Statistics Canada Reports II

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Shows how GDP per capita can be misleading. Oshawa having a GDP per capita of $36,000 is very off compared to the lifestyles there as much of the incomes in the area is generated in the Toronto CMA and therefor attributed to that CMA. Oshawa's median household income of $102,000 is actually higher than Toronto's ($97,000). It's just all generated in jobs located outside of the CMA.

In this case I don't think it's the percapita GDP that's misleading so much as trying to compare the economics of actual separate metro areas with what's functionally more a suburb or satellite city. As with most comparisons, one needs to compare "like for like" in order for it to be useful. While the statscan policy of not combining CMAs that grow into each other is useful for many things, it actually hampers things in this case.

[Innsertnamehere]

yes, exactly. Hamilton's GDP per capita is also influenced by this I think to a lesser extent - though it is genuinely a poorer CMA in general, unlike Oshawa which has a tonne of wealthy residents proportionately.

It is surprising to me to see Regina on top of the list in GDP per Capita. I would have figured it would be Calgary or Saskatoon. Toronto also does better on GDP per capita than I initially anticipated.

[hipster duck]

I thought Toronto did better on GDP stats, too. I didn't expect that the Toronto CMA on its own, not including the Oshawa and Hamilton CMAs, would have a bigger economy than the province of Quebec or more than half of Ontario's.

The Halifax CMA's economy is now just shy of 60% of all of Nova Scotia, which is very close to Winnipeg, which is 63% of Manitoba. We usually think of Winnipeg as being a city that completely dominates its province, while NS has some secondary cities that are spread out.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The Halifax CMA's economy is now just shy of 60% of all of Nova Scotia, which is very close to Winnipeg, which is 63% of Manitoba. We usually think of Winnipeg as being a city that completely dominates its province, while NS has some secondary cities that are spread out.

Not really. Nova Scotia is rapidly turning into a city-state (Greater Haligon)

The only resistance is coming from those stubborn Cape Bretoners and their outpost (CBRM), but, they are isolated and have a weak economy. It is only a matter of time.......

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I thought Toronto did better on GDP stats, too. I didn't expect that the Toronto CMA on its own, not including the Oshawa and Hamilton CMAs, would have a bigger economy than the province of Quebec or more than half of Ontario's.

The Halifax CMA's economy is now just shy of 60% of all of Nova Scotia, which is very close to Winnipeg, which is 63% of Manitoba. We usually think of Winnipeg as being a city that completely dominates its province, while NS has some secondary cities that are spread out.

I definitely don't really think that. Halifax is the only city over 100,000 people in the province and serves as the primary economic and population centre for all of Atlantic Canada.

Another interesting thing is the lower GDP per capitas of a lot of southern Ontario's smaller cities. Also not something I expected. 7 of the 10 lowest GDP per capita CMAs are in southern Ontario, even ones I don't traditionally picture as particularly low income like Barrie.

I do wonder how much of that is the influence of Toronto on these areas though drawing GDP away from them, even as that productivity returns to some of these metro areas in the forms of resident income in many cases. Same thing with cities like Chilliwack, which I'm sure is influenced by it's proximity to Vancouver.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I definitely don't really think that. Halifax...serves as the primary economic and population centre for all of Atlantic Canada.

Them there are fightin' words to a New Brunswicker

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The Halifax CMA's economy is now just shy of 60% of all of Nova Scotia, which is very close to Winnipeg, which is 63% of Manitoba. We usually think of Winnipeg as being a city that completely dominates its province, while NS has some secondary cities that are spread out.

The view in Halifax or NS compared to the stats is interesting. A lot of people there will tell you Halifax (or the Maritimes, etc.) are much poorer than other parts of Canada. Then, at the provincial politics level, there's often a sense that Halifax is "just one town" and that remote small towns represent the "real" province or bulk of the population. But a large share of even the rural population is people living in nearby towns like Truro, which has around 50,000 people and isn't rural in the classic sense of having a simple economy based on primary industries.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

(Halifax) serves as the primary economic and population centre for all of Atlantic Canada.

PEI seems to accept it's fate as a vassal state of Greater Haligon, but, such a concept would be completely foreign to the good citizens of Newfoundland (who live in a geographically discontinuous realm nearly 1000 km away). New Brunswickers also generally believe that the hegemony of the peninsular Halifax extends no further than the Tantramar Marshes.

[someone123]

I would tend to look at it objectively and not based on perception, which is sometimes inaccurate or reactionary. Because NB/PEI are separate provinces they have more autonomy than if they were in NS, but Halifax is still the "big city" of the Maritimes in a number of ways. Maybe 50% of what the relationship is like for smaller Ontario cities and Toronto. It's less so for Newfoundland, but maybe 25% of the way there, not 0%. There is also a part of northern NB that is oriented more toward Quebec City, but it's a smaller part of the province than southern NB.

The banks have Atlantic regional head offices and they're in Halifax. There's a tier of shopping that's Halifax-only, like IKEA, Simons, or various mid to high end boutiques. The IWK provides specialized healthcare to some degree to the whole region. Dalhousie is far and away the largest or more prominent comprehensive university in the Maritimes (and I think NB has a satellite Dalhousie medical program). The airport has the most options and is the busiest by a huge margin, etc.

This is a bit triggering but I'd also argue there's a big urbanism gap between Halifax and anywhere else in the region. Moncton is much closer to Fredericton in scale and the way it operates than it is to Halifax.

[MolsonExport]

Memorial is the largest university in Atlantic Canada, AFAIK. Dalhousie, however, is widely recognized as the most prestigious.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Memorial is the largest university in Atlantic Canada, AFAIK. Dalhousie, however, is widely recognized as the most prestigious.

I don't think this is true or at least it's debatable. Wikipedia says Dal has a higher total enrolment than MUN. MUN's also the only university in Newfoundland while Dal's not even the only one in its neighbourhood or on its block; they're not directly comparable. The total number of post-secondary students in Halifax is something like 50,000.

There aren't any other comparable schools or campuses elsewhere in the Maritimes. That's not to say there aren't good schools, but they're mostly smaller. I guess aside from UCB's blip with huge numbers of fake international students taking classes in movie theatres or whatever was going on there. Anyway, the point is, if you took Dal out of the picture, it would really impact the educational landscape in the region, and students would have to go to other regions for certain opportunities they can now find at Dal.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Memorial is the largest university in Atlantic Canada, AFAIK. Dalhousie, however, is widely recognized as the most prestigious.

Wikipedia says that MUN is Atlantic Canada's largest university, while saying that Dalhousie has 450 more total full time students. Maybe they mean in acreage then?

[Nouvellecosse]

The most likely explanation is that one figure or the other is outdated or simply incorrect. It could be that Memorial used to be the largest but was overtaken, or that the Memorial enrollment has grown since the last time it was added to the page. I find that when one sees that type of contradiction on wiki it's necessary to review the sources behind each claim.

[someone123]

Not sure where to file this exactly but I saw some population estimates for Halifax from Statistics Canada's community data program via the Halifax Partnership website (a local chamber of commerce type entity). The downtown population was only approximately 20,000 in 2016 but their 2024 estimate is 32,882 with annual growth around 8%. I wonder if the boundaries will be expanded in the 2026 census as well since there's so much development. The current boundaries are a bit funny; for example, they include the commons (park) but not the row of highrises along the periphery of it along Robie.

The land area is 4.1 square kilometers, so that's 8k per square km. About one third of that is park/institutional or waterfront industrial. You could probably draw a 5 square km area over 10k per square km, or will be able to soon. There must be some million-plus metro areas in North America that don't have any density nodes approaching that. It's not in a true big city range, but it's comparable to a European city centre in a small-ish to medium urban area which typically would be served by transit like trams and maybe even a small metro in some places.

[svlt]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I selfishly wish Winnipeg could have hit the 1 million mark before the brakes were hit....the city took a huge leap towards it and was poised to hit in the next year or two...now it will take a while longer.

Winnipeg is still going to get there sooner rather than later. I'd be kind of surprised if they recorded a population drop the next estimate even with the Q3 estimates dropping.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

"Musk walks into a bar - everyone in the bar is instantly a billionaire."
"my boss eats meat, and i eat cabbage. together we eat meat with cabbage"
"in Brazil, there is a famous politician (Ciro Gomes) who says GDP per capita is like putting someone's head in an oven, their feet in a fridge, and saying that their body temperature is normal."
"Easy trick to increase your GDP: make sure that your necessities, like medicine and drugs, are very expensive. Being very inefficient in your spending is also a good way to increase it."
" Me and my neighbour wash our car every day after work. If instead, I pay him $100 to wash mine and he pays me $100 to wash his, absolutely nothing of any value was created and nobody's life got better, but GDP went way up."
"1 billionaire with 99 homeless vs 100 middle-class people."
"At the height of the British Empire, vast wealth was accumulated. At the same time the vast majority of the population lived in utter poverty."
"If you leave the lights on for a day, it's not good for you because you have to pay, but it's GREAT for GDP."

My favourite: "As the old joke goes: Two economists are out on a stroll when they come across a pile of cow manure. One says to the other "I'll give you 100 dollars if you eat this pile". After some thinking the other eats it. They go on with their stroll, and come across another pile. Now the second one says, "Now I'll give you 100 dollars if you eat this pile." The first one of course eats it. After that the second economist think out loud "We both ate shit, but none of us have any more money than before." The first one replies "Yeah, but we made 200 dollars of GDP!"

Everyone repeat 10 times: mean ≠ median

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

PEI seems to accept it's fate as a vassal state of Greater Haligon, but, such a concept would be completely foreign to the good citizens of Newfoundland (who live in a geographically discontinuous realm nearly 1000 km away). New Brunswickers also generally believe that the hegemony of the peninsular Halifax extends no further than the Tantramar Marshes.

If PEI is a vassal, it a vassal of NB, thanks to the bridge! Put our two connected provinces together, and we’d have nearly as same population of Nova Scotia.

There’s no sense denying Halifax is the center of Atlantic Canada, but it really doesn’t feel like Halifax’s influence extends past the borders of NS.

Do people in PEI really feel like Halifax runs the show?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

If PEI is a vassal, it a vassal of NB, thanks to the bridge! Put our two connected provinces together, and we’d have nearly as same population of Nova Scotia.

There’s no sense denying Halifax is the center of Atlantic Canada, but it really doesn’t feel like Halifax’s influence extends past the borders of NS.

Do people in PEI really feel like Halifax runs the show?

People on PEI tend to have an inferiority complex. this is not to say they aren't intensely proud of their island. They are. I know, I was born and grew up there.

It's just that they know how small and insignificant they are on the national stage. They have no real influence. One thing I used to hear people say (and something I found infuriating), was predicating an opinion by the disclaimer "I know I'm just an Islander, but..." I hated that expression. You were automatically putting yourself down, and lessening the impact of your opinion in the first place.

Islanders tend to defer to Halifax. This does not mean they also don't have a relationship to NB, and especially Moncton. They do. They shop at Champlain Place and the Moncton Costco all the time. The Moncton Hospital will treat PEI patients in disciplines like vascular surgery and neurosurgery. They go to Saint John for treatment at the NB Heart Centre. They come over to Moncton for concerts at the Avenir Centre all the time.

Despite this, they will view Halifax as the alpha city for the region, and will go there for really advanced medical care (especially in pediatrics), and for special weekend getaways or for specialized shopping. They tend to view Halifax as better (or ay least more exotic) than NB. I do not fault them for this.

As for NB, I think Haligonians really don't understand how independent New Brunswickers really are of them. A lot of what Someone says is correct, but, for most NBers, this has no effect on our daily lives 99% of the time. I have been to Halifax twice in the last three years. New Brunswick is really quite self sufficient.

New Brunswick is not a vassal to Halifax. PEI is so small that it has to outsource a lot, and is partially vassalized to both Halifax and NB, but, more so to Halifax.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

If PEI is a vassal, it a vassal of NB, thanks to the bridge! Put our two connected provinces together, and we’d have nearly as same population of Nova Scotia.

There’s no sense denying Halifax is the center of Atlantic Canada, but it really doesn’t feel like Halifax’s influence extends past the borders of NS.

Do people in PEI really feel like Halifax runs the show?

Islanders refer to Halifax as "the City", in fact I have heard that expression from fellow Maritimers all over Atlantic Canada. "Oh you're from the City",
As Halifax rightly is a University town, Military base, business and entertainment center. Would the Q leagues Atlantic teams even exist if Halifax had not proved the concept?

PEI is what Cape Breton could be if it had a healthy Agricultural sector and as I have visited the gentle Island over the last 15 years for work there is a definite increase in energy and wealth on P.E.I.. Covid was very good for the Atlantic Region in that many Maritimers took that aberration as a chance to go home and more importantly many tens of thousands of Canadians visited for the first time.
Many Tens of thousands liked what they experienced so much they sold where they were and are now Maritimers. A much needed infusion of world view, wealth, expectation and experience. More please.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As for NB, I think Haligonians really don't understand how independent New Brunswickers really are of them. A lot of what Someone says is correct, but, for most NBers, this has no effect on our daily lives 99% of the time.

I think this is pretty standard and could be said of Toronto as well. I don't think most people in Halifax have much of an explicit opinion of day-to-day life in NB and how the two relate. There is a kind of taking for granted of the city's position in the region, and a focus on places outside the region, which is often pretty self-deprecating. Again it is a lot like Toronto on a smaller, more regional scale. A lot of it just makes sense; generally if there's some new civic issue being tackled in Halifax it's being hit before the rest of the region and the requirements are different.

I feel like the level of crankiness from smaller towns around the region is much higher in Atlantic Canada than elsewhere in Canada. I was shocked at how little comparable vitriol I heard here in BC, even though a lot of towns here are much farther from any kind of hub or major recipient of provincial largesse. I'm not sure the Kootenays are "treated better" than Cape Breton or have better access to infrastructure. Then again, the scale of deindustrialization in CB is rare in Canada and more akin to the Rust Belt of the USA.