Whitecaps MLS news

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

We're also assuming this goes anywhere, rather than just being grandstanding to get a better leg up against PavCo when they sign with BC Place again.

Isn't the threat to move the team out of the city the grandstanding?

[logan5]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Moving it out of downtown is still a mistake. It's a shame. Can they give them the Larwill Park land since VAG doesn't seem likely to do anything? Is it large enough?

BC Place is a second rate, make work soccer venue. The curtains look ridiculous in my opinion, and it still looks cavernous. And the lack of revenue generated by missing out on concession and parking is hurting the team.

A soccer specific stadium will have a far better atmosphere - far more intimate. The stands will be much closer to the field, and being open air, there will be spectacular views of the mountains, and water views as well.

The big drawback is the lack of amenities in the area. Obviously BC Place has an abundance of restaurants, bars, and a casino surrounding it, but we are not talking about just a stadium here, but an entertainment district that will be proposed (through rezoning). There will likely be a major casino, and bars and restaurants right on the doorstep of the new stadium. The City will also likely make a local area plan that suits an entertainment district, meaning high density residential around the area of Renfrew and McGill, and possibly residential as part of the stadium proposal.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Moving it out of downtown is still a mistake. It's a shame. Can they give them the Larwill Park land since VAG doesn't seem likely to do anything? Is it large enough?

No. The area a soccer stadium would require isn't going to be very different from BC Place, which is about 4 city blocks. They couldn't make the waterfront proposal fit on an area around that size, because they needed space all round for any potential emergency evacuation of the facility. (That wouldn't be a problem at Hastings Park). The area the Whitecaps are proposing to lease now would be about 10 city blocks, as they would also be leasing the land to build the 'entertainment district' (if they can find development partners).

The commercial area around Seattle's 'city centre' stadia is buzzing on game days, and very, very quiet the rest of the time (and the rail station is there, too). A lot of restaurant and bar businesses have opened, and closed again a few years later. Without other significant residents, tourists or office workers, an isolated bunch of bars and restaurants might find it hard going near the PNE. And adding significant rental residential into the mix might help the bars and restaurants, but it won't add anything to the bottom line for the stadium. The rents won't be Downtown rents, and they have to cover the financing costs for the apartments, and an operating profit for the owner (who won't be accumulating capital value as they'll be leasehold), so there wouldn't be much, if anything, to prop up the Whitecaps stadium costs.

[djmk]

Originally Posted by logan5

BC Place is a second rate, make work soccer venue. The curtains look ridiculous in my opinion, and it still looks cavernous. And the lack of revenue generated by missing out on concession and parking is hurting the team.

A soccer specific stadium will have a far better atmosphere - far more intimate. The stands will be much closer to the field, and being open air, there will be spectacular views of the mountains, and water views as well.

The big drawback is the lack of amenities in the area. Obviously BC Place has an abundance of restaurants, bars, and a casino surrounding it, but we are not talking about just a stadium here, but an entertainment district that will be proposed (through rezoning). There will likely be a major casino, and bars and restaurants right on the doorstep of the new stadium. The City will also likely make a local area plan that suits an entertainment district, meaning high density residential around the area of Renfrew and McGill, and possibly residential as part of the stadium proposal.

as someone who goes to every game, BC Place is an amazing venue. the jumbo tron its self its almost completely unique to any stadium on this planet. its the second biggest in NA alone.

imho, building this entertainment dustrict, casio, stadium, restaurants is not possible on a mere 40 acres? and why would anyone want to be entertained here on a non game night. entrainment districts (like in Scottsdale) are completely dead if they are non downtown. you can not have nice restaurants.

and how many beers need to be served to warent a better concession?

[WarrenC12]

BC Place is great when full. Any venue is weak when it's filled 50% or less.

As for the casino around the PNE, that would be a pretty big kick in the balls since the whole reason Hastings Park can't continue is the removal of casino revenue from the Province.

[djmk]

It's my understanding that the casino rights go to one of the FNs in the area

[kikin]

I voted for Sim in the last election and was planning to vote for him again, but this whole thing stinks to me and he lost my vote. Big multinational casino companies stink too. I don't think the provincial NDP are moral either. Not much has changed in the last many decades of the Vancouver way of doing things it seems.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Changing City

No. The area a soccer stadium would require isn't going to be very different from BC Place, which is about 4 city blocks. They couldn't make the waterfront proposal fit on an area around that size, because they needed space all round for any potential emergency evacuation of the facility. (That wouldn't be a problem at Hastings Park). The area the Whitecaps are proposing to lease now would be about 10 city blocks, as they would also be leasing the land to build the 'entertainment district' (if they can find development partners).

The commercial area around Seattle's 'city centre' stadia is buzzing on game days, and very, very quiet the rest of the time (and the rail station is there, too). A lot of restaurant and bar businesses have opened, and closed again a few years later. Without other significant residents, tourists or office workers, an isolated bunch of bars and restaurants might find it hard going near the PNE. And adding significant rental residential into the mix might help the bars and restaurants, but it won't add anything to the bottom line for the stadium. The rents won't be Downtown rents, and they have to cover the financing costs for the apartments, and an operating profit for the owner (who won't be accumulating capital value as they'll be leasehold), so there wouldn't be much, if anything, to prop up the Whitecaps stadium costs.

That's a shame. What about Concord's False Creek North area? Still too small?

As you say, without any other business than soccer and a few concerts, the Hastings Park location doesn't seem like it will develop into much an entertainment/dining hub. Downtown already has all that. Plus a rapid transit system that benefits from the off-peak ridership the Whitecaps bring.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by djmk

as someone who goes to every game, BC Place is an amazing venue. the jumbo tron its self its almost completely unique to any stadium on this planet. its the second biggest in NA alone.

imho, building this entertainment dustrict, casio, stadium, restaurants is not possible on a mere 40 acres? and why would anyone want to be entertained here on a non game night. entrainment districts (like in Scottsdale) are completely dead if they are non downtown. you can not have nice restaurants.

and how many beers need to be served to warent a better concession?

A generous sized soccer stadium has a footprint covering 200m x 200m, which is 10 acres, so you would only be taking up 25% of the land area of Hastings Park.

People go out to casinos, restaurants and bars on none game nights, but it's hard to draw on any examples within Vancouver, because there is no other major entertainment districts to compare to. Scottsdale is very suburban, low density, so I think Vancouver can beat Scottsdale in the vibrancy department. The Pacific Coliseum host 120 events per year, with a lot of major concerts. The amphitheater will host large concerts, plus the Whitecaps and large concerts that would happen there.

Renfew/Hastings area is already planned to be high density - rapid transit zone, so there will be high rise apartments built close by, if not right on the Hastings Park site itself. Vancouver is one of the best cities in North America at building high density neighbourhoods in a short period of time.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Isn't the threat to move the team out of the city the grandstanding?

according to CKNW Detroit and Edmonton would love to take them off Vancouver's hands.

They also mentioned one of the negotiating points with some issues is the Whitecaps want a bigger cut of concession sales but Pavco doesn't want to share or something like that.

I bet they will end up coming to a new deal and stay in BC Place.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

according to CKNW Detroit and Edmonton would love to take them off Vancouver's hands.

They also mentioned one of the negotiating points with some issues is the Whitecaps want a bigger cut of concession sales but Pavco doesn't want to share or something like that.

I bet they will end up coming to a new deal and stay in BC Place.

Has anyone heard what the Whitecaps pay Pavco now?

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

according to CKNW Detroit and Edmonton would love to take them off Vancouver's hands.

They also mentioned one of the negotiating points with some issues is the Whitecaps want a bigger cut of concession sales but Pavco doesn't want to share or something like that.

I bet they will end up coming to a new deal and stay in BC Place.

They share but it's somewhere under 20%. But at the same time BC Place is still in the red with that revenue share so any cuts will just mean taxpayers will end up covering it.

Will people cry if the NDP sell BC Place to the Whitecaps?

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Has anyone heard what the Whitecaps pay Pavco now?

I know zero about The Breaker so who knows how accurate they are:

The 2016 update set the Whitecaps’ annual payments to PavCo at $225,000 from 2017 to 2021. The payments increased by $25,000-per year beginning in 2022, maxing out at $325,000 in 2025, the equivalent of $19,118 per MLS regular season game.

The deal also hiked the facility fee to $3.25 per ticket and the parties agreed to a review of facility fees during the 2021 operating year.

https://bobmackin.substack.com/p/exclusive-read-the-whitecapsbc-place

[officedweller]

Isn't the obvious example the Toronto FC stadium (BMO Field) on the comparable CNE grounds
- outside of downtown on fairgrounds, but with streetcar and GO Train access?

How does it do in terms of revenue, etc.?

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Isn't the obvious example the Toronto FC stadium (BMO Field) on the comparable CNE grounds
- outside of downtown on fairgrounds, but with streetcar and GO Train access?

How does it do in terms of revenue, etc.?

BMO Field, home of Major League Soccer's Toronto FC and Canada's National Soccer teams, realized an operating profit of $1.1 million in 2011, an increase of 72 per cent from 2010’s operating profit of $640,000. The results exceeded the initial operating profit estimate by $635,000.

As in previous fiscal years, the operating profit will be shared between the Exhibition Place/City of Toronto and MLSE in accordance with their agreement. MLSE has managed events and the building operations for BMO Field since its inception in 2007. Under MLSE’s management, BMO Field has returned more than $1.75 million of stadium profits back to the City of Toronto.

https://www.torontofc.ca/news/bmo-field-delivers-returns

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Will people cry if the NDP sell BC Place to the Whitecaps?

They wouldn't even sell the naming rights after all was said and done.

They won't sell the stadium, it probably has more value for non-Whitecaps events.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by officedweller

They wouldn't even sell the naming rights after all was said and done.

They won't sell the stadium, it probably has more value for non-Whitecaps events.

I think PavCo historically lost money and the convention centre was the profitable venue? They have close to $880 million in net debt.

The NDP allowed PavCo to start the process in 2019 to look for a naming right sponsor but it got shelved during the pandemic

https://www.biv.com/news/economy-law-pol...0the,and%20the%20project%20was%20shelved.

[Migrant_Coconut]

BC Place also had an exceptional year, with operating revenues totalling $74.64 million against a budget of $47.35 million. Revenue generation occurred across its major lines of business, including live sporting events, concerts and entertainment, consumer shows and sponsorships, delivering further annual revenues to PavCo and agreements which will deliver benefits for PavCo well into the future. After Cost of Sales, the resulting Gross Margin of $27.18 million was substantially ahead of budget and last year’s results...

Link

$325k out of $74.6m is 0.4%. Ticket sales obviously drive that number up, but needless to say, the Whitecaps need BC Place more than the other way around.

[jollyburger]

It would be interesting to know how they got that $24 million dollar jump from 10 more events. Taylor Swift? I think the Whitecaps attendance is slightly down from 23/24 by about 5K.

24/25 110 events

BC Place also had an exceptional year, with operating revenues totalling $74.64 million against a budget of $47.35 million.

23/24 100 events

BC Place had a very strong year, as operating revenue totalled $50.033 million against a budget of $27.737 million and an increase from last year’s result of $44.250 million.

https://www.bcpavco.com/pdfs/2023_24%20A...ort%20BC%20Pavilion%20Corporation(4).pdf

[Glow Fun City]

Definitely the Taylor effect. 3 shows with 70,000 at each…