Canadian Airport Thread II

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by egb

1. DTW is the most interesting addition as it shows that WestJet is really leaning into trying to feed traffic through YHZ. YHZ-DTW daily makes little sense on its own.
2. On some level it would make sense for WestJet to add more YYZ/YUL/YOW capacity to feed all these Europe flights but I think the more likely outcome is more summer flights from Western Canada.
3. From an amenity point of view, YHZ will really need a second lounge over the long-term.
4. If there is enough sustained demand from this Euro Hub strategy then the airport will likely have to expand (as planned) down the road. The heavy seasonality of YHZ (which is just going to get more pronounced) will make the economics of that more challenging as they will have to expand expensive infrastructure to meet a relatively short-term peak.
5. Curious if there are other secondary US city airports that would make good pairings for YHZ a la Detroit.

Perhaps Atlanta and Phoenix? Atlanta is the busiest airport in the US, so it's certainly not a secondary airport, but it would be quite beneficial to have that connection. Phoenix, on the other hand, could be quite a desirable winter vacation destination for Haligonians once relations improve between the US and Canada.

[VancityAvgeek33]

Would have been nice to see Westjet additions from yvr.

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by egb

1. DTW is the most interesting addition as it shows that WestJet is really leaning into trying to feed traffic through YHZ. YHZ-DTW daily makes little sense on its own.
2. On some level it would make sense for WestJet to add more YYZ/YUL/YOW capacity to feed all these Europe flights but I think the more likely outcome is more summer flights from Western Canada.
3. From an amenity point of view, YHZ will really need a second lounge over the long-term.
4. If there is enough sustained demand from this Euro Hub strategy then the airport will likely have to expand (as planned) down the road. The heavy seasonality of YHZ (which is just going to get more pronounced) will make the economics of that more challenging as they will have to expand expensive infrastructure to meet a relatively short-term peak.
5. Curious if there are other secondary US city airports that would make good pairings for YHZ a la Detroit.

DTW is a DL hub. It can used for both inbound connections and connectors via DTW to other US destinations.

Originally Posted by VancityAvgeek33

Would have been nice to see Westjet additions from yvr.

There technically were, they added YYF.

There's more announcements to come in January.

[nname]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

DTW is a DL hub. It can used for both inbound connections and connectors via DTW to other US destinations.



There technically were, they added YYF.

There's more announcements to come in January.

Also, YVR-YHZ is increased to daily mid-May to late-Sept, and 4x weekly in other period starting late April to feed into the new routes.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by egb

1. DTW is the most interesting addition as it shows that WestJet is really leaning into trying to feed traffic through YHZ. YHZ-DTW daily makes little sense on its own.
2. On some level it would make sense for WestJet to add more YYZ/YUL/YOW capacity to feed all these Europe flights but I think the more likely outcome is more summer flights from Western Canada.
3. From an amenity point of view, YHZ will really need a second lounge over the long-term.
4. If there is enough sustained demand from this Euro Hub strategy then the airport will likely have to expand (as planned) down the road. The heavy seasonality of YHZ (which is just going to get more pronounced) will make the economics of that more challenging as they will have to expand expensive infrastructure to meet a relatively short-term peak.
5. Curious if there are other secondary US city airports that would make good pairings for YHZ a la Detroit.

It might be 9 European destinations, but none of them are daily, and most are 4x weekly or less. During the course of a week, it averages out to ~5 departing flights a day, on 737s. That’s not even 1000 seats. It’s 2 AC high density 77Ws worth of departing passengers per day, on average. That’s it.

You dont need a ton of connections to fill these flights.

Also, let’s be realistic here. WS now knows they should have ordered more 787s. These YHZ Euro runs are just a stopgap. As soon as they get their hands on more 787s, some of those European slots are transferring over to YYZ or YYC in a heartbeat. Especially AMS and LIS, but most likely BCN, CPH and CDG as well.

If I was YHZ, I’d be cautious, and wouldn’t overbuild when you don’t know what the future holds.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

It might be 9 European destinations, but none of them are daily, and most are 4x weekly or less. During the course of a week, it averages out to ~5 departing flights a day, on 737s. That’s not even 1000 seats. It’s 2 AC high density 77Ws worth of departing passengers per day, on average. That’s it.

You dont need a ton of connections to fill these flights.

Also, let’s be realistic here. WS now knows they should have ordered more 787s. These YHZ Euro runs are just a stopgap. As soon as they get their hands on more 787s, some of those European slots are transferring over to YYZ or YYC in a heartbeat. Especially AMS and LIS, but most likely BCN, CPH and CDG as well.

If I was YHZ, I’d be cautious, and wouldn’t overbuild when you don’t know what the future holds.

There are long lines for 787s. 1000 seats a day seems like a lot for Halifax without connections.

I'm in the don't overbuild camp for sure. Better to be a bit cramped with lower costs. But the AC lounge in YHZ is attrocious and needs an expansion.

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by egb

2. On some level it would make sense for WestJet to add more YYZ/YUL/YOW capacity to feed all these Europe flights but I think the more likely outcome is more summer flights from Western Canada.

I'm always curious how many people have been up until now connecting from western Canada (Winnipeg and west) to Europe via YHZ and how many WestJet thinks will continue to do so. I agree that people living in Ontario and east would find it easier connecting via YHZ based on total flight times.

As an example,
YEG-YHZ-CPH-YHZ-YEG is 11:25 / 13:00 in flight time
YEG-YYZ-CPH-YYZ-YEG is 11:15 / 12:17 in flight time
YEG-AMS-CPH-AMS-YEG is 9:55 / 10:15 in flight time
The flight times are closer than I thought but I would prefer to fly 330/777/789 aircraft for the majority of that long of a journey over a 737.

Obviously YYC and YVR have way more options than YEG so there would have to be a decent price difference for me and family (and probably others from YYC and YVR) to fly via YHZ. But if you're flying from YXE, YQR or YWG, you have to connect somewhere so YHZ might be a good alternative.

[thenoflyzone]

^ it's not just the widebody aspect. Yes, that's a big plus for a lot of people, but there are also other things people fail to consider when choosing based on price alone:

Since most of these new flights are 4x weekly (and at peak season only), if by any chance you end up missing your connection in Halifax, you might be staying in YHZ for 2 days, or more, if the subsequent flights are full. Worse still, you might end up backtracking to YYZ, in order to catch the first available flight to Europe. None of that is too appealing. Airports like YYZ or YUL have daily flights to most of these places, sometimes double daily. If you miss your connection, there are alternatives. Especially when competing airlines often fly the same route, and Canadian passenger protection rights oblige your airline to book you on a competing airline (if need be) after a certain timeframe and/or missed connection.

These are all things to consider when booking a connection. Unfortunately. the average flying public doesn't know these things. A lot of us here do.

Halifax is also prone to bad weather (fog, etc). So thread with caution when booking a connection via YHZ to Europe, is my advise.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Also, let’s be realistic here. WS now knows they should have ordered more 787s. These YHZ Euro runs are just a stopgap. As soon as they get their hands on more 787s, some of those European slots are transferring over to YYZ or YYC in a heartbeat. Especially AMS and LIS, but most likely BCN, CPH and CDG as well.

If I was YHZ, I’d be cautious, and wouldn’t overbuild when you don’t know what the future holds.

Maybe? As a Haligonian already planning to use these Euro routes beginning next year, I hope that's not the case! I imagine the 787s will be divided between Vancouver, Calgary and Toronto, and will be aimed at both European and Asian routes, so all in all it's not a huge number of new planes, when considering the number of destinations and to service.

In any case, the seven 787s they just ordered aren't even going to start being delivered for about four years, if things stay on schedule. Hopefully the YHZ-Euro routes prove their worth in that time.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Why is Hamilton listed as seasonal? It's year round!

Clearly an error on the map. Why not contact the HIAA to let them know?

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Also, let’s be realistic here. WS now knows they should have ordered more 787s. These YHZ Euro runs are just a stopgap. As soon as they get their hands on more 787s, some of those European slots are transferring over to YYZ or YYC in a heartbeat. Especially AMS and LIS, but most likely BCN, CPH and CDG as well.
.

I suspect MAD/CPH and maybe LIS will move over to YYC once the 787s arrive. AMS is less likely as the slots they have are currently destination / aircraft specific.

LIS also will stay at YHZ as long as it has to be a daytime flight, as those slots would be awful to use from the west.

As of today, WS isn't expecting its next 787 until 2031, so unless they manage to get a spot earlier, they are looking at 6 years before any of this can happen.

[someone123]

I don't have strong feelings about this but my experience is many years of flights being added to YHZ which people on SSP said were not going to happen or should go to some other airport or are only temporary because of some reason.

Halifax gets around 4 million passengers a year, consistently just behind Winnipeg or Ottawa. Due to geography it makes a bit more sense to have flights to places like Europe in YHZ than in those other airports with roughly comparable traffic.

It's nice that there are plentiful connections and it's interesting that you can fly direct from Halifax to Madrid or Reykjavik. If I still lived there, I would take advantage of those flights, and I wish we had them at YVR. We do have flights to Asia but due to geography they're very long even if direct.

[Nouvellecosse]

The threat of fog at YHZ is also overstated. Yes it's possible but the current airport was specifically moved over 25km inland from the coast (and 30km from downtown) specifically to address such issues. Since most fog occurs near the coast, YHZ isn't really any more vulnerable to weather than other airports across the country.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't have strong feelings about this but my experience is many years of flights being added to YHZ which people on SSP said were not going to happen or should go to some other airport or are only temporary because of some reason.

Halifax gets around 4 million passengers a year, consistently just behind Winnipeg or Ottawa. Due to geography it makes a bit more sense to have flights to places like Europe in YHZ than in those other airports with roughly comparable traffic.

It's nice that there are plentiful connections and it's interesting that you can fly direct from Halifax to Madrid or Reykjavik. If I still lived there, I would take advantage of those flights, and I wish we had them at YVR. We do have flights to Asia but due to geography they're very long even if direct.

Indeed, and YHZ is the air hub for a 3-million person region (compared to AB at 5 million). I absolutely expect WJ to launch more direct flights to Europe from Calgary once it has planes capable of doing so. Does that necessarily mean it will yank them all from the YHZ? Can't say, though I hope not. Realistically, they'll lose all of the east coast business to AC, since no one east of Quebec is going to fly through Calgary to go to Europe.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

There are long lines for 787s. 1000 seats a day seems like a lot for Halifax without connections.

I'm in the don't overbuild camp for sure. Better to be a bit cramped with lower costs. But the AC lounge in YHZ is attrocious and needs an expansion.

It's already happening:
https://halifaxstanfield.ca/while-youre-here/airport-services/air-canada-maple-leaf-lounge/

[YYCguys]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

It's already happening:
https://halifaxstanfield.ca/while-youre-here/airport-services/air-canada-maple-leaf-lounge/

I’m surprised that they didn’t prepare a temporary space in the interim. I wonder what regular users of the lounge think about losing it for 18 months!

[Base]

18 months is a lengthy reno.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

I suspect MAD/CPH and maybe LIS will move over to YYC once the 787s arrive. AMS is less likely as the slots they have are currently destination / aircraft specific.

LIS also will stay at YHZ as long as it has to be a daytime flight, as those slots would be awful to use from the west.

As of today, WS isn't expecting its next 787 until 2031, so unless they manage to get a spot earlier, they are looking at 6 years before any of this can happen.

Why wouldn't WS just add YYC-MAD/CPH while leaving YHZ-MAD/CPH alone? Neither of those airports are slot controlled. By 2031 LIS will be closer to having the new LIS.

[q12]

Photos of the renovated YHZ Maple Leaf lounge:




More large images:

Source:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-canada-aeroplan/2173926-yhz-mll-renovations-closing-oct-1-2025-until-early-2027-a-2.html

[q12]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Also, let’s be realistic here. WS now knows they should have ordered more 787s. These YHZ Euro runs are just a stopgap. As soon as they get their hands on more 787s, some of those European slots are transferring over to YYZ or YYC in a heartbeat. Especially AMS and LIS, but most likely BCN, CPH and CDG as well.

If I was YHZ, I’d be cautious, and wouldn’t overbuild when you don’t know what the future holds.

Even if they ever get more 787s which are more likely to based at YYC, they still have a massive 737 fleet that needs somewhere to fly in the summer months.

Westjet's stated strategy (https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/who-we-are/our-strategy) is a focus on leisure and offering affordability.

YHZ fits their strategy as a launching point for European flights on low cost Narrowbody aircraft. Halifax (Nova Scotia incl. Cape Breton & P.E.I.) are tourism hotspots in the seasonal Summer and fall. Canadians and even Americans and Europeans want to travel to Halifax in the Summer, and Canadians as well as Americans want to travel to Europe as cheap as possible.

With Sunwing now part of Westjet and reduced demand from Canada to the U.S. they have plenty of Narrowbody planes to fly people on Vacation to either Atlantic Canada, Europe (via YHZ) or both.

I mean they wouldn't have expanded their 2026 offering to Europe if summer 2025 wasn't a sucesss at YHZ for Westjet.