Halifax Traffic

[Reesor]

I think the biggest issue with traffic is that there's rarely a start-to-finish solution for any of the major corridors that have traffic. You can put all the bus lanes on Windmill Road and Barrington Street that you want, but if the MacKay Bridge/Windsor St Exchange is backed up, busses sit in traffic. The Bayers Road/Young St/Robie St corridor has lots of bus lanes. But if busses are backed up coming off the highway or waiting for 3 red lights at Robie/Young, there are still major delays. Express busses from Sackville to downtown have lots of priority signals and bus lanes. But remain stuck in traffic at key points along their route.

What's been done so far are the easiest, cheapest solutions. The remaining pieces to the start-to-finish solutions are expensive. There's land to be bought, overpasses to be widened/re-done, a 10-figure new MacKay bridge to be built. These projects would allow for that start-to-finish solution in many cases, but take considerable time and money. I think that's why the city isn't in a rush to implement a bus rapid transit solution yet. What's the sense in having more frequent busses if those busses are sitting on the MacKay bridge or in Bayers Road traffic out of service just to get to the start of their route? What's the point of having busses every 5 minutes on core routes when all those busses will end up sitting in traffic during a huge chunk of their routes?

The paradox is that these small, subtle changes have taken so long to implement that the city's population is out-pacing the improvements. The 107 Extension is a game changer. Everything else feels like treading water.

This by no means is meant to discourage the city from making small, subtle improvements. Put the transit priority signal on Wyse Road turning left onto the bridge. You have a beautiful transit terminal housing 10+ bus routes that go over the bridge during rush hour, but have busses sitting at a light. There are countless other examples. The bus lanes and priority signals that are in place are much better than not having them. But you don't need a 6-figure independent study to see where the problems lie. Same problems as there was 30 years ago: key choke points that would take trunks of money and land to fix.

[dreamcamera]

Originally Posted by Reesor

I think the biggest issue with traffic is that there's rarely a start-to-finish solution for any of the major corridors that have traffic. You can put all the bus lanes on Windmill Road and Barrington Street that you want, but if the MacKay Bridge/Windsor St Exchange is backed up, busses sit in traffic. The Bayers Road/Young St/Robie St corridor has lots of bus lanes. But if busses are backed up coming off the highway or waiting for 3 red lights at Robie/Young, there are still major delays. Express busses from Sackville to downtown have lots of priority signals and bus lanes. But remain stuck in traffic at key points along their route.

What's been done so far are the easiest, cheapest solutions. The remaining pieces to the start-to-finish solutions are expensive. There's land to be bought, overpasses to be widened/re-done, a 10-figure new MacKay bridge to be built. These projects would allow for that start-to-finish solution in many cases, but take considerable time and money. I think that's why the city isn't in a rush to implement a bus rapid transit solution yet. What's the sense in having more frequent busses if those busses are sitting on the MacKay bridge or in Bayers Road traffic out of service just to get to the start of their route? What's the point of having busses every 5 minutes on core routes when all those busses will end up sitting in traffic during a huge chunk of their routes?

The paradox is that these small, subtle changes have taken so long to implement that the city's population is out-pacing the improvements. The 107 Extension is a game changer. Everything else feels like treading water.

This by no means is meant to discourage the city from making small, subtle improvements. Put the transit priority signal on Wyse Road turning left onto the bridge. You have a beautiful transit terminal housing 10+ bus routes that go over the bridge during rush hour, but have busses sitting at a light. There are countless other examples. The bus lanes and priority signals that are in place are much better than not having them. But you don't need a 6-figure independent study to see where the problems lie. Same problems as there was 30 years ago: key choke points that would take trunks of money and land to fix.

I tend to agree with your points Reesor (hello from the Mooseheads forum).

I have no real knowledge of what will happen, but I've worked on supply side with planning/traffic departments in both NSTIR and HRM for the last 10 years, and you get impressions of priorities.

ALREADY happening/will need to happen in the next 10 years:

MacKay Bridge Big Lift (no idea, earliest completion probably 2030)
Windsor Street Exchange Project (2029 finish)
Mill Cove Ferry (probably 2027 finish)
Highway 102 Exit Redesigns (interchanges at Hammonds Plains Rd, Hwy 101, Kearney Lake Road) (2027 finish)
Highway 102 20km Enhancements - either more interchange work or addition of carpool lane) (2027-2028 finish)

SHOULD happen to address traffic:

New bridge or tunnel as third crossing*
Increased highway ring-road capacity
Bus rapid transit within HRM, light rail moving people outside HRM

*Absolutely required but has so many challenges, from placement to style to land access. Logically should be end of Hwy 111 to South End Halifax, but what about Seaport and how does traffic move outside the peninsula from there?

Downtown on a peninsula also means future high-capacity venues (new indoor arena or larger stadium aside from Wanderers) need to go elsewhere, there's just no room.

[OldDartmouthMark]

^ Good post.

[Reesor]

Originally Posted by dreamcamera

I tend to agree with your points Reesor (hello from the Mooseheads forum).

I have no real knowledge of what will happen, but I've worked on supply side with planning/traffic departments in both NSTIR and HRM for the last 10 years, and you get impressions of priorities.

ALREADY happening/will need to happen in the next 10 years:

MacKay Bridge Big Lift (no idea, earliest completion probably 2030)
Windsor Street Exchange Project (2029 finish)
Mill Cove Ferry (probably 2027 finish)
Highway 102 Exit Redesigns (interchanges at Hammonds Plains Rd, Hwy 101, Kearney Lake Road) (2027 finish)
Highway 102 20km Enhancements - either more interchange work or addition of carpool lane) (2027-2028 finish)

SHOULD happen to address traffic:

New bridge or tunnel as third crossing*
Increased highway ring-road capacity
Bus rapid transit within HRM, light rail moving people outside HRM

*Absolutely required but has so many challenges, from placement to style to land access. Logically should be end of Hwy 111 to South End Halifax, but what about Seaport and how does traffic move outside the peninsula from there?

Downtown on a peninsula also means future high-capacity venues (new indoor arena or larger stadium aside from Wanderers) need to go elsewhere, there's just no room.

I've heard any implementation of a fast ferry service from Mill Cove is pushed back until at least 2030, and there's a decent chance it is scrapped entirely. In my opinion, it is too pricey for the small niche of people it would help. For that price tag, you could buy land, build wider main arteries, and build an excellent Bus Rapid Transit system across multiple corridors helping a large chunk of Haligonians.

I'm picturing a standard use case for if I was to use the fast ferry from Mill Cove. Say I live near Brookline Plaza in West Bedford and worked in the Dockyard. I'd have to bus it to the Mill Cove ferry, take the ferry, then bus it from downtown to the dockyard. Or I can take the 194 straight down the highway, past the traffic at Bayers Road/Young St, and walk from Northwood Manor. Less transfers, less cost and likely less travel time. If I worked downtown, nothing changes. 194 straight to downtown. Seems like a no-brainer considering the cost to implement the ferry vs making the bus lane network from start to finish along that corridor. In the future, the express busses will likely avoid the 2-lane portions of Young St and Gottingen.

The only way a fast ferry could be worth it in my opinion, is it there was a reason for tourists, cruise ship traffic etc to go to Bedford from downtown, and the ferry was also considered an investment to promote the city and gain tourists. Put a shopping district near Mill Cove with a micro-brewery, shops, cafes etc. Have a performance venue or something. Make people want to spend the money to take the ferry in the other direction.

The 3rd crossing will never happen, again in my opinion. Too expensive compared to other options to improve traffic for all corridors. Even with contributions from Federal and Provincial governments, a 3rd crossing will cost north of 1.5 billion considering the land purchases, approaches etc. Could make the best bus network for a city of this size in North America for that cost.

LRT outside the HRM proper (Halifax/Darthmouth/Bedford/Sackville probably doesn't happen either. Too costly for the population it is transporting. Could have local bus services in Fall River, the Lantz/Elmsdale/Enfield area, Windsor etc, then use an express bus from local park and rides straight to downtown with limited stops at other terminals along the way. Far cheaper and less reliant on dealing with CN for rail lines. Again, make the existing corridors accessible with bus lanes from start to finish, and you open the door for lots of options. Kitchener/Waterloo is a big grid with rail lines through the middle of it perfect for LRT. Halifax has blobs of population scattered in anything but a grid with a big harbour in the middle. I think we have to play the cards we're dealt.

[someone123]

There's so much debate but the city's BRT plan was quite good and the feds kicked in money while the province blocked it. The province should fund BRT, and HRM should build dedicate BRT routes with their own lanes, signal priority, and mechanisms such as overpasses for bypassing bottlenecks to get on and off the peninsula. In the long run, one or two BRT lines could become LRT or streetcar. Land use should be matched to the BRT/LRT stations, and the bus system as a whole should shift from "milk run" to high frequency corridors and transfers.

Ferries are fine but they're niche solutions for parts of the wider transit system and the need is such that one project like that isn't enough for transit development in the city.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Reesor

I've heard any implementation of a fast ferry service from Mill Cove is pushed back until at least 2030, and there's a decent chance it is scrapped entirely.

The 2030 delay, due to land-acquisition issues, was announced in spring. Where does this about it being scrapped come from?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Scrapped? Sounds like Halifax.

Whether people like the idea or not, we live on a fricken harbour. Why not use it? Even if it’s scaled down (scrap the electric ferry idea. Even use a ferry that can dock at the existing DT terminal without modifications). You can still add bus lanes but IMHO it’s shortsighted to not add capacity using the harbour resource when it’s right there in front of you.

I am hoping that this is just some kind of baseless social media rumour/misinformation…

[Reesor]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The 2030 delay, due to land-acquisition issues, was announced in spring. Where does this about it being scrapped come from?

Sorry, the 2030 delay is official. The "scrapped entirely" is just hearsay in my circle. I don't want to blur the line between fact and fiction. My apologies.

A 315 million dollar ferry that helps (and helps is subjective) Bedford West while not doing anything for another major artery is just a waste of funds, again in my opinion. The amount of cars it would keep off the peninsula is tiny compared to the same money being spent on a proper BRT network across all major arteries. Proper as in dedicated bus lanes from start to finish, proper bus lanes to and from transit facilities so out-of-service busses aren't stuck in traffic, and proper 5 minute or less bus intervals to eliminate schedules on major routes. I don't even get why a ferry was pitched before proper BRT. Maybe because land acquisition for terminals was easier than having to figure out proper bus lanes throughout the peninsula, Portland St etc.

I think a fast ferry would be neat. Neat doesn't begin to solve traffic for the city, where proper BRT makes everyone's lives better, whether they use it or not.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Reesor

I think a fast ferry would be neat. Neat doesn't begin to solve traffic for the city, where proper BRT makes everyone's lives better, whether they use it or not.

Pretty much agree. Presuming it stays on track, I think it’ll be useful, and probably will feel cool and modern. But in terms of bang for buck it is very far from the first priority, so it’s unfortunate the province appears to have prioritized spending on it over BRT.

[OldDartmouthMark]

You guys are probably tiring of my two cents, but why are we pitching this as an either/or proposition? We should do both, plus include a plan for LRT.

Extra capacity is just that, and unless something goes horribly wrong, BRT and ferries will never cross paths, so they each can always independently add capacity. I can’t help but wonder why we continually think small in this city, like we could never pull off big projects like we did in the early 20th century ever again. And yet we like to think that technology has made us so much more productive…

We want bike lanes, right? Well think how many more cyclists a ferry could bring into the downtown to utilize (and help justify) the network. I’m sure the Bedford Highway with its nightmare painted bike lanes would be happily bypassed by suburban cyclists from all over the Bedford area. I for one would never be comfortable strapping my prized bike onto the front of a bus. Just a thought.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

You guys are probably tiring of my two cents, but why are we pitching this as an either/or proposition? We should do both, plus include a plan for LRT.

Extra capacity is just that, and unless something goes horribly wrong, BRT and ferries will never cross paths, so they each can always independently add capacity. I can’t help but wonder why we continually think small in this city, like we could never pull off big projects like we did in the early 20th century ever again. And yet we like to think that technology has made us so much more productive…

We want bike lanes, right? Well think how many more cyclists a ferry could bring into the downtown to utilize (and help justify) the network. I’m sure the Bedford Highway with its nightmare painted bike lanes would be happily bypassed by suburban cyclists from all over the Bedford area. I for one would never be comfortable strapping my prized bike onto the front of a bus. Just a thought.

I actually do think we ought to both—just seems odd that the cheaper and more impactful BRT system is the part of the rapid transit strategy left hanging while this goes forward.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

You guys are probably tiring of my two cents, but why are we pitching this as an either/or proposition? We should do both, plus include a plan for LRT.

If you look at the economic statistics, it is apparent that the problem is due to a lack of investment, not a lack of resources. There's some Statistics Canada data posted in the Canada section which shows in 2022 Halifax had an economy over $30B which was about 60% of all of NS. I wouldn't be surprised if it's over 60% of the tax base in NS. In other words, the $300M or so ferry investment only works out to about 1% of the economic output of the region for one year. 1% of GDP should not be presented as "betting the farm" or a project that should starve all other transit projects for years.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I actually do think we ought to both—just seems odd that the cheaper and more impactful BRT system is the part of the rapid transit strategy left hanging while this goes forward.

I always thought that this was due to the ferry ROW being pre-built by nature. Get some boats and build terminals and you’re done, right? Certainly they will be sure to have a clear path to acquiring the necessary land before they finalize the plan… it would be incompetent to frigg that up. Oh… yeah… *cough cough*

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

If you look at the economic statistics, it is apparent that the problem is due to a lack of investment, not a lack of resources. There's some Statistics Canada data posted in the Canada section which shows in 2022 Halifax had an economy over $30B which was about 60% of all of NS. I wouldn't be surprised if it's over 60% of the tax base in NS. In other words, the $300M or so ferry investment only works out to about 1% of the economic output of the region for one year. 1% of GDP should not be presented as "betting the farm" or a project that should starve all other transit projects for years.

That’s it. We’re not a small town anymore. Haven’t been in decades actually.

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I always thought that this was due to the ferry ROW being pre-built by nature. Get some boats and build terminals and you’re done, right? Certainly they will be sure to have a clear path to acquiring the necessary land before they finalize the plan… it would be incompetent to frigg that up. Oh… yeah… *cough cough*

HRM staff are famous for low-balling details. I’ve seen it in action several times in my job.

I also hear that they haven’t properly budgeted the maintenance and upkeep of the ferries. Expect the cost of this project to double.

[Reesor]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

You guys are probably tiring of my two cents, but why are we pitching this as an either/or proposition? We should do both, plus include a plan for LRT.

Extra capacity is just that, and unless something goes horribly wrong, BRT and ferries will never cross paths, so they each can always independently add capacity. I can’t help but wonder why we continually think small in this city, like we could never pull off big projects like we did in the early 20th century ever again. And yet we like to think that technology has made us so much more productive…

We want bike lanes, right? Well think how many more cyclists a ferry could bring into the downtown to utilize (and help justify) the network. I’m sure the Bedford Highway with its nightmare painted bike lanes would be happily bypassed by suburban cyclists from all over the Bedford area. I for one would never be comfortable strapping my prized bike onto the front of a bus. Just a thought.

If proper BRT is implemented, the ferry and LRT probably won't be needed. Proper BRT has bus lanes and true priority signals from start to finish. Proper priority signals means not just having the white line for an advanced start, but changing the light so busses don't queue at signals for a full cycle. It has the capacity so that you're hopping on a bus immediately from each major transit terminal, and never waiting more than 5 minutes along each major artery. My gut says when people think of BRT, in this city they think of beautiful busses stuck in traffic. BRT only works when you remove all choke points. When people watch those beautiful busses bypass all traffic, they'll be more likely to take it themselves. When they see busses stuck on the Mackay Bridge or stuck along Barrington St, Portland St, through the Armdale Round-about, along Joseph Howe St, Wyse Road (the list goes on and on), they aren't as incentivized to take the bus. Even though the current bus lanes and priority signals help, the flood gates will open once the existing hurdles are overcome and that trip from Portland Hills to downtown takes 15-20 minutes.

A fast ferry helps Bedford West. Maybe Bedford/Sackville if people decide to bus it or drive to the terminal rather than taking already existing express busses. The same dollar amount of bus lanes, priority signals and busses/drivers helps many more people, and should be done first. There may be some federal grants that put the price of a fast ferry down for the province and the city. I still don't think it's the most efficient use of that money to solve traffic woes. Once BRT is complete, if Bedford West grows in population to the point where there aren't enough busses to transport people downtown, then a fast ferry may make sense.

I don't think LRT outside Halifax/Dartmouth/Bedford/Sackville will ever make sense for its cost. Make those park-and-rides in Windsor, Fall River, Tantallon and Porter's Lake, have enough bus capacity to make taking the bus worth it for commuters, and people will take those busses.

[Keith P.]

What are these "beautiful buses" of which you speak? I have never seen one in use by Transit locally.

[Reesor]

I should bring up a flaw in my argument. Proper BRT has dedicated bus-only roadways like Ottawa has. I don't see that happening in Halifax... not enough physical space to do it. Bus lanes would have to be made on existing roadways. Unfortunately many arteries like downtown Barrington St and Spring Garden road, are not going to be wide enough to put a dedicated bus lane on. Portland St between "Penhorn Mall" and Alderney Drive isn't wide enough to put bus lanes from start to finish. BRT would likely have to take the 111 around to the "new" new bridge. BRT with dedicated bus lanes across main arteries will need to be routed around impossible choke points. But I believe there are solutions to those problems.

[Antigonish]

I was down in Halifax yesterday so it was nice to see a lot of progress since I last visited (August 2023) and it was interesting taking the MacDonald bridge without the tolls. Based on the road design on both the Dartmouth & Halifax sides it made me think it's possible to retrofit the middle lane of the bridge for transit only ROW with the space at either end to alternate bus (or eventually tram) down the middle and make it work.

People would bitch incessantly about having a lane reduced during morning/evening commute but the "savings" in terms of moving people in high quantities would 100% be worth it once fully implemented.

[Keith P.]

I was crossing the MacDonald earlier this week and once again was struck by how little things have changed at either end since it was built in the 1950s. Going back to an idea I had a while ago, you might be able to handle an electrified rail/streetcar connection by elevating it over the existing roadway assuming the structure can handle it. You could also elevate it over Wyse Rd to connect the Dartmouth terminal to the bridge. The problem is as always on the Halifax side. Between the steep grade and the lack of available land it would take some creativity to loop it down to Barrington/DT.