The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[irisheyes]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Lantic site sure, but that would be horrendous misuse of port lands which would command huge value on the open market. Either find a marine-related use for the Lower Cove terminal or extend the street grid into it. Something like this maybe? https://imgur.com/a/kvMOvCl

I do like your idea as well. We just need to get Long Wharf developed first lol.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

It was, and yes-- the conditions make market rents, even lower-market, unfeasible. And that's not even addressing the security issues. We are cynically awaiting Common Council's celebrations of their traffic light zones being successfully implemented... which happens to coincide with the annual cold-weather drop in Waterloo's extracurricular activities.

Fortunately, the hills will again be alive with the sound of screaming junkies when the municipal election kicks off.

The plan is still on the docket, but between Carney's new not yet up and running housing org, CMHC's mission being muddled, and ratcheting efficiency/accessibility/affordability requirements, it's a real challenge to nail down a date.



The school is what I was waiting for. Building with adjoining walls poses quite a few challenges, especially around foundations and fire code, but this first build is a test lab. Can we build single-family homes, on <24' lots, around uptown that are...

a) profitable
b) replicable without looking cloned
c) adequately-sized (this one is about 1,700 sf, for example)

There's a serious lack of new single-family construction in the south end. I can count 5 over the last decade, not counting renos/restoration. And there's a huge market!



Phil Massie owns the whole corner. No idea what he would sell it for, but it wouldn't be cheap. Outside my capabilities. Victor Train owns a truly gigantic amount of land in the area too. He might have plans for it, now that the school is underway, but I don't personally know him.

My stuff is blue, Massie red, Train yellow, and the school purple, if you want help visualizing it. My Queen Sq lot will be 4 townhouses, more or less using the previous owner's plans. https://imgur.com/a/tZjX8Lf

When you bought Queen Sq / Charlotte lot, did that include archectural designs, and will you use them? Or build something different?

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

When you bought Queen Sq / Charlotte lot, did that include architectural designs, and will you use them? Or build something different?

We're using the designs with some minor modifications. I was interested to learn that architects technically own their plans, so we didn't 'buy' them per se. But she's very cool with us utilizing them.

Conveniently, thanks to the city's engineering team, we were able to get the water/sewer and driveways put in while Charlotte was being rebuilt. This, plus the lack of adjoining buildings, should take our cost per square foot down quite a bit compared to the Harding St homes.

I wish the city would provide a bit of clarity about the infill grant's future. We were accepted for the Harding homes, and I think the grant program will exist next year. Beyond 2026, though, no idea. I don't believe they particularly want to incentivize owner-occupied townhouses and are going to focus on 'catalytic' projects instead.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Lantic site sure, but that would be horrendous misuse of port lands which would command huge value on the open market. Either find a marine-related use for the Lower Cove terminal or extend the street grid into it. Something like this maybe?

While this would be great to see, that's almost 15 acres of port owned lands given up for residential development. I think we'd need to see major land reclamation projects to the south of the sugar refinery site along with a remediation plans for the sugar refinery site, both biological and structural, before the port and the government of Canada could even consider giving the city that much land for residential development.

While I think the biggest opportunity for port expansion exists out in place like Lorneville and Mispec, there are still some very logical land reclamation and expansion projects to invest in for the inner harbour. The sugar refinery is a bio hazard and just wasting away into the sea, and we have a PM who literally never shuts up about building things, and investing in things like our ports. This site is mentioned more than any other site in the city in the port's 10-15 year land use plan from 2011 which will will hopefully see updated very soon.

Wayne Long "famously" stated that "The time for action is now." regarding his vision for investing in a ferry system to open up Partridge Island to the public. Which he gave up on because of soil contamination. I think we'd all like to see Partridge Island opened to the public, but even though Carney is the most Irish PM in Canadian history, he's much more likely to invest in our port's than our heritage sites. Still, there's a chance Partridge Island could be included as Part of Rockwood Park's bid to become NB's first national Urban Park... but I'll leave that for the Parks and Recreation thread.

Though, as Wayne Long said back in 2016, "the times for studying Partridge Island are over in my books", the same could be said regarding the sugar refinery site and area to the south. We don't need studies to tell us what we already know is there with the sugar refinery site. Instead, we need plans to remediate and seal off the bio contamination, and ambitious engineering plans to build half a km of new sea wall around a the former refinery site and new land reclaimed from the sea to the south.

The premier, our MP, the mayor, and literally any other influential politician or economic leader in NB should be taking Mark Carney up on his big talk to get these sort of big projects built here in Canada's oldest port. While Inner harbour expansion projects are the most logical next steps port expansion, deepwater expansion projects at Lorneville and Mispec offer the biggest long term opportunities for port expansion.

The Port's land use from from 2011 called for around 14 acres to be added to the south of the sugar refinery site through land remediation and land reclamation projects, along with around another 13 acres added across the harbour, filling in the slip and remediating the derelict pier, from page 28:



Interestingly enough, the West Side Modernization project was not outlined in this land use plan from 2011, which added around 25 acres to the West Side Docks.

With major land reclamation and remediation projects, the Port could have around around 23 acres at Lower Cover, and swap 10-12 acres with the city, including an acre or so of reclaimed land around Tin Can Beach with a sea wall.

Perhaps something like this:




Ideally, we will see long term plans for port expansion at Lorneville and Mispec, which could lead to the Port and City coming to deals to swap a larger amount of both Lower Cove and Long Wharf in exchange for hundreds of acres of land out at Lorneville and other viable locations for Port and their partner's operations. Now is the time for out politicians and influential leaders to step up and push for big investments into Canada's fastest growing container people, along with some major investments into the city and people that call the Port City home.

Now is the time to build.

[sailor734]

Has anyone heard anything about buildings 2 and 3 at the old Tipsy Tomato site in Millidgeville? Building one has been finished and occupied since spring. The coin carwash and half of the strip mall across the parking lot from where the Tipsy Tomato was were torn down earlier this year but since then the site has been completely dormant.

[Pugsley]

Hello everyone! After seeing some of the posts here related to re-purposing the south port area into the Uptown, I thought I would pull out some work I did a long time ago for a master-plan for the area. I spent a few hours "dressing it up", but anyhow, here is what I had come up with many moons ago as a revitalized district, known as Southport. Enjoy!

[irisheyes]

Nice overall plan here! I like the continuity from the existing street grid to the water, and you’ve struck a good balance between buildings and green space. Some storm-surge protection with a mix of hard and soft engineering would have to be done, but that’s another advantage of having green spaces there.

The Armouries are here to stay, I’d imagine. There’s a sense of urgency around the poor state of our military that wasn’t there a few years ago.

Side note: I’d love to see the local millionaires and billionaires partner to commission the construction of a seaworthy Marco Polo.

* Would help to see an overlay of the contaminated Lantic lands. Seems like it would limit what can be done there.

[habs33]

Curling’s elite men’s teams will converge on Saint John, N.B., for the 2027 BKT World Men’s Curling Championship, it was announced jointly today by World Curling and Curling Canada.

The championship will be played March 27-April 4 at TD Station in Saint John, and will be the first World Men’s Championship to be played under a new format announced last month that will feature an 18-team field, including the host team from Canada.

https://www.curling.ca/blog/2025/11/12/s...764XsvvH909yz_aem_xmEfZNQaxwbV3dHvLaxUKA

[dhottawa729]

Originally Posted by habs33

Curling’s elite men’s teams will converge on Saint John, N.B., for the 2027 BKT World Men’s Curling Championship, it was announced jointly today by World Curling and Curling Canada.

The championship will be played March 27-April 4 at TD Station in Saint John, and will be the first World Men’s Championship to be played under a new format announced last month that will feature an 18-team field, including the host team from Canada.

https://www.curling.ca/blog/2025/11/12/s...764XsvvH909yz_aem_xmEfZNQaxwbV3dHvLaxUKA

We need more daily flights in and out of YSJ. It’s incredibly inconvenient to visit.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

We need more daily flights in and out of YSJ. It’s incredibly inconvenient to visit.

Better focus on growing the population of Saint John then. Or somehow getting Holt and Carney to go for the Fredericton-Saint John combined airport as a project of national interest.

Doesn't help that YSJ was left out of that recent Atlantic airport program. That was definitely some BS.


While I agree we do need more flights out of YSJ, we also need a much better bus system between the three airports of NB, and eventually, the a return of a passenger train between Saint John and Moncton.

Moreover, maybe we don't just need better bus service between New Brunswick's 3 main airports, but rather, a better bus service between the Maritimes top 6 airports.

Same goes with the continued lack of bus service between Saint John and New England.

It's not like we're not going to stay mad at the Americans forever, and it's not like American tourists don't continue to show an interest in visiting Canada. Yet, we make it incredibly hard for American tourists without a car to get to Saint John, despite sitting on top of 53 million people in the Bos–Wash corridor, many of whom don't have cars.

It's frankly ridiculous that it's been like 30+ years since someone could easily take a bus from Saint John all the way down to Boston or New York, or vice versa.

Carless tourists from New York City and Boston can very easily get all the way to Bangor Maine on a bus, but there's no bus onwards to Saint John.

I think American tourists would have a much bigger interest in visiting Saint John than Bangor, especially since our dollar is 30% lower than theres. Moreover, Saint John does have the ferry to Digby.

If BayFerries and NB/NS got serious about attracting tourists from the US Northeast, there wouldn't just be a bus service between New Brunswick and New England, there would also be a bus service between Digby, Yarmouth, and Halifax, which could actually help fill up all the empty seats on both the Saint John<->Digby and Bar Harbour<->Yarmouth ferries.


A bus between New England and Saint John wouldn't just be good for Saint Johners and good for Saint John tourism, it would be good for Nova Scotia too, as lots of Americans would take the bus to Saint John to take the ferry across the Bay of Fundy then a bus onwards to Halifax and other places in Nova Scotia. The Maritimes is seriously limiting the amount of American tourists that it can attract when we focus almost exclusively on getting American tourists here via cruise ships, airplanes, and their personal vehicles. There's more car-less Americans throughout the Northeast than anywhere else in the US, it's a huge untapped market for tourism, but we need a bus service to New England to tap into it.

[cdnguys]

[irisheyes]

More flights - for sure.

But what we also really need is to restore passenger rail in Saint John. Folks in my family recall taking trains from SJ to Boston, NYC, Montreal, etc.

We know how well connected Saint John is by rail. Yet it's only industry that benefits.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by irisheyes

More flights - for sure.

But what we also really need is to restore passenger rail in Saint John. Folks in my family recall taking trains from SJ to Boston, NYC, Montreal, etc.

We know how well connected Saint John is by rail. Yet it's only industry that benefits.

Rail is a pipedream in the Maritimes. The population density doesn't exist to support it. More importantly the private owners of the rails have no interest or incentive to spend big $$$ to upgrade the tracks to allow modern passenger rail speeds.

Saint John to Halifax would be great if it was under three hours including a stop in Moncton. 6-7 hours?.....not so much.

Population wouldn't support frequency of service to compete with the convenience of driving.

[bingun]

Has anyone driven past the museum in the last few weeks? How are they making out?

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Rail is a pipedream in the Maritimes. The population density doesn't exist to support it. More importantly the private owners of the rails have no interest or incentive to spend big $$$ to upgrade the tracks to allow modern passenger rail speeds.

Saint John to Halifax would be great if it was under three hours including a stop in Moncton. 6-7 hours?.....not so much.

Population wouldn't support frequency of service to compete with the convenience of driving.

Passenger rail would be great but we can barely get it figured out between Canada's biggest population centers, let alone between the some of the smallest CMAs in the country.

Passenger rail between cities also requires serviceable transit within the cities it connects.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by bingun

Has anyone driven past the museum in the last few weeks? How are they making out?

I have family very close by/across the street on Douglas Avenue and was just there yesterday. Work is happening, they are currently excavating quite a bit of depth in the area to the east of the building where the parking lot and adjacent homes had been. There are crews in and out of the building regularly, but no visible demolition of the parts of the building that are being removed/replaced.

The project is definitely behind schedule for a number of logistic and financial reasons, but if you ask anyone in government the province is committed to seeing it through, even despite the setbacks.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I have family very close by/across the street on Douglas Avenue and was just there yesterday. Work is happening, they are currently excavating quite a bit of depth in the area to the east of the building where the parking lot and adjacent homes had been. There are crews in and out of the building regularly, but no visible demolition of the parts of the building that are being removed/replaced.

The project is definitely behind schedule for a number of logistic and financial reasons, but if you ask anyone in government the province is committed to seeing it through, even despite the setbacks.

Opening date now 2028. Probably won’t see significant work until summer 2026. All the hard, unappreciated work has to take place first 🥲

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Opening date now 2028. Probably won’t see significant work until summer 2026. All the hard, unappreciated work has to take place first 🥲

Totally justified, even the move out of the collections was a massive task that took far longer than most people would ever expect given the care and diligence that had to take place along the way.

[bingun]

Envision Saint John updated their dashboard, and I was having a browse through the different statistics today and am really impressed with it. The Real Estate section is probably the most relevant to this forum; some highlights below.

I am still shocked by how much housing prices have risen in Saint John. I am starting to forget how cheap they used to be.

I also found the warehouse vacancy information really interesting, at just over 2% for Saint John. Moncton still dwarfs Saint John in total capacity, but at that low vacancy rate, you would think there would be some interest in new warehouses. I think it will take decades for the office side to recover to healthy levels.

https://www.envisionsaintjohn.com/dashboard

Building Permits & Housing Starts



SFH Prices



Sales & New Listings



Office/Warehouse Vacancy Rates

[cdnguys]

I’m curious about the warehouse inventory - the 3 sheds at Rodney terminal alone are 500,000 sq ft. Must not include port warehousing.