with this kind of ornamentation?

1001 S. Broad has a beautiful Art Deco grand entrance, but otherwise is rather okay looking. Little things like these are what make or break building aesthetics.

Not sure what you're looking at, but this building isn't great. The front is ok-ish. Most new buildings in Philly look better than this.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I'm not sure I can think of a development comparable in size that looks as nice as this. Even the CANNO stuff (which undoubtedly has better primary facades) still uses vinyl siding on anything not fronting the street.

utterly absurd take.

[mcgrath618]

Agree to disagree. I think I could be convinced that there are a few new builds (of similar scale) in the last 5 years that look better than this, but I would absolutely dispute that most new builds in Philadelphia look better than this. Have you guys walked up Ridge Avenue? Chestnut Street west of 40th? I would welcome this build in either of those locations as an objective improvement to what's there now. I also certainly cannot think of anything U/C at the moment that beats this.

I even stand by what I said about CANNO! I love them and everything they put out! 2401 Frankford is one of my favorite new builds in recent memory, and the Frankford and Trenton Ave-fronting sides may even look better than this, but even that building has an entirely vinyl-clad northern facade.

Ardmore has evidently also adopted the IBC, and this building is absolutely slop underneath the hood, but at the very least I am appreciative that they took the time and effort to add flourish/ornamentation to the street-fronting facades and avoided vinyl siding for the rest of the structure.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Which ones?

Most of the new 5-7 story buildings on/adjacent to Columbus/Delaware Ave.

The 3 new PMC high-rises along the Schuylkill.

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I even stand by what I said about CANNO! I love them and everything they put out! 2401 Frankford is one of my favorite new builds in recent memory, and the Frankford and Trenton Ave-fronting sides may even look better than this, but even that building has an entirely vinyl-clad northern facade.

I understand what you're getting at, even if I still think Philly is still building far more architecturally advanced new builds than any suburb overall.

But even so--if a building looks great for 85% of the facade, details still matter and are noticed. There's no need for the corner-cutting. And in a city where urbanism is essentially it's entire selling point, there needs to be some higher standards.

How much could the developer have possibly saved by using vinyl on the rear of that building? At least a cement fiber material has a much better-looking finish.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

How much could the developer have possibly saved by using vinyl on the rear of that building? At least a cement fiber material has a much better-looking finish.

How do you know it's vinyl? I would assume it is cement fiber board.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

How do you know it's vinyl? I would assume it is cement fiber board.

It's vinyl, and it's very apparent when walking south along Frankford Avenue.

[Jawnadelphia]

Construction/renovation continues at two largely vacant downtown office buildings left by BoA. Incyte is moving in and bringing hundreds of employees with them to the downtown locations (Bracebridge I and III).

Meanwhile, it was finally made official last week that the Delaware Law School (formerly, Widener Law) campus on Concord Pike is for sale, as DE Law School plans to move downtown to Bracebridge II.

Having maybe a thousand or so well paying big pharma jobs and law students/faculty at Rodney Square could really help accelerate downtown Wilmington's renaissance.

https://delawarebusinesstimes.com/news/w...sell-concord-campus-plans-downtown-move/

https://www.delawareonline.com/story/new...x41d--63--b--63--&gca-ft=52&gca-ds=sophi


Incyte - Bracebridge I

Overview of the complex:

https://www.homsey.com/project-mbna.html

[domodeez]

This Wilmington news makes me very happy. The Law School move has been in the works for over a decade and will be a great addition to the ecosystem. The rest will be great as well.

[PHLtoNYC]

Massive development planned for Chester County, out in Avondale area.

Sprawling 622-unit project would help Chester County meet rising housing demand, officials say
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...nt-chester-county-stonewall-capital.html

A developer has closed on its acquisition of an initial tract of land for a sprawling $300 million mixed-use project in Chester County, and local officials say it represents a chance to add much-needed housing to the area.

Baltimore-based Stonewall Capital plans to add 622 residential units, 115,000 square feet of commercial space, a Wawa and office space to over 220 acres in New Garden Township. Stonewall's recent completion of a $15 million purchase of some 187 acres at 9060 Gap Newport Pike brings the vision a step closer to fruition.

The project, called White Clay Point, will be constructed on a swath of land that was previously the site of an industrial facility for mushroom compost, situated about 2 miles from the Delaware border.

The more than 600 residential units planned for the White Clay Point community will be a mix of townhomes, villas, single-family homes and eight estate lots that would be constructed by national homebuilder Lennar. Himes said adding townhomes and smaller single-family homes aligns with the township's vision of increasing affordability and bringing more first-time homebuyers to New Garden Township.

Chester County is the most expensive, and most land-rich county in the Philadelphia area. The median sale price in the 759-square-mile county was $550,000 in December.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Massive development planned for Chester County, out in Avondale area.

Sprawling 622-unit project would help Chester County meet rising housing demand, officials say
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...nt-chester-county-stonewall-capital.html

A developer has closed on its acquisition of an initial tract of land for a sprawling $300 million mixed-use project in Chester County, and local officials say it represents a chance to add much-needed housing to the area.

Baltimore-based Stonewall Capital plans to add 622 residential units, 115,000 square feet of commercial space, a Wawa and office space to over 220 acres in New Garden Township. Stonewall's recent completion of a $15 million purchase of some 187 acres at 9060 Gap Newport Pike brings the vision a step closer to fruition.

The project, called White Clay Point, will be constructed on a swath of land that was previously the site of an industrial facility for mushroom compost, situated about 2 miles from the Delaware border.

The more than 600 residential units planned for the White Clay Point community will be a mix of townhomes, villas, single-family homes and eight estate lots that would be constructed by national homebuilder Lennar. Himes said adding townhomes and smaller single-family homes aligns with the township's vision of increasing affordability and bringing more first-time homebuyers to New Garden Township.

Chester County is the most expensive, and most land-rich county in the Philadelphia area. The median sale price in the 759-square-mile county was $550,000 in December.

I drove the backroads from Newark, Delaware through Kennett Square slash route 1 all the way back into Delaware County recently and there is still some stunningly beautiful untouched countryside in Southern Chester County. Specifically, London Britain, Franklin, New London Townships (west of Avondale). Not everything needs to be plowed over.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I drove the backroads from Newark, Delaware through Kennett Square slash route 1 all the way back into Delaware County recently and there is still some stunningly beautiful untouched countryside in Southern Chester County. Specifically, London Britain, Franklin, New London Townships (west of Avondale). Not everything needs to be plowed over.

Chester County is beautiful (Andrew Wyeth country).

Though the suburban NIMBY mindset is like a catch-22... They complain about replacing crappy malls and car dealerships with housing (absurd), complain about building on open space (I sympathize more) and also complain about how expensive the region is becoming (what did they expect?)... Pick a lane.

I am more of the mindset that we should integrate new housing into the fabric of denser communities and treat development of untouched land as a less common approach for larger scale communities. For example, the Franklin Mint site was a fail and the massive State Farm building at 202 & Route 1 is empty.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I am more of the mindset that we should integrate new housing into the fabric of denser communities and treat development of untouched land as a less common approach for larger scale communities. For example, the Franklin Mint site was a fail and the massive State Farm building at 202 & Route 1 is empty.

This is happening increasingly. Lots of new development in and immediately adjacent to Kennett Square Boro that is walkable to downtown Kennett Square. To be frank, this "progress" is made possible by the success of places like West Chester and Phoenixville (less so than Philadelphia). A generation ago, before the renaissance of the two former boros, people would have responded to dense proposals in a place like Kennett Square by claiming it was too "urban" etc etc using all the coded language that is sometimes associated with "cities". But now, with West Chester's success, I think the attitude is, "well I wanna be like West Chester".

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

This is happening increasingly. Lots of new development in and immediately adjacent to Kennett Square Boro that is walkable to downtown Kennett Square. To be frank, this "progress" is made possible by the success of places like West Chester and Phoenixville (less so than Philadelphia). A generation ago, before the renaissance of the two former boros, people would have responded to dense proposals in a place like Kennett Square by claiming it was too "urban" etc etc using all the coded language that is sometimes associated with "cities". But now, with West Chester's success, I think the attitude is, "well I wanna be like West Chester".

It's almost like the way that towns grew organically prior to suburbanization was much more desirable (and sustainable!).

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Agree to disagree. I think I could be convinced that there are a few new builds (of similar scale) in the last 5 years that look better than this, but I would absolutely dispute that most new builds in Philadelphia look better than this. Have you guys walked up Ridge Avenue? Chestnut Street west of 40th? I would welcome this build in either of those locations as an objective improvement to what's there now. I also certainly cannot think of anything U/C at the moment that beats this.

I even stand by what I said about CANNO! I love them and everything they put out! 2401 Frankford is one of my favorite new builds in recent memory, and the Frankford and Trenton Ave-fronting sides may even look better than this, but even that building has an entirely vinyl-clad northern facade.

Ardmore has evidently also adopted the IBC, and this building is absolutely slop underneath the hood, but at the very least I am appreciative that they took the time and effort to add flourish/ornamentation to the street-fronting facades and avoided vinyl siding for the rest of the structure.

We don't talk about that stretch of Chestnut... but wasn't that more than five years ago? Where on Ridge do you mean?

I'm certainly not saying that everything that goes up in the city is great or even acceptable, but there has definitely been a move toward better design and materials recently. Yeah, that vinyl is weird, but developers are going to do stupid 🞵🞵🞵🞵 to shave pennies, and it's kind of hidden. Still a good building.

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Most of the new 5-7 story buildings on/adjacent to Columbus/Delaware Ave.

The 3 new PMC high-rises along the Schuylkill.

That's too bad. Most people don't seem especially bothered by it, but I'd break a lease if I could regularly hear my neighbors.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Justin7

We don't talk about that stretch of Chestnut... but wasn't that more than five years ago? Where on Ridge do you mean?

I'm certainly not saying that everything that goes up in the city is great or even acceptable, but there has definitely been a move toward better design and materials recently. Yeah, that vinyl is weird, but developers are going to do stupid 🞵🞵🞵🞵 to shave pennies, and it's kind of hidden. Still a good building.

Most of that stretch of Chestnut was built in the last 5 years, including perhaps the worst-looking building in the City (4511 Chestnut Street).

Re: Frankford Circle, I agree that it's a good building, it just irks me that developers pull this penny-pinching 🞵🞵🞵🞵 on what would otherwise be a perfect structure. To the point someone made earlier, using literally any other material (prefab stucco or concrete panels, etc) than vinyl would've been an improvement.

Pre-IBC, buildings like this used poor-quality bricks on rear or party walls. This was fine, as 1) Party walls aren't seen at all, and 2) Rear walls, even when visible like this one, looked fine even with poor-quality bricks. One need only look at pre-IBC builds in Chicago (a city which adopted the IBC only in the last 5 years) to see how this evolved over time. New builds in Chicago often used the cheapest bricks possible (usually cinder blocks) for the non-street-fronting facade.

Here's the thing: this still means that these buildings are of higher build quality than what is built in Philadelphia today, and they are also by and large better looking to boot. Here's a selection of pre-IBC newer builds in Chicago that I see whenever I'm there:

623 Wellington

1246 Melrose and Neighbors

4014 Ellis Avenue

Even 1775 Clybourn, a building whose aesthetics I don't enjoy, is completely built of structural masonry. This building will be there long after the CANNO building on Frankford has been demolished.

These buildings are representative of a city that understands (or at least understood until very recently) what makes living there worthwhile. If we continue to build this 🞵🞵🞵🞵 everywhere in Philadelphia, we will very quickly no longer have a city worth living in.

At the end of the day, that's the thing: these buildings I've linked are going to be there for a long time, likely over 100 years. I have no guarantee that the CANNO stuff on Frankford isn't going to be demolished before or around 2055 and replaced with something worse.

[Justin7]

Those Melrose and Ellis St homes look great, yeah, but what do they cost? I don't know Chicago but those don't seem comparable to anything we're discussing. Still I wouldn't be surprised if they were stick framed. Do you have construction photos?

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Even 1775 Clybourn, a building whose aesthetics I don't enjoy, is completely built of structural masonry. This building will be there long after the CANNO building on Frankford has been demolished.

What do you mean by structural masonry? Those looks like ill-fit facade panels. I'd be shocked to see anyone in the US using load bearing brick.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Those Melrose and Ellis St homes look great, yeah, but what do they cost? I don't know Chicago but those don't seem comparable to anything we're discussing. Still I wouldn't be surprised if they were stick framed. Do you have construction photos?

Oh, easily much more than in Philadelphia. No doubt. This doesn't mean that higher-quality infill in Philadelphia isn't possible. All I want to see here is the option; there's no doubt in my mind that at least a few projects would pivot to masonry.

What do you mean by structural masonry? Those looks like ill-fit facade panels. I'd be shocked to see anyone in the US using load bearing brick.

You are absolutely right! The Clybourn project is facade panels; I don't know what's underneath. It's one I found while browsing Google Maps trying to find the other locations. Bad example on my part.

However, the building's neighbor has a 3-story masonry addition, which can be seen from the rear in this link.

Chicago adopted the IBC post-COVID, which means that until about two years ago there were indeed still projects being built with structural masonry. New York City just adopted it, and even altered it to continue to provide for load-bearing masonry.

To answer your other question, I do not have construction photos. However, like I said before, most of these buildings used cinder blocks for their non-street-fronting facades, which they would have no reason to do if it wasn't true structural masonry. They'd just use vinyl, as they do here (and as they're beginning to do there).

Why would you be shocked to see anyone in the US using load bearing brick, considering that most structures in Philadelphia are of that construction? If the answer is expense, the reason Chicago held out against timber-frame for so long was certain historical events that leveled the city in the 19th Century.

[mcgrath618]

As a followup, here's a house being built new in 2016 using load-bearing masonry.

And another.

And a third, of some size.

[PHLtoNYC]

The Main Line has entered a new era of expensiveness.
29 homes (3700-4500sf) on 1/5 acre lots starting at $2.8M. Averages $650-$800/sf, and I'm sure they will sell-out quickly.
Rockwell builds nice product though.

Main Line estate of late Campbell Soup heiress set to become luxury housing after sale
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...pbell-soup-dorrance-hamilton-radnor.html

Rockwell Development Group has finalized its purchase of a portion of late Campbell Soup heiress Dorrance "Dodo" Hill Hamilton's Main Line estate with plans to build more than two dozen multimillion-dollar homes on the site.

The $4.96 million deal for a 3.5-acre section of the estate closed last week, according to a deed filed in Delaware County. The seller was a trust associated with the Hamilton family.

Hamilton's nearly 8-acre estate at 204 Strafford Ave. in Radnor was subdivided. Rockwell has the balance of the property under agreement and plans to close on the remaining parcels in the coming months. The existing nearly 7,000-square-foot residence and several greenhouses and outbuildings will be razed for the project.

The estate, just steps from downtown Wayne, is expected to be developed into 29 homes with unique neo-traditional designs on roughly 7,500-square-foot lots across the full property.

Plans for the community, called Strafford Walk, call for site work to begin in the summer, with construction of the homes starting by the end of the year and the first completions scheduled for 2027. The homes are expected to start at $2.8 million, according to Greg Lingo, president of Media-based Rockwell.

"As hard to believe as that is, it's a value for the Main Line — to be able to be into a new home community for under $3 million," Lingo said.