Alto High Speed Rail

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by BGO

For the ones who think they ll build it north of ottawa river, you are dreaming. The cost might be double compared to flat barely no obstacles south side. I d prefer to use that extra money to build the station in the old soon available downtown train station in front on the chateau

Every single planning indication so far is that they will reuse as much of existing infrastructure and rail corridors as they can. Really don't get where people have this idea they are going to cross the river in Ottawa. They may branch off near Vankleek Hill. But that will still be reusing most of the current corridor and stations.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by BGO

For the ones who think they ll build it north of ottawa river, you are dreaming. The cost might be double compared to flat barely no obstacles south side. I d prefer to use that extra money to build the station in the old soon available downtown train station in front on the chateau

As much as I love the idea of a downtown station, Ottawa is not a terminus on this route once fully built out. I can't see a route that involves trains pulling into a station here and backing out, so that means a whole lot of tunneling and infrastructure that needs to be built. Doesn't seem likely that they will go that route.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

As much as I love the idea of a downtown station, Ottawa is not a terminus on this route once fully built out. I can't see a route that involves trains pulling into a station here and backing out, so that means a whole lot of tunneling and infrastructure that needs to be built. Doesn't seem likely that they will go that route.

Hear me out; I want Union Station...

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibilities that Union could be reopen. They've made it pretty clear that in an ideal scenario, HSR will provide downtown to downtown service, so they may have enough incentive to go the extra mile (no pun intended).

• Most high speed rail trains have cabs at both ends, so they don't "backup" the way VIA does now (takes like half an hour to backup turn around out of Gare Centrale). They can get in and out just as quickly.
• Tracks could go through Hurdman, use the Lees land that was once reserved for the Alta Vista Expressway and a combination of a narrowed Nicholas Street (maybe with Kettle, we don't need 4 lanes) or Colonel By (the idea of removing Colonel By has been raised in the past, though for pedestrians and cyclists, no rail). The challenge is the mess created by the Queensway and Nicholas, along with the need for underground platforms.

[Kitchissippi]

A logical route would be to use the Prescott Russell Trail to past Bourget, straighten it out with a new ROW between Pendelton and Vankleek, then cross over the river to Quebec near Pointe-Fortune, and then use the Autoroute 13 corridor to get into Montreal. It passes by Dorval airport, and with a people mover a station there could connect to the terminal

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

A logical route would be to use the Prescott Russell Trail to past Bourget, straighten it out with a new ROW between Pendelton and Vankleek, then cross over the river to Quebec near Pointe-Fortune, and then use the Autoroute 13 corridor to get into Montreal. It passes by Dorval airport, and with a people mover a station there could connect to the terminal

They seem fixated on Laval, which would seem to necessitate a Northern approach.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by phil235

As much as I love the idea of a downtown station, Ottawa is not a terminus on this route once fully built out. I can't see a route that involves trains pulling into a station here and backing out, so that means a whole lot of tunneling and infrastructure that needs to be built. Doesn't seem likely that they will go that route.

It would be more likely for Alto to move the station further south to reduce travel time through Ottawa than it is for them to move the station further north to have the station downtown.

[J.OT13]

Great interview with the Alto boss on All in a Day. Some new info we hadn't heard yet.

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-92-all-in-a-day

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Hear me out; I want Union Station...

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibilities that Union could be reopen. They've made it pretty clear that in an ideal scenario, HSR will provide downtown to downtown service, so they may have enough incentive to go the extra mile (no pun intended).

• Most high speed rail trains have cabs at both ends, so they don't "backup" the way VIA does now (takes like half an hour to backup turn around out of Gare Centrale). They can get in and out just as quickly.
• Tracks could go through Hurdman, use the Lees land that was once reserved for the Alta Vista Expressway and a combination of a narrowed Nicholas Street (maybe with Kettle, we don't need 4 lanes) or Colonel By (the idea of removing Colonel By has been raised in the past, though for pedestrians and cyclists, no rail). The challenge is the mess created by the Queensway and Nicholas, along with the need for underground platforms.

Good point on the "backing up", I guess it would just be a matter of an engineer sprinting the length of the train, so probably wouldn't delay much. I was more thinking that the approaches would need to be low speed for a pretty long stretch, so the coming downtown and retracing the route out would increase travel time by a fair bit.

I can't see Nicolas going entirely. My longstanding hope was that it be converted into more of a grand boulevard adjacent to UOttawa, but unlikely that leaves any space for trains. So you are probably talking tunneled downtown to the highway and then maybe elevated once you get to the river? It's a lot of complication and some serious grades for that last stretch. Would be super cool to see high speed trains going across the 417 though.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding has been that there's always been opposition to closing roads in the Prairies due to the inconvenience to farmers. It was definitely a thing for the Southwestern Ontario against the Wynne proposed HSR. Even building culverts at every crossing is a cost.

Building access roads helps the farmers who need to cross the highways or HSR. Eventually farmers will sell land that is too inconvenient to get to.
This conversation is all conjecture, I will be long on the other side of bar before even a HFR line is built on the prairies.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Best path for them is to basically to build a regular speed line with only the urban/suburban portions fully grade separated. ie Calgary to Airdrie and Edmonton to Leduc. That's still a $5B+ project. But that gives them a pathway to get later federal support for more upgrades.

Yep

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

Good point on the "backing up", I guess it would just be a matter of an engineer sprinting the length of the train, so probably wouldn't delay much. I was more thinking that the approaches would need to be low speed for a pretty long stretch, so the coming downtown and retracing the route out would increase travel time by a fair bit.

I can't see Nicolas going entirely. My longstanding hope was that it be converted into more of a grand boulevard adjacent to UOttawa, but unlikely that leaves any space for trains. So you are probably talking tunneled downtown to the highway and then maybe elevated once you get to the river? It's a lot of complication and some serious grades for that last stretch. Would be super cool to see high speed trains going across the 417 though.

Could go down into a tunnel just north of the Rideau River, so portal would be within the Lees land. I still think there could be space for elevated or even surface until just before Laurier when you get to the pinch point at the DND HQ. Though for the sake of the Canal's vibes/USESCO, maybe we'd need that tunnel to start at the Lees area.

[roger1818]

Re backing up out of a reopened Union Station, I hate to say this, as I really don't think it will happen and I don't want to give the foamers ammunition, but don't forget that Union Station did have a through track onto the Alexandra Bridge. With Alto possibly looking at moving to the north shore, they could use the reconstruction of the Alexandra Bridge to allow them to get over to Hull. They would then need to run above the [Sentier] De L'Île Pathway and blast through some buildings to connect up to the ROW parallel to the Rapid bus line. This is a highly unlikely option, but not impossible.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Building access roads helps the farmers who need to cross the highways or HSR. Eventually farmers will sell land that is too inconvenient to get to.
This conversation is all conjecture, I will be long on the other side of bar before even a HFR line is built on the prairies.

Yep

Even divided highway with surface crossings presents this problem. The farm I grew up on (western Manitoba) eventually ended up selling all land on one side of the highway because it was too difficult to cross. Increase in traffic and the growth of total equipment length to beyond the width of the centre ditch made getting across extremely impractical.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Re backing up out of a reopened Union Station, I hate to say this, as I really don't think it will happen and I don't want to give the foamers ammunition, but don't forget that Union Station did have a through track onto the Alexandra Bridge. With Alto possibly looking at moving to the north shore, they could use the reconstruction of the Alexandra Bridge to allow them to get over to Hull. They would then need to run above the [Sentier] De L'Île Pathway and blast through some buildings to connect up to the ROW parallel to the Rapid bus line. This is a highly unlikely option, but not impossible.

The other huge issue with Union Station is that most of the footprint of the original station is now missing. Almost the entire train platform portion was to the south east of what's now the Senate. A significant portion of the building overlaps the footprint of what's now the Convention Centre.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Re backing up out of a reopened Union Station, I hate to say this, as I really don't think it will happen and I don't want to give the foamers ammunition, but don't forget that Union Station did have a through track onto the Alexandra Bridge. With Alto possibly looking at moving to the north shore, they could use the reconstruction of the Alexandra Bridge to allow them to get over to Hull. They would then need to run above the [Sentier] De L'Île Pathway and blast through some buildings to connect up to the ROW parallel to the Rapid bus line. This is a highly unlikely option, but not impossible.

So what you're saying is that is definitely the route?

[Truenorth00]

Why do any of this when there is a perfectly serviceable corridor that they can repurpose today?

How much more ridership would they gain from stopping at Ottawa Union vs Tremblay?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

The other huge issue with Union Station is that most of the footprint of the original station is now missing. Almost the entire train platform portion was to the south east of what's now the Senate. A significant portion of the building overlaps the footprint of what's now the Convention Centre.

Agreed. Playing devil's advocate though, we don't need all 8 tracks that the original station had. Four tracks would likely be more than enough and the platforms could likely be significantly shorter than they were back in the day.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So what you're saying is that is definitely the route?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why do any of this when there is a perfectly serviceable corridor that they can repurpose today?

Which corridor are you referring to?

The Alexandra Sub? It would need to be straightened to allow for HSR and the route becomes congested once you branch off of it onto either CN's Kingston Sub or CPCK's Winchester Sub. The construction required would also disrupt existing service.

The former M&O Sub? It is certainly straighter and more direct, but it does still have some bends that would need to be straightened out.

The former L'Orignal Sub? It was even straighter, though less direct than the M&O. It had a bridge to cross over to Quebec in Hawskbury, but most of the evidence of it seems to be long gone. Much of it has become the 174 though, so it probably isn't feasible.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How much more ridership would they gain from stopping at Ottawa Union vs Tremblay?

Hard to say. There are certainly pros and cons to both locations. The current location is easier to get to by car. A downtown station would be walking distance from many destinations and would be served by multiple bus routes. Both would have easy access to the O-Train.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Which corridor are you referring to?

Was mostly referring to the current routing. It's straight enough. They'll need to straighten in a few places. As for closing current service? Given the current level of demand, people can do just fine with buses for a bit.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Hard to say. There are certainly pros and cons to both locations. The current location is easier to get to by car. A downtown station would be walking distance from many destinations and would be served by multiple bus routes. Both would have easy access to the O-Train.

Moving the station from where it is today would be a multi-billion dollar affair. I just can't see substantial ridership gain that would justify this. Moreover, it's only justifiable if the line is running through. No way they'd accept a wye that massively slows down traffic to Montreal.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It would be more likely for Alto to move the station further south to reduce travel time through Ottawa than it is for them to move the station further north to have the station downtown.

That would be counter productive since you're just end up trading rail travel time (relatively fast) with public transit / cab / driving time (relatively slow). The current train station location is an very good balance of 'reasonable to get to by rail' and 'reasonable to get to by car / LRT / cab'. Either moving back to downtown or moving further from downtown would be a compromise.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

That would be counter productive since you're just end up trading rail travel time (relatively fast) with public transit / cab / driving time (relatively slow). The current train station location is an very good balance of 'reasonable to get to by rail' and 'reasonable to get to by car / LRT / cab'. Either moving back to downtown or moving further from downtown would be a compromise.

People are just obsessed with being able to walk out of the station and to offices or other attractions. It's understandable. That's what Toronto and Montreal have. The value to do that in Ottawa is just not there.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

People are just obsessed with being able to walk out of the station and to offices or other attractions. It's understandable. That's what Toronto and Montreal have. The value to do that in Ottawa is just not there.

It is a reasonable obsession as these things go. It fundamentally changes the dynamic.

I don't get the backing up or lost infrastrucure at Union Station argument. I assume a $60 Billion bill includes a lot of tunnelling so it would be built underneath Line 1. If we want to scale back and have a sort of high speed route which is even reasonable for especially Montreal to Ottawa it can use existing infrastructure and be done for a fraction of the cost. The talk of Laval suggests an entirely new route.