Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Dalreg]

Baseball has a list of places above Montreal on the pecking order.

Portland
Salt Lake City
Charlotte
Austin/San Antonio
Orlando

Montreal needs a stadium in a done deal and an owner willing to sink $5 billion on it and the team is my guess.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I really think a CFL expansion to the maritimes will never work if it's going to be Halifax only.

Well, it's all hypothetical, but I don't know about this logic. Most people view the CFL-ready stadium as the biggest hurdle and you're proposing a plan that requires 2 stadiums in a region with 0.

I wonder how much more excited, really, people in Halifax would be about a rivalry with Moncton. It tends to be more one-sided with people in other towns around the region wishing to beat Halifax as "underdogs". Traditionally, rightly or wrongly, NB doesn't get a ton of attention in Halifax (maybe not much more than PEI, which is not a rival place but a spot people visit for fun). In the CPL, the Halifax team has one of the highest levels of attendance and there is no NB team.

I even think the "you have to call it Atlantic ___" folks tend to overemphasize the role the rest of the region would have. Most ticket sales will be local, and the local catchment area of a stadium in Halifax (where people can get to a game after work for example) is something like 700,000 people and amounts to a very substantial portion of the economy in the region. It was a bit different in the 70's and earlier but after this last spurt of growth especially, NS is a lot like most other provinces in terms of concentration and urbanization.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by someone123

I even think the "you have to call it Atlantic ___" folks tend to overemphasize the role the rest of the region would have. Most ticket sales will be local, and the local catchment area of a stadium in Halifax (where people can get to a game after work for example) is something like 700,000 people and amounts to a very substantial portion of the economy in the region. It was a bit different in the 70's and earlier but after this last spurt of growth especially, NS is a lot like most other provinces in terms of concentration and urbanization.

Agreed with the first two paragraphs and most of the third. I don't think you can underestimate the role other areas would play if this came to pass. While I don't think Moncton could support a team, there are seven high schools in the Moncton area playing football (many on artificial turf), there's a fan base there that could develop for a "local" CFL Halifax team (2 hours 30 min drive at the most). I would hope that you would be right that the bulk of fans would be from NS but don't discount the support that would come from NB especially the Monkeytown area.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

To be clear, I specifically said I don't think a maritime expansion will work for the CFL, unless Halifax has a natural rival in the maritimes. Moncton is the logical location for a second CFL team in the maritimes, and in terms of expanding and upgrading their stadium, they're a lot closer to having a 25,000+ person stadium than Halifax is.

The greatest rivalry in the CFL (Saskatchewan vs Winnipeg) is the rivalry with the furthest distance between the two teams in the league, and it's between two of the most similar provinces in the country. If Regina never had a team, almost no one would travel to Winnipeg for CFL games, or vice versa. Although without the CFL rivalry, there might be less animosity between Saskatchewanians and Manitobans

I think it's a huge reach (Like Elly is suggesting) to expect many if any people from PEI, NB, or Newfoundland and Labrador to travel to Halifax to support a CFL team "as their own", simply because they're called the Atlantic Schooners and not the Halifax Schooners.

They could make the Saint John->Digby ferry free, and I still don't think many Saint Johners would go watch (let alone support) the Halifax CFL team simply because they called them "the Atlantic Schooners".

However, I could see many Saint Johners travelling to Moncton to support a New Brunswick CFL team molded in the image of the Saskatchewan Roughriders and sponsored by Alpine Lager. I imagine there'd also be many proud New Brunswickers from Fredericton and elsewhere that would support an NB branded CFL team in Moncton, our largest city. I think many New Brunswickers from Moncton, Saint John, and Fredericton would travel to Halifax to support the New Brunswick CFL team in the Maritimes version of "the Banjo Bowl", and maybe many Haligonians would travel to Moncton.

Also, Schooner is a Nova Scotian beer, and a Nova Scotian symbol. Beer matters a lot when it comes to the CFL, or at least it does in Saskatchewan and Winnipeg. The Riders have Old Style Pilsner and the Bombers have Labatt Blue.







Rider fans at the first Banjo Bowl in Winnipeg


I've always found Alpine in New Brunswick to be especially analogous to Pilsner in Saskatchewan, as you find merch and advertising for this beer absolutely everywhere in both provinces, and they are beers that are especially associated with pride in their province (and football team).










After taking a trip to New Brunswick to see my grandparents and see their province as a teenager, I soon came to feel like New Brunswick was like a smaller, coastal Saskatchewan, and the similarities with Alpine and Pilsner beer advertising plastered everywhere or people buying/ collecting the merchandise was a big part of why I felt the two provinces were similar, along with the demographics of the province between multiple cities, not just one like Winnipeg or Halifax.

I think New Brunswick, not Nova Scotia has the best chance in Canada to successfully emulate the secret sauce that makes the Saskatchewan Roughriders successful as a province wide CFL team... and Halifax could be the Winnipeg of the East in the CFL.

Halifax/Nova Scotia is analogous to Winnipeg/Manitoba, as the primate city and capital of each province. Whereas New Brunswick is more analogous to Saskatchewan, without a primate city, and who's biggest city is not the capital.


In the Saskatchewan vs Winnipeg rivalry (the greatest rivalry in the CFL), there's a lot more Sask fans that make the trip to Winnipeg than Winnipeg fans that make the trip to Regina. I'd imagine it would be a similar situation between a New Brunswick team and a Halifax team, where more NB fans would actually travel to support their team than vice versa. Victoria just makes sense, since the CFL is much more popular in Western Canada than Eastern Canada, and Victoria is the largest CMA in Western Canada without a CFL team.

What makes the CFL so great is the regional rivalries. I've taken the liberty to map it out, and think adding teams in Victoria, Moncton, and Halifax would be a great way to even out the two conferences for a league of 12.



12 teams, 6 natural rivalries


I'm not sure if Quebec City has any interest in a CFL team, but I could see adding a team there along with one more in Western Canada working for a league of 14.

The CFL should chill out a bit too with their super strict standards for stadium quality and minimum seating capacities. It's a league of marginal popularity, and they shouldn't make the bar for expansion teams so high if they actually want to grow their league.

One good thing the CFL has going for them in terms of expansion and getting governments to support funding for stadiums, is the rising popularity of soccer. The rising popularity of soccer could make governments much more willing to fund the construction of new stadiums or expanding existing ones. There should be professional soccer teams at every CFL stadium in Canada.

Canada would be better off with 12 quality stadiums from the West Coast to the East Coast. Having a dozen quality stadiums across the country could enable Canada to host the Copa America one day, and make both types of professional football in Canada much more interesting. ⚽️🏟🏈

[elly63]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I think it's a huge reach (Like Elly is suggesting) to expect many if any people from PEI, NB, or Newfoundland and Labrador to travel to Halifax to support a CFL team "as their own", simply because they're called the Atlantic Schooners and not the Halifax Schooners.

Why would Halifax want to limit the scope of their marketing when they would be the only Maritime team? The Atlantic Schooner name has been around almost 50 years and there has been no large groundswell to be called just Halifax.

The BC Lions could be the Vancouver Lions but they aren't and that was a focus for Amar Doman to successfully renew and expand their marketing to the other parts of the province.

Whether it's called Halifax or Atlantic it's going to be the only Maritime based CFL team in our lifetime. As I have said previously people in southern NB have a history of going there early in life (usually for university)

As for a team in NB I didn't know people in SJ had such an affability for Moncton because from my years there they think the best thing about Saint John is leaving it

[someone123]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Moncton is the logical location for a second CFL team in the maritimes, and in terms of expanding and upgrading their stadium, they're a lot closer to having a 25,000+ person stadium than Halifax is.

Isn't Moncton's existing stadium in a suburban location with a track?

My point about naming isn't so much about the CFL dynamics as the demographics and economics of the region. Halifax probably gets more visitors from Toronto or Calgary than Newfoundland or Saint John, and NS is a majority of the population of the Maritimes. Some of it will be about media rather than ticket sales and I wonder how much Halifax + Moncton vs just Halifax really matters there.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by someone123

Isn't Moncton's existing stadium in a suburban location with a track?

I wouldn't say suburban, it's on the university campus, and it does have a track.

• Video Link

[elly63]

CFL open to expansion into Eastern Canada, Cohon says
Moncton may need $100M in stadium upgrades for expansion, CFL commissioner says
CBC News February 27, 2013

The Canadian Football League is planning a return to Moncton for another game and is remaining open to expansion into Eastern Canada, according to the league’s commissioner.

Mark Cohon said in an interview with CBC News on Wednesday the CFL’s focus for the next year is on bringing football back to Ottawa.

But he said adding a game in Moncton is still a viable option the league is considering.

"We’re trying — the schedule will probably be out next week — we are going to try to see if we can do another game in Moncton to test that market," he said.

The CFL has held two regular season games in Moncton, but the league took a pass on its trip to Atlantic Canada in 2012. The CFL was focused on the events surrounding the 100th Grey Cup.

The first CFL game in Moncton was sold out, but the city faced some criticism after only 97 per cent of the University of Moncton stadium’s 21,000 seats were sold for the second game in 2011.

The University of Moncton opened a $20-million stadium in 2010 that hosted the IAAF world junior track championships.

The Moncton stadium will also be one of the Canadian stadiums that will hold games during the FIFA Women’s World Cup in 2015.

Cohon said any of the markets that are being considered for future CFL expansion would need a suitable stadium, even Moncton.

"We really want to make sure all of our teams are successful first, including Ottawa, and then if you look at three markets, whether that is Halifax, Moncton or maybe Quebec City, all of them are major stadium projects," he said.

"Moncton has a small stadium that you’d probably have to spend $100 million to retrofit it to CFL standards. So you are talking about a huge undertaking."

Cohon is attending the CFL’s annual winter meetings this week in Regina, which will play host to the 2013 Grey Cup.

The commissioner did have some advice for any groups interested in owning a CFL franchise in Eastern Canada.

Cohon said in 2010 an expansion fee for a franchise in Atlantic Canada would be more than $7 million.

On Wednesday, he said the Saskatchewan Roughriders are an ideal franchise to model future teams after.

"The one thing that I’ve learned in this job, which is interesting and I think the Roughriders are a great example of it, community-owned teams really are successful, they get behind it, they feel a sense of ownership. If we were going to consider a team in Atlantic Canada, I would like to look at that model as well," he said.

[elly63]

Moncton stadium in CFL mode (tracks should be a non starter in all stadium discussion)

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by elly63

Moncton stadium in CFL mode (tracks should be a non starter in all stadium discussion)

Re: that article from 2013, I don’t think Moncton‘s stadium would require $100 million in retrofits to host a team (were it to ever happen, which I doubt). Ambrosie clearly walked back the League’s expectations for stadiums a few years ago and indicated they would be open to stadiums with a mix of permanent and temporary seating. That’s an absolute must if the League wants to expand anywhere.

That said, given the pending changes to the size of the field, that endzone seating would need to be placed square on top of the track to be close to the end zone. I wonder if the university would be agreeable to that or if it would interfere with its ability to use the stadium for athletics.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Ambrosie clearly walked back the League’s expectations for stadiums a few years ago and indicated they would be open to stadiums with a mix of permanent and temporary seating. That’s an absolute must if the League wants to expand anywhere.

The, erm, goalposts really moved. They pushed for grandiose plans around the 2000's and 2010's in Halifax. The municipality and province did offer funding but I think the dynamic soured public opinion somewhat. If the CFL and promoters had been strategic and argued more obliquely that Halifax should have a public, expandable 20,000 seat stadium as an amenity for the city, and they were clear about some basic requirements that would make it CFL-ready, I think the city could have already had a team.

HRM is much larger than Moncton or much larger than, say, the City of Regina back when they paid for the stadium there. It has a population a little over 500k now just in the municipality while Moncton is 80k. The operating budget is $1.3B now and capital budget $300M, basically a CFL stadium every year (although of course many different capital expenses must be paid for).

[EpicPonyTime]

I wouldn’t say the CFL’s pre-Covid proposal was grandiose, though it was an optics issue for them to initially propose a $180 million stadium and then continuously revise once it was clear no one was biting. They ultimately proposed a $110 million bare-bones grandstand with temporary seating on the other side of the field, which is effectively what Ambrosie was suggesting. That’s roughly comparable to the $116-122 million cost to redevelop the Wanderers Grounds that is presently being discussed (inclusive of stadium + other amenities). I don’t know if the CFL’s price tag included the cost of the surrounding infrastructure at Shannon Park.

If anything, the CFL’s proposal was fatally uninspiring. I recall the response effectively being “$110 million for that?” You are right that, had the League framed the conversation in a different manner they likely would have had a better response. It simply was the wrong proposal at the wrong time. IMO a temporary facility (akin to Empire Field) with prospects for renovations would have been more appealing.

It’s somewhat frustrating to see the Wanderers succeed where the CFL failed in this regard, but their proposal is what the CFL’s should have been from the start. Obviously there’s some elements inherently in the Wanderers’ favour that the CFL couldn’t do anything about, like location, but hopefully next time the League pursues expansion the Schooners proposal is used as an example of what not to do.

[elly63]

Let's not use that past ownership group as any type of gauge for whomever or whatever might be to come. It's obvious I'm a big CFL booster and drink the Kool Aid but I don't drink all the Kool Aid. I had plenty to say about that group back in the day. I always got the impression they were underfunded and as I said I'm glad it fell through to avoid the embarrassment of having a team fail later.

I don't think Halifax was ever seriously considering anywhere near a 20k stadium which in modern CFL economics night be all that is needed. There was a lot of (in my mind) meaningless talk and articles but really how close did it come to fruition?

“The CFL is changing and I think that people are recognizing that. We don’t need a bigger stadium. We used to think that once you fill a 20,000-seat stadium that now you’ve gotta go to 25,000 or 30,000. That’s not true anymore. I think that having a 20-something thousand (seat) stadium is plenty. I think that where we need to look to reinvest and add to our offerings for our fan base and attract a new fan base is hospitality, party areas, and activation areas where people can come to the game and there’s a party going on,” said Weightman.

Let's face it with or without the CFL, Halifax hasn't come near anything remotely close to Moncton and I think it's because they lack a visionary and go getter like Moncton had at that time.

Also let's not put this all on the CFL, Moncton didn't build that stadium to get a CFL team and they went out and hustled to get the event to get the ball rolling. What is Halifax doing.

It may be fun to speculate but until a deep pocketed owner or group comes forward the point is kinda moot unless they want to give big money to the Wanderers.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

It’s somewhat frustrating to see the Wanderers succeed where the CFL failed in this regard, but their proposal is what the CFL’s should have been from the start. Obviously there’s some elements inherently in the Wanderers’ favour that the CFL couldn’t do anything about, like location, but hopefully next time the League pursues expansion the Schooners proposal is used as an example of what not to do.

I always have trouble with the concept that a team is successful when they can fill a small building vs another that is seen as failing by drawing three times as many fans in a half empty venue. That's optics.

TFC used to sell out BMO at 18k and that's how the story was sold (sellout) but the Argos would have 25-30k at the SkyDome and were perceived to be failing.

Let's keep the Wanderers success in reality

[elly63]

The never before and after





There was something fishy about this as Gensler supposedly did the design for the first stadium which is pretty much a copy of an HOK stadium in San Jose (PayPal Park) formerly Avaya

[someone123]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I wouldn’t say the CFL’s pre-Covid proposal was grandiose, though it was an optics issue for them to initially propose a $180 million stadium and then continuously revise once it was clear no one was biting.

If you adjust for inflation and the fiscal capacity of the municipality and province, a $100-200M stadium budget circa 2010 is probably more like $200-400M today. The municipal budget has almost doubled.

The new ~$120M Wanderers project is like contemplating a $60M project back then; it's more or less in the realm of semi-regular capital expenditures today. Above this level, there is likely to be more "sticker shock".

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by elly63

I always have trouble with the concept that a team is successful when they can fill a small building vs another that is seen as failing by drawing three times as many fans in a half empty venue. That's optics.

TFC used to sell out BMO at 18k and that's how the story was sold (sellout) but the Argos would have 25-30k at the SkyDome and were perceived to be failing.

Let's keep the Wanderers success in reality

We aren’t talking about their relative success as a product, though. We’re talking about the success of their pitches for new facilities. It’s a reality that the Wanderers have done a much better job making a case for a new stadium than the Schooners ever did.

[ericmacm]

New renderings have been released for Surrey’s new 10,000-seat arena, to be located in Surrey City Centre. The proposed development is to include a hotel and conference centre. Looks great and nice to see another mid-size arena being planned.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

We aren’t talking about their relative success as a product, though. We’re talking about the success of their pitches for new facilities. It’s a reality that the Wanderers have done a much better job making a case for a new stadium than the Schooners ever did.

What successes, they don't have anything and this has been going on for years.

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

New renderings have been released for Surrey’s new 10,000-seat arena, to be located in Surrey City Centre. The proposed development is to include a hotel and conference centre. Looks great and nice to see another mid-size arena being planned.

This is built where the current BC Lions training facility is. They have been looking at moving to a new updated facility, I wonder if this helps accelerate that? I think a top notch facility for practice and training goes a long way to the overall perception of the team with players (and potential free agents) and Amar Doman has been pushing for this so I think the Lions will do their part to make this happen. As far as a 10K arena in Surrey, its nice but they don't even have a full time tenant, wonder if the Vancouver Giants or Abby Canucks would move here?