Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[elly63]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

I would not really call sky boxes "major renovations. Ditto for expanding the stadium nearly 40 years ago. Judging by your posting history, you have a fondness for McMahon Stadium, but it is, by far, the worst CFL venue in Canada, and it's way past it's shelf life.

Ideally they should have replaced it 15 years ago, and razed it to the ground long ago, like they did with some of the seedy hotels in Motel Village across the Crowchild.

My posting history is honest, I try to look at the good and the bad. I agree it should have been replaced long ago and I favour building anew over renovation.

But your statement about no renovations wasn't true and you have provided no proof why it is by far the worst with just a blanket statement. Aside from the view, Molson is no Mosaic.

My fear is threefold: Our country has seemingly stagnated so far that we lack the will to do anything like a new stadium. I say that with full knowledge of what is happening in Montreal and Ottawa. Also it has almost become too costly to justify and three, the profile of the big events that we could realistically bid on have seemingly fallen so far that there may be no interest. Perhaps, McMahon will just have to crumble before anything is done

Even though I don't like it, a renovation may be the best that is possible, hence my posting that way a few times.

And this just came into my head, the university alumni? in Calgary is looking at building a new stadium that will cost 45 million. To me, like the situation in Halifax, it takes away dollars from a big stadium project. Perhaps some of that 45 million might have went toward McMahon

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by elly63

My fear is threefold: Our country has seemingly stagnated so far that we lack the will to do anything like a new stadium.

I have no idea why you are bringing CPC (Poilievre-style) talking points that are misinformation at best, into the conversation. Canada has not stagnated, no matter how much bad faith actors want us to believe so.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

I have no idea why you are bringing CPC (Poilievre-style) talking points that are misinformation at best, into the conversation. Canada has not stagnated, no matter how much bad faith actors want us to believe so.

Why are you bringing partisan politics into this? Blame who you want for:

Key Indicators of Stagnation:

GDP Per Capita Decline: Canada's GDP per person has fallen, with some reports calling it the worst performance among OECD countries, indicating a decrease in average living standards.

Productivity Woes: Productivity growth has stalled, meaning the average worker has less capital (machinery, equipment) to work with, reducing output and efficiency.

Weak Business Investment: A significant factor is the collapse in private business investment, with companies investing much less in Canada compared to the U.S..

Stagnant Real Wages: While overall GDP grows, real wages for younger Canadians have barely increased in decades, failing to keep pace with soaring costs, especially housing.

Housing Affordability Crisis: Soaring housing prices, coupled with stagnant incomes, have created immense financial pressure and despair, especially for younger generations

[BlackDog204]

Can we please stick to the topic? Post this in the politics section if you want to complain about how crappy you think our country is.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Can we please stick to the topic? Post this in the politics section if you want to complain about how crappy you think our country is.

You made it political, I was saying some reasons why I think it will be difficult to build a new large scale (20-30k) stadium. What I said also doesn't have to be permanent either so stop the shit disturbing and keep your party politics to yourself.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by elly63

You made it political, I was saying some reasons why I think it will be difficult to build a new large scale (20-30k) stadium. What I said also doesn't have to be permanent either so stop the shit disturbing and keep your party politics to yourself.

Stop going on about politics, and stop gaslighting, Boomer.

Now back on to stadiums & arenas.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Stop going on about politics, and stop gaslighting, Boomer. Now back on to stadiums & arenas.

Can't stop your shit disturbing, trying to get suspended again? Boomer? 2019 called, they want their catchphrase back.

[EpicPonyTime]

I think the far bigger contributor to the country’s poor prospects for new stadiums is simply that we have no justification to build them. The CFL is simply not sufficient reason for a city like Calgary to spend $500+ million on a stadium and the CPL will never require large scale stadiums. We have no issue building arenas, conversely, because they’re more likely to be used.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I think the far bigger contributor to the country’s poor prospects for new stadiums is simply that we have no justification to build them. The CFL is simply not sufficient reason for a city like Calgary to spend $500+ million on a stadium and the CPL will never require large scale stadiums. We have no issue building arenas, conversely, because they’re more likely to be used.

That's a good reason right there but it's not like the CFL would be a lone tenant. There would be both male and female pro soccer teams, college teams, shows and public use (unless the Dino stadium is built) Like we are seeing in Halifax there is a gap between the needs of the CPL and CFL. Ottawa and Hamilton are making it work somewhat but they are not ideal for soccer, too big, artificial turf.

Aside from the cost, I think a case could be made for a 25-30k domed stadium. We need another all season year round facility. Problem is it will cost. I think a design could be had that mimics retractable without the cost or being retractable.

I am not sure how far the will will extend from the high cost of a stadium and the high cost of a stadium with a roof. Maybe if the will is there to build a new stadium a roof could be part of it. Perhaps something along the line of a downsized US Bank Stadium.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by elly63

That's a good reason right there but it's not like the CFL would be a lone tenant. There would be both male and female pro soccer teams, college teams, shows and public use (unless the Dino stadium is built) Like we are seeing in Halifax there is a gap between the needs of the CPL and CFL. Ottawa and Hamilton are making it work somewhat but they are not ideal for soccer, too big, artificial turf.

Aside from the cost, I think a case could be made for a 25-30k domed stadium. We need another all season year round facility. Problem is it will cost. I think a design could be had that mimics retractable without the cost or being retractable.

I am not sure how far the will will extend from the high cost of a stadium and the high cost of a stadium with a roof. Maybe if the will is there to build a new stadium a roof could be part of it. Perhaps something along the line of a downsized US Bank Stadium.

All the alternative tenants you raised could be more than adequately served by the Dinos proposal instead of a new McMahon, though. That’s the issue. Outside of something like the Olympics, the CFL and occasional concerts are the only uses for large stadia in the country. I’d like to think those are worth the cost but Calgary could put that money to much better use at the moment.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

All the alternative tenants you raised could be more than adequately served by the Dinos proposal instead of a new McMahon, though. That’s the issue. Outside of something like the Olympics, the CFL and occasional concerts are the only uses for large stadia in the country. I’d like to think those are worth the cost but Calgary could put that money to much better use at the moment.

No, I agree. I was making the case against myself by mentioning the Dinos proposal.

Realistically, I can see two ways forward. The much less likely is a small dome (25-30k) that would be able to cater to the types of tenants like BC Place gets or do a refurbishment in stages like Ottawa is doing and what they did in England for decades. Rebuild one side and when you have raised enough funds tear down the old and rebuild the other.

But as you say, money can be put to better use, although I think we can always say that when large projects like libraries, concert halls or stadiums are concerned.

[Hackslack]

I don’t see any public money going towards a new stadium for the stamps, considering they are owned by the same corporation as the Flames which had received a sweetheart deal from the government to build a new arena.

They need to do a reno… new seats with more room thus reducing attendance but improving atmosphere, and increase concourse size. It’s bloody hectic to get to and from the washroom currently.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

I don’t see any public money going towards a new stadium for the stamps, considering they are owned by the same corporation as the Flames which had received a sweetheart deal from the government to build a new arena.

They need to do a reno… new seats with more room thus reducing attendance but improving atmosphere, and increase concourse size. It’s bloody hectic to get to and from the washroom currently.

A decade ago a minor renovation for the Olympics was tagged at ~$80 million. More washrooms, concessions, and a cut out to see the field from the concourse. Not sure what could be done about the seats without a more extensive reno as they're limited by the original concrete stands.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

A decade ago a minor renovation for the Olympics was tagged at ~$80 million. More washrooms, concessions, and a cut out to see the field from the concourse. Not sure what could be done about the seats without a more extensive reno as they're limited by the original concrete stands.

Ya I don’t know what they could do to accommodate more room for seating. Wider seats would help. Put seats in where there are currently benches, maybe… not sure.

I’d imagine that the cut out to see the field from the concourse was a majority portion of that ~$80M. That’s not something that is needed. More washrooms with a wider concourse is the main thing.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Stop going on about politics, and stop gaslighting, Boomer.

Now back on to stadiums & arenas.

Yeah seriously. It’s asinine to suggest Canada won’t build anymore major stadiums because of economic decline.

I think it’s pathetic that Toronto doesn’t have a proper world class stadium to host their World Cup matches.

If Canada ever wants to really be good at soccer, we need to get over the “our stadiums are too big for soccer” logic and get them filled with spectators on a regular basis.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Yeah seriously. It’s asinine to suggest Canada won’t build anymore major stadiums because of economic decline.

I think it’s pathetic that Toronto doesn’t have a proper world class stadium to host their World Cup matches.

If Canada ever wants to really be good at soccer, we need to get over the “our stadiums are too big for soccer” logic and get them filled with spectators on a regular basis.

It would be great to see Vancouver build a soccer-specific stadium in the coming year. If there is one place soccer can be huge, it's Vancouver, with it's relatively mild climate.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

It would be great to see Vancouver build a soccer-specific stadium in the coming year. If there is one place soccer can be huge, it's Vancouver, with it's relatively mild climate.

Soccer definitely should be bigger as a major spectator sport in Vancouver, but as popular as the Whitecaps Football Club are, they will always be limited by the reputation of the MLS. So I'm not sure why moving into a smaller stadium helps “grow the game”... or grow the grass… yeah, BC place has a roof, but if there's a single stadium in Canada where it should be easy to maintain natural grass, it's a stadium in Vancouver!

I think investing in medium or large soccer-specific stadium is kind of excessive for a city/region like Vancouver, when they already have one of the biggest soccer/football stadiums in Canada by capacity, and because of how expensive/ scarce land is in the GVA. The housing component is supposed to be the big selling point of this new "soccer specific stadium"... but imagine how much more housing could be built instead if there was no soccer stadium being built.

I think they should just try to come to a better agreement with the provincial crown corp that owns BC Place on concessions and other grievances, instead of building an entirely new stadium.

Imo, Vancouver, should be looking at building an MLB ready ballpark, not a new soccer specific stadium.Vancouver has more real estate investor cash than Montreal, and Vancouver is probably seen as the most desirable city in Canada for an MLB expansion franchise or relocation at this point (provided a commitment to build a ballpark).

I just don't get what's the point of making a Soccer Specific Stadium in the Vancouver area for the Whitecaps Football Club, when BC Place is already a stadium up to FIFA's very high standards. Vancouver already has an MLS team, and it's not like they're going to lose that team if they continuing playing out of BC Place... no matter what the "poor owners" try and claim.

A bigger priority for Canada’s MLS teams should be a long term strategy to leave the MLS and join the Canadian Premier League or another domestic league where they’d be the big 3 of Canadian soccer. If Canada really wants to be a serious soccer or “footballing” nation one day, we need our biggest clubs to ditch the MLS and embrace a Canadian league. They could still compete for the North American version of Champion’s league, and still keep their payrolls large, or even larger!

Vancouver's only really prestigious sports team remains the Canucks. The MLS is certainly a more prestigious league post Messi, sure, but it's still very much considered a mid tier league or retirement league in the world of football.

I see no reason why Vancouver couldn't add an MLB team to the mix if they built a proper ballpark to bag a relocation or expansion franchise. Same with the NBA, Vancouver needs to get an NBA team back... and that really should be a much simpler ordeal, considering they could share a facility with the Canucks. Vegas is often talked about as the next city for NBA relocation, but I think Vancouver is a far stronger market for a team, and the league is unlikely to only expand the league by one team in Vegas and stop there.

Ideally, we'll see 4 new NBA expansion teams in Vegas, Seattle, Vancouver, and Montreal. However, both the New Orleans Pelicans and the Memphis Grizzlies franchises are said to be ripe for relocation... and it would be quite epic to see Vancouver get the Grizzlies back specifically.

Also, Montreal getting the Pelican's franchise (and Vancouver getting back the Grizzlies) would make for easy realignment between the East and West with 16 teams in each conference including two expansion franchises in Vegas and Seattle.

[WhipperSnapper]

If anything, economic doldrums promotes white elephants to be built like stadiums for political brownie points. Calgary could definitely use a new stadium but, that alone doesn't make it a worthwhile cause. The tenant valuations require almost 100% public input and the exorbitant costs is significant to any city budget.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Soccer definitely should be bigger as a major spectator sport in Vancouver, but as popular as the Whitecaps Football Club are, they will always be limited by the reputation of the MLS. So I'm not sure why moving into a smaller stadium helps “grow the game”... or grow the grass… yeah, BC place has a roof, but if there's a single stadium in Canada where it should be easy to maintain natural grass, it's a stadium in Vancouver!

I think investing in medium or large soccer-specific stadium is kind of excessive for a city/region like Vancouver, when they already have one of the biggest soccer/football stadiums in Canada by capacity, and because of how expensive/ scarce land is in the GVA. The housing component is supposed to be the big selling point of this new "soccer specific stadium"... but imagine how much more housing could be built instead if there was no soccer stadium being built.

I think they should just try to come to a better agreement with the provincial crown corp that owns BC Place on concessions and other grievances, instead of building an entirely new stadium.

Imo, Vancouver, should be looking at building an MLB ready ballpark, not a new soccer specific stadium.Vancouver has more real estate investor cash than Montreal, and Vancouver is probably seen as the most desirable city in Canada for an MLB expansion franchise or relocation at this point (provided a commitment to build a ballpark).

I just don't get what's the point of making a Soccer Specific Stadium in the Vancouver area for the Whitecaps Football Club, when BC Place is already a stadium up to FIFA's very high standards. Vancouver already has an MLS team, and it's not like they're going to lose that team if they continuing playing out of BC Place... no matter what the "poor owners" try and claim.

A bigger priority for Canada’s MLS teams should be a long term strategy to leave the MLS and join the Canadian Premier League or another domestic league where they’d be the big 3 of Canadian soccer. If Canada really wants to be a serious soccer or “footballing” nation one day, we need our biggest clubs to ditch the MLS and embrace a Canadian league. They could still compete for the North American version of Champion’s league, and still keep their payrolls large, or even larger!

Vancouver's only really prestigious sports team remains the Canucks. The MLS is certainly a more prestigious league post Messi, sure, but it's still very much considered a mid tier league or retirement league in the world of football.

I see no reason why Vancouver couldn't add an MLB team to the mix if they built a proper ballpark to bag a relocation or expansion franchise. Same with the NBA, Vancouver needs to get an NBA team back... and that really should be a much simpler ordeal, considering they could share a facility with the Canucks. Vegas is often talked about as the next city for NBA relocation, but I think Vancouver is a far stronger market for a team, and the league is unlikely to only expand the league by one team in Vegas and stop there.

Ideally, we'll see 4 new NBA expansion teams in Vegas, Seattle, Vancouver, and Montreal. However, both the New Orleans Pelicans and the Memphis Grizzlies franchises are said to be ripe for relocation... and it would be quite epic to see Vancouver get the Grizzlies back specifically.

Also, Montreal getting the Pelican's franchise (and Vancouver getting back the Grizzlies) would make for easy realignment between the East and West with 16 teams in each conference including two expansion franchises in Vegas and Seattle.

An NBA will be at least $6 billion and an MLB will be at least $3.5 billion. That's a humongous conclusion against your post.

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

An NBA will be at least $6 billion and an MLB will be at least $3.5 billion. That's a humongous conclusion against your post.

I personally view the NBA as the more viable sports expansion option in Canada. The teams are worth a lot more and require that up-front investment (median valuation is approx $5B USD) which limits who can buy in, but Canada already has the facilities required in cities that could support a basketball team. Centre Bell and Rogers Arena are pretty much ready to go, and it can also be argued that Calgary with the new Scotia Place will also be a very attractive option within a decade. Implementation of an NBA team in these arenas would be virtually seamless, especially if concentrated within the current NHL ownership groups.

The MLB, however, offers an easier path to potential ownership (median valuation is approx $2B USD) but a baseball team requires a large, single purpose facility that cities outside of Toronto don't have and will likely continue to have difficulty building unless everything aligns perfectly.