[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Trying to get into the head of JDI why they’d want that piece of land. Is one of the future evaluations is parking? If so, a big chunk of Union St down to Pitt street will be JDI parking - be pretty ballsy to pull that off. I can’t see them doing residential because they aren’t in that business. Maybe they are considering another office building, seeing how 300 Union is completely full with no room for more employees. I’d be ok with it if something else is going to be built, but to expand a parking crater that already destroyed dozens of homes really 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

Even as green space it’s a huge waste of prime land in the city, that company has gutted the entire length of Union Street and a block of Elliott Row (which they bought and demolished sequentially), all for what exactly?

[cdnguys]

Centracare
SIMM’s Brush factory
Block #1 of Elliot Row
Golden Ball

[bingun]

Someone posted this comment on Reddit. I found this in an old city planning document, but I wonder if this still applies. I believe both the Golden Ball and the King St lot are within this zone based on the map in the document.

That's not to say they couldn't apply for an exemption, but that would be bold.

Zoning by-law section 11.1(3)(c) says:

A Commercial Parking Lot permitted in subsection 11.1(2) shall not be developed on a lot located in the Uptown Parking Exemption Area, as defined by Schedule C of this By-law, which contained a main building on the date this By-law was enacted.

[sailor734]

I guess it would depend on the definition of "commercial" parking lot. If it was for employees only (rather than a fee for use lot available to the general public) might it not be considered a private parking lot rather than commercial?

[adamuptownsj]

I'm not an Irving hater but they're sitting on acres of prime development land for what seem like weird internal ideological reasons about not wanting adjoining property owners. What's the point of all this? How does it benefit them?

Relatedly, why did the city choose to push back on the one justifiable lot they wanted to create, at the Centracare site, so strongly?

No idea how this stuff makes their urban office presence more appealing. Presumably they'll plant grass and sit on it for decades then rezone for surface lots. I predict the same fate for the King Sq N/Sydney lot.

[MonctonRad]

Irving owns an entire city block in Moncton on the NE corner of King and Main, immediately next to the soon-to-be-built Infinity Tower too, It is prime land right at the eastern entrance to the downtown core. Given Irving's history however, I am not very sanguine about any hidden development plans.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

I'm not an Irving hater but they're sitting on acres of prime development land for what seem like weird internal ideological reasons about not wanting adjoining property owners. What's the point of all this? How does it benefit them?

It doesn't. You know, decades ago as a kid I used to think "Wow, the Irvings must be really smart to have built what they did". But over the years, and after being far away and seeing the world, I realize now how much of an opportunity they have missed out on.

They are a very insular organization, despite what they say about "being there for the community". You see this with the parking lot proposal fiasco near the mill, the distributed workforce in cheap warehouses around the city. They do things based on a very narrow "nickels and dimes" approach to their business.

Example: They'd rather not have anyone block their view so they'll convert an art deco building into grass - as opposed to allowing it to be housing for skilled people to live uptown and walk to work. Or on the oil side, if they are in fact buying Chipman Hill to provide their own accommodations for corporate guests, it might save them $140/night but what does that do to the broader accommodations sector in town?

Other similar family-owned businesses around the globe have been far more inclusive with the surrounding community. They've built universities, museums, parks, started business incubators, restored historic buildings for public enjoyment, and more. They encourage employees to support the local community and small businesses while sponsoring countless festivals, sports teams, and more. Heck, I know one family that bought the only hotel in town, upgraded it, and made it suitable for their visitors AND tourists. Why? Because it makes their hometown more desirable to live in. A more desirable place to live, the easier it is to attract top talent to relocate. The more investment back into the community, the more accepting the locals are to your development requests.

If both "Irving's" had taken a different approach to how they support the local community, made Saint John less of a "Flint" from their businesses and more a "Pittsburgh", the benefits for the community, and their revenues, would have been significantly bigger than they are today. I'd argue they'd be global Fortune 100 companies had they not been so cheap and insular.

Sad really.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

I'm not an Irving hater but they're sitting on acres of prime development land for what seem like weird internal ideological reasons about not wanting adjoining property owners. What's the point of all this? How does it benefit them?

Relatedly, why did the city choose to push back on the one justifiable lot they wanted to create, at the Centracare site, so strongly?

No idea how this stuff makes their urban office presence more appealing. Presumably they'll plant grass and sit on it for decades then rezone for surface lots. I predict the same fate for the King Sq N/Sydney lot.

I kind of understood their approach back in the day when KC was building an empire across multiple industries and turning New Brunswick into his kingdom. Access to property to fuel that growth and expansion was important, and they would be willing to 'play the long game' knowing that an opportunity may arise one day and they could monopolize things, as they do best.

But we are now in the 3rd generation, and much of that empire has been broken up or has less family involvement. We've had the recent rumours of an Irving Oil sale, and I wouldn't be surprised to see JDI split in two between Saint John and Moncton in time. While they take advantage of smaller local opportunities, they aren't gobbling up entire industries as they did in the past and sitting on real estate seems strange.

I think the two most realistic options are that it sits empty for some time or JDI plan a commercial office building to consolidate some of their existing spaces or for an increase in headcount.

[adamuptownsj]

The mill lot wasn't a fiasco. It was literally implied when they built the 'temporary' park in the first place. I found the city's willingness to fight them here, but not on the asphalt-ization of prime uptown real estate, bizarre.

They bought the Chipman Hill property a decade ago. The lease just expired. It will be using it for executive meetings, not accommodations, IIRC. In either case, it's the building's current use. I don't see how maintaining it would negatively impact the (increasingly dated) hotels worse than the burgeoning AirBnB market.

For parks, I mean... there's a very prominent one on the west side. Technically two parks if you count Sheldon's Point separately. They do a ton philanthropically.

Saint John is hardly the blown-out wasteland that Flint is. And a lot of that is due to Irving investment and jobs. The various Irving facilities are all quite modern by North American standards.

They're immeasurably frustrating, especially from a development perspective. I have serious problems with what they're doing and what they have done in the Peninsula. But I think you're a little over the top/off-base in your critique.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

They're immeasurably frustrating, especially from a development perspective. I have serious problems with what they're doing and what they have done in the Peninsula. But I think you're a little over the top/off-base in your critique.

I'm not arguing they haven't done "things" for the community but the level compared to other family-owned businesses in other industrial towns is definitely inadequate in comparison. Look at what the Cornings did for Corning New York, the Carnegie or Heinz families in Pittsburgh, or the Kohlers in Wisconsin. Legacies of well-funded institutions left by these families which have made the communities more desirable - not just while they are alive but for future generations.

A park, and I hate to be too negative, is one of the cheapest things you can donate or build. Are they nice additions? Sure. But they don't have nearly the broader economic or social impact of art galleries, museums, hospitals, and universities - which many other families of similar means have given back to their communities.

Where is the KC Irving Hospital for Sick Children? The JD Irving Museum for Contemporary Art? The Irving Science Centre? Or the Irving Forestry Innovation Centre at UNBSJ?

That is what I am getting at.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

I'm not an Irving hater but they're sitting on acres of prime development land for what seem like weird internal ideological reasons about not wanting adjoining property owners. What's the point of all this? How does it benefit them?

Relatedly, why did the city choose to push back on the one justifiable lot they wanted to create, at the Centracare site, so strongly?

No idea how this stuff makes their urban office presence more appealing. Presumably they'll plant grass and sit on it for decades then rezone for surface lots. I predict the same fate for the King Sq N/Sydney lot.

This is very much how I feel about it. Whatever ambivalence exists in our community around the family or the companies is beside the point that they have a very bizarre view on urbanity that seems to want to shoehorn a suburban-style or city-in-the-park[ing] approach into an existing and well-functioning street grid. It's essentially devolution of density and urban form, and makes the city they operate within less appealing to residents or newcomers, and I just cannot wrap my head around why, nor do they ever come out with any statements as to why they feel that way.

[gtsoc]

I noticed the new Boardwalk stage has now been retrofitted with concert quality speakers. It is my understanding that because the city did not include concert quality speakers in the original build, they were unable to have "professional" concerts take place ther (vs someone local up there playing for the restaurants).

[bingun]

Originally Posted by gtsoc

I noticed the new Boardwalk stage has now been retrofitted with concert quality speakers. It is my understanding that because the city did not include concert quality speakers in the original build, they were unable to have "professional" concerts take place ther (vs someone local up there playing for the restaurants).

That's right, they spent some additional money this year to upgrade the equipment.

I did notice over the summer that there were consistent minor performances taking place, which was nice to see, but other than one or two occasions, there was nothing larger. From memory, I think the weather was bad on the day they had the main event with alcohol being served and security.

Hopefully, they can plan larger events next year.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by gtsoc

I noticed the new Boardwalk stage has now been retrofitted with concert quality speakers. It is my understanding that because the city did not include concert quality speakers in the original build, they were unable to have "professional" concerts take place ther (vs someone local up there playing for the restaurants).

The stage is too small for some acts to be interested, I believe someone is looking into options to expand it.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

The stage is too small for some acts to be interested, I believe someone is looking into options to expand it.

Especially when they have the 506 container village stage setup for their summer shows. And it's easier to ticket those events with the closed off areas.
To have a "ticketed" show on the boardwalk, you'd need to add some panels I guess?

[irisheyes]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Where is the KC Irving Hospital for Sick Children? The JD Irving Museum for Contemporary Art? The Irving Science Centre? Or the Irving Forestry Innovation Centre at UNBSJ?

That is what I am getting at.

Even Andrew Carnegie built a library in Saint John and he didn't even live here.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Martin Max Expands Presence in Saint John. Relocating to Brunswick Square.

https://sjcommercialre.com/2025/10/28/ma...int-john-relocating-to-brunswick-square/



The pedway level of Brunswick Square is leasing up nicely: https://sjcommercialre.com/brunswick-square-shopping-centre/

Martin Max was open as of yesterday.

I also saw contractors working on the old Billy's Seafood. Hard to tell how much progress has been made elsewhere in the city market.

[irisheyes]

If the owners of Brunswick Square are serious about filling its vacant stalls and bringing it back to life they could start by renovating the exterior cladding. I have no qualms with the office tower but the mall/hotel is a brutalist box no one wants to be around.

Look to the Bay Centre in Victoria, BC as inspiration perhaps. Even if they added panels with embossed red brick like at 91 King it would go a long way. You could even add black, ribbed metal steeples on each corner of the roof. Get creative.

[Pugsley]

Apparently the Saint John Hilton is no-more. Innvest plans to remove the Hilton brand and go "independent", which is never a good sign. Shame, given this was one of the last "Hilton International" hotels built.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Apparently the Saint John Hilton is no-more. Innvest plans to remove the Hilton brand and go "independent", which is never a good sign. Shame, given this was one of the last "Hilton International" hotels built.

being discussed over in the retail thread.

As I mentioned there I wonder if Hilton declined to renew? I had family stay there about a year or so ago and they found it pretty shabby. AI says the last refresh was 2013 so at 13 years old I can believe the rooms are probably getting pretty shopworn.

I recall years ago when Fairmont removed their name from the Algonquin because it no longer met their standards and the province (owners at the time) refused to upgrade it.

https://www.unifor2002.org/News-Room/Hilton/Hilton-Saint-John-Innvest-Hotel-group-parts-ways