[Saint John, NB] 99 King Street | 13 storeys | Under Construction

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by bingun

Just raising a topic of discussion. You are right on the loan, it's hard to argue with lower rates. It is also hard to quantify, in layman's terms, what providing those discount loans costs the government.

But if I am reading the announcement correctly, the provincial and municipal government are investing close to $2.5M in the project. What are they getting in return for that? I assume it's the affordable units, which work out to roughly $80,000 per unit.

Is that also a loan or is it a cash investment? How long have we secured these 'affordable' units for? Or is this related to the Large Scale Development Incentive Program?

I think it's reasonable to want to understand what our taxes are going towards and ensure it's not padding Percy's margins.

The federal program is basically a way to incentivize the construction of purpose built rental housing aimed at middle class earners. I'm not sure how much of a cost can be attributed to it but my understanding is that the loans are all repayable.

The provincial portion is through the Affordable renting housing program in the form of a forgivable loan. "Borrowers will enter into a mortgage agreement with Housing NB to ensure that units remain affordable to low and moderate income households."

The city didn't publish any details about its contribution but I'm assuming the $310k is likely from some HAF program that provides a per-unit grant for the creation of affordable housing units. I know such programs exist in Fredericton but I'm not super familiar with the details of Saint John's HAF agreement.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by bingun

Yes, that's the Large Scale Development Incentive Program they just refreshed, and I am wondering if it's related to that.

I also find the timing of both announcements a little odd, as they occur once construction is well underway. Maybe this has been locked down for some time, and the delay is just for optical reasons, but it's confusing for the average citizen why a project that is already being built needs government funding.

I'd recommend folks check out the city's Facebook post about this. There are already over 100 comments, and they are quite something.

I'm assuming that the federal agreement would have happened some time ago, and the announcement was timed to coincide with primarily the provincial agreement, which likely is not necessary for the feasibility of the development but does provide subsidies for some units.

Personally I think it's great to see private developers offering a portion of their units up for provincial subsidies. I'd much rather see these types of mixed income developments rather than having the province build public housing on its own, which tends to be more expensive to construct (a recent building permit for 10 units of NB Housing in Fredericton was valued at $450k per unit!) and is subject to neglect under future governments, which results in the problem we have now that a lot of public housing has deteriorated and it takes too long to repair and then actually house someone. I can't see the same thing happening for most private developments, particular ones built at this scale.

Even better, let's fund more local community groups and non profits who can provide mixed income housing and run it sustainably for the long term. I know this is already happening to some extent but I think there's a lot of potential to provide more community housing that isn't subject to the whims of future provincial governments.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by OliverD

The federal program is basically a way to incentivize the construction of purpose built rental housing aimed at middle class earners. I'm not sure how much of a cost can be attributed to it but my understanding is that the loans are all repayable.

The provincial portion is through the Affordable renting housing program in the form of a forgivable loan. "Borrowers will enter into a mortgage agreement with Housing NB to ensure that units remain affordable to low and moderate income households."

The city didn't publish any details about its contribution but I'm assuming the $310k is likely from some HAF program that provides a per-unit grant for the creation of affordable housing units. I know such programs exist in Fredericton but I'm not super familiar with the details of Saint John's HAF agreement.

Thanks for the response. I was reading into the provincial program after I posted, but the web page had quite limited information.

Do you know what happens after the forgivable loan is discharged? Can the property owner kick out the affordable residents and put them all up to market rates? Yes, non-profit or dedicated government housing initiatives can be more expensive, but they don't have an expiry date.

Originally Posted by OliverD

I'm assuming that the federal agreement would have happened some time ago, and the announcement was timed to coincide with primarily the provincial agreement, which likely is not necessary for the feasibility of the development but does provide subsidies for some units.

Personally I think it's great to see private developers offering a portion of their units up for provincial subsidies. I'd much rather see these types of mixed income developments rather than having the province build public housing on its own, which tends to be more expensive to construct (a recent building permit for 10 units of NB Housing in Fredericton was valued at $450k per unit!) and is subject to neglect under future governments, which results in the problem we have now that a lot of public housing has deteriorated and it takes too long to repair and then actually house someone. I can't see the same thing happening for most private developments, particular ones built at this scale.

Even better, let's fund more local community groups and non profits who can provide mixed income housing and run it sustainably for the long term. I know this is already happening to some extent but I think there's a lot of potential to provide more community housing that isn't subject to the whims of future provincial governments.

I am happy to see that these affordable units are targeted at seniors and those with disabilities. Allowing them to live uptown, where they have access to services and support without dependence on cars or public transport, is important and will hopefully allow them to be less isolated and more independent.

“This is a huge win for Saint John, and I’m so pleased that all three levels of government are coming together to improve access to affordable housing for New Brunswickers, particularly in this region, where those kinds of places can be hard to come by. A total of 32 units in this development will be made available to seniors and people with disabilities as affordable housing.” – The Honourable David Hickey, Minister responsible for the New Brunswick Housing Corporation

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by bingun

Do you know what happens after the forgivable loan is discharged? Can the property owner kick out the affordable residents and put them all up to market rates? Yes, non-profit or dedicated government housing initiatives can be more expensive, but they don't have an expiry date.

A good question. I would assume that the owner of the property would still be eligible for the top-up to an agreed-up on rate above 30% of the tenant's income. There's certainly the risk that these units would not longer be "affordable" under the province's definition, but if these agreements are longer term (like 20 years), then after the loan is discharged the units are likely to be naturally more affordable than new construction.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

If low interest loans and commitments to affordable housing can get more big project built in Saint John, bring it on. Hopefully future projects will come in much nicer packaging than 99 King.

32 units, however, is nothing to scoff at, especially if they remain affordable units into the long term. Still, the only way $2.2 million in government funds going towards one of the ugliest property development projects in Canada should be considered tolerable, is if we find out that all 32 affordable units are very long term commitments. I heard the affordable rents would tied to individual tenets income levels, and not a single rate.

I have no real issue with government providing low interest financing to property developers to address the housing crisis, I just hope we see such funding arrangements made possible for FUTURE projects. Uptown deserves much more exciting projects than 99 King's 12 or 13 storeys, let alone the 6 storey 6 storey that finally got erected at Fundy Quay.

But hey, at least this project first page is only from back in 2021. The first page for the Fundy Quay Thread is from back in 2013, and I think there's posts on the site in Saint John's main project thread dating back to like 2008.

If there's was any issue I had with the Fundy Harbour Group getting their own low interest government financing a few months back, it was that it was left entirely unclear as to whether that loans ensured the two 20+ towers would be built or not.

Basically, I don't have any issues with providing low interest loans for major developments, even ugly developments like 99 King, but I do think it's a bit much for Wayne to make a big deal of those one. I think David Hickey deserves more credit than I usually give him for this one, as $2.2 million for 32 affordable units seems to be quite a good deal for the government's priorities if they are long term units... and it does give him a project a lot taller than usual to take some photo ops in front of.

With the city's new development strategy to attract major projects over $40 million dollars, and now some precedent showing that government (both federal and provincial) is willing to provide lower than market rate financing major developments, maybe Saint John will finally attract some major developers from outside the region to invest in the Port City, and find ways to keep up the steady population growth the city has been experiencing since 2020.

If Saint John had enough rental supply to be known as a city with "cheaper" rent again, young people would be a lot more comfortable sticking around, which would also help the city meet its demographic goals.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by OliverD

A good question. I would assume that the owner of the property would still be eligible for the top-up to an agreed-up on rate above 30% of the tenant's income. There's certainly the risk that these units would not longer be "affordable" under the province's definition, but if these agreements are longer term (like 20 years), then after the loan is discharged the units are likely to be naturally more affordable than new construction.

Agreements can be renegotiated upon the end of the 20 year period, but you're generally right. AFAIK, NB Housing pays for major repairs to vacant affordable units, vacancies (as infrequent as they are), and allows owners a lot of selection among prospective tenants.

[darkharbour]

I didn’t snap a photo, but the work on the next level has begun, a number of panels for the 5th floor were in place when I was walking past this afternoon.

[Helladog]

[michael_d40]

I saw this precast new build on Quinpool in Halifax. (Condos on top, retail at ground level) It looks great. It's a shame we couldn't have had the corner done the same way at the top of King. Percy should have just done a copy and paste of this building and saved some money with design LOL.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.6464759,-...I1MTIwOS4wIKXMDSoKLDEwMDc5MjA2N0gBUAM%3D

[Sabien]

Capped off another floor. And I thought shovelling my driveway was bad - can't imagine clearing that square footage.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by michael_d40

I saw this precast new build on Quinpool in Halifax. (Condos on top, retail at ground level) It looks great. It's a shame we couldn't have had the corner done the same way at the top of King. Percy should have just done a copy and paste of this building and saved some money with design LOL.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.6464759,-...I1MTIwOS4wIKXMDSoKLDEwMDc5MjA2N0gBUAM%3D

The black windows also look better.

[adamuptownsj]

Even if the windows were symmetrical.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Even if the windows were symmetrical.

Yeah, I think we can all agree that this is NOT going to be a very "attractive" design on the skyline but 1) it is a development that at least will add to the skyline and 2) will be a baseline for what NOT to do going forward compared to others. So we may not like the look, but maybe it will become what 555 California Street in San Francisco was in it's day to Saint John. Highly disliked when built, yet eventually forgotten as better structures arrived around it.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Sabien

Capped off another floor. And I thought shovelling my driveway was bad - can't imagine clearing that square footage.

At 5 stories there is enough there now that you can get a pretty good idea of what it is going to look like. What uninspired, utilitarian box.

To be clear.....yes, it's better than the derelict building that was there or a vacant lot/hole but I see it as an opportunity missed.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Too bad they didn't set the gray part in a few metres and create a fourth floor terrace for residents...at least on the street side. Little doubt that the developer wanted to squeeze every cent out of the project and it shows.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

Too bad they didn't set the gray part in a few metres and create a fourth floor terrace for residents...at least on the street side. Little doubt that the developer wanted to squeeze every cent out of the project and it shows.

Yes, the setback on the Irving building really helps the look. I had heard they were going to setback the top 1 or 2 floors on this building to provide outdoor terraces to the penthouse apartments. Even if that's true it won't have much of an effect on the slab sided box look being that close to the top floor.

That was a while ago though so that idea may have gone the way of some of the other design elements in the name of cost cutting.

[darkharbour]

The sixth floor exterior walls are all up now, so this build is officially higher than the City Market tower next door.

[KnoxfordGuy]

It can be clearly seen from Harbour Bridge now.

Edit: It's going to make the skyline a bit monochrome

[sailor734]

So, any bets on whether when they top this off is those crazy upside down ottoman legs will be there on the corners? I suspect they would have to coast at least something. This building appears to be being built on the cheap so I'm going to bet "NO"

[bingun]

Originally Posted by sailor734

So, any bets on whether when they top this off is those crazy upside down ottoman legs will be there on the corners? I suspect they would have to coast at least something. This building appears to be being built on the cheap so I'm going to bet "NO"

Until we see any evidence to contradict it, I believe it is going to look exactly as OSCO showed in its magazine.