Regional Amalgamation in New Brunswick

[thefishingnut]

IMO there should be an option for "Forget amalgamation, there are bigger issues to deal with"

[josh_cat_eyes]

I think let’s start with Rothesay & Quispamsis amalgamating. As for the idea that Saint John is justified to be enormous because HRM is enormous. That’s ridiculous, Halifax shouldn’t even be that big. No city should be that big and include that much rural area!

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

I think let’s start with Rothesay & Quispamsis amalgamating. As for the idea that Saint John is justified to be enormous because HRM is enormous. That’s ridiculous, Halifax shouldn’t even be that big. No city should be that big and include that much rural area!

Only amalgamating Rothesay and Quispamsis together would be some seriously low hanging fruit, and really wouldn't change much. Also amalgamating to become a "town" with over 30,000 people would be even more ridiculous than the situation at the moment, where Rothesay and Quispamsis are suburbs or bedroom communities of Saint John that are masquerading as towns of their own.

It's not Rothesay or Quispamsis that have systemic issues of economic inequality and disparities between their communities. It's Saint John that has the issue with the KV suburbs and other "towns by the bay" not paying their fair share towards a regional budget. The whole point of amalgamating is to bring about fairness and representation in the entire region by creating a municipality with a single budget, that funds multiple, distinct communities within the Regional Municipality.

In the Halifax Regional Municipality, the city's borders are actually pretty small, I think even smaller than Saint John's actually, with far less rural areas. It's the Halifax Regional Municipality that is geographically huge, not the city of Halifax.




The city of Saint John's borders could actually shrink after amalgamation, while the overarching regional municipality's borders could cover close to the entirety of the CMA.

No city in Canada should have outlying suburbs composing close to 50% of the CMA's population that aren't funding close to 50% of a regional budget. However, that's exactly what is happening here in the Saint John Region... not only are the "towns by the bay" not funding their fair share of the a regional budget, their residents have embedded themselves into positions of power and influence within the region and even within Saint John City Hall itself.

All cities have suburbs, but here in the Saint John Region, the suburbs have a city. I'd like to think it's possible for this reality to change one day.

I see regional amalgamation as the best long term solution for solving systemic regional issues, and the best solution for bringing about greater cooperation between the city and surrounding communities.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

I took a stab at regional amalgamations in the three NB CMA's.





There are models for amalgamation that would allow all of these underlying communities to retain autonomy and their own identity while being part of a large regional municipality. Such a model would be the only way for amalgamation to ever work in a region like Moncton with its unique linguistic divisions. Some might even say such a model is the only way amalgamation could ever work in the Saint John Region either, since none of the bedroom communities wanted to be amalgamated with Saint John in the 1990's when the McKenna government attempted and wasted a decade of political capital on an issue they should have had the courage to follow through with.


Our CMA's need more room to grow industry and manufacturing capabilities in a more widespread, responsible manner, if New Brunswick wants to compete in the global economy. There are manufacturing opportunities that exist now with AI that have never existed before in human history, which are only going to get more advanced, and this will open up room for growth in manufacturing that this region hasn't had the population to support since the turn of the century, because it won't be population dependent.

We could see cars and other high value added products being manufactured right at Port Saint John or other industrial parks in NB in one of the three CMAs that could exported on a ship, or loaded on a train.

Not only could large scale regional amalgamation could help Greater Moncton become a coastal CMA and grow a cruise industry, it could also be a huge opportunity for coastal real estate development, especially if Quebecers continue to see the Maritimes as the more desirable destination over New England. Moreover, we must make New Brunswick a more desirable location to top skilled immigrants from around the world, especially Francophone immigrants. Moncton attracts a lot of top skilled Francophone students from around the world, but it loses a great number of them to Montreal and elsewhere in La Belle Province. Making NB a more desirable destination to international immigrants means making it a more desirable place to New Brunswickers too, at least of the urban variety.

So many New Brunswickers try to point the blame at immigrants for the current cost of living crisis, but really, the housing crisis is highly solvable, and not the fault of immigrants. New Brunswick has all kinds of room to build all kinds of housing beside some incredibly beautiful locations, all within a decent commuting distance of a city centre. I see regional amalgamations as a way to try and promote both urban and suburban growth, with the main goal of increasing levels of economic development, New Brunswick's time old problem.

In general, I think New Brunswick has a huge opportunity to develop high value, high satisfaction coastal real estate, because unlike most other population centres in Canada, most of New Brunswick is coastal or near the ocean. An amalgamated and expanded Moncton Region could be a catalytic solution for long term growth and a much more robust tourism industry. Much the same, an expanded Greater Saint John could have develop a coastline with more oceanfront and ocean view real estate.

Our NB cities could all use more room to grow and expand industrial and commercial developments, along with future residential developments, agricultural developments, parks and recreational developments, infrastructural and utility developments etc, etc.

We probably don't want to follow in the exact same fashion as the Halifax amalgamation, when we can do something better here in NB that creates regional municipalities without destroying individual communities, like happened with the creation HRM. We can do amalgamation better in NB, and like communities retain their identities. Riverview's town council could stay English only, as could French communities in the northern reaches of an expanded Greater Moncton.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Fat chance the acadians will ever let Shediac & Dieppe become part of a “regional municipality” where they could loose there identity. I see Moncton being more like Boston where there is a whole bunch of Cities bordering each other. That being said, the borders of Riverview and Moncton could have definitely got bigger after the municipal reform. Moncton Riverview, Dieppe and Shediac will NEVER become the same municipality though. Saint John I could see being the City of Saint John, the City of Kennebecasis Valley and the Town of Grand Bay-Westfield. Fredericton and Oromocto should be kept separate but otherwise Fredericton could stand to expand to include, at the very least Hanwell and New Maryland.

[MonctonRad]

As a Saint Johner, Envision just does not understand the ethnolinguistic and geopolitical reality of southeastern NB. Full regional amalgamation will never, ever occur. For the same reason, UdeM will never be a bilingual university (despite being in a majority anglophone community), and, there will always be separate anglophone and francophone health care authorities. To think otherwise is heresy.

But, just because regional amalgamation will not occur does not mean that regional cooperation is not possible. We have a regional policing authority (Codiac RCMP), a regional transit authority (Codiac Transpo), regional waste management (Westmoreland/Albert Solid Waste), a regional water authority, and regional wastewater management. About the only thing that could be shared without giving up complete civic autonomy would be a regional fire service.

As for SJ, they can do as they wish, although I think full regional amalgamation will not happen down there unless forced upon the region by the province. I do like the idea of Kennebecasis City however. I think Rothesay, Quispamsis and possibly Hampton would make a dandy city.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As a Saint Johner, Envision just does not understand the ethnolinguistic and geopolitical reality of southeastern NB. Full regional amalgamation will never, ever occur. For the same reason, UdeM will never be a bilingual university (despite being in a majority anglophone community), and, there will always be separate anglophone and francophone health care authorities. To think otherwise is heresy.

But, just because regional amalgamation will not occur does not mean that regional cooperation is not possible. We have a regional policing authority (Codiac RCMP), a regional transit authority (Codiac Transpo), regional waste management (Westmoreland/Albert Solid Waste), a regional water authority, and regional wastewater management. About the only thing that could be shared without giving up complete civic autonomy would be a regional fire service.

As for SJ, they can do as they wish, although I think full regional amalgamation will not happen down there unless forced upon the region by the province. I do like the idea of Kennebecasis City however. I think Rothesay, Quispamsis and possibly Hampton would make a dandy city.

I'm not sure Envision is a Saint Johner. I think he mentioned in a post somewhere he is a "come from away'er"

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I'm not sure Envision is a Saint Johner. I think he mentioned in a post somewhere he is a "come from away'er"

Well, at least he didn't move to PEI. I'm from PEI originally, and I used to love to quip that a "come from away" would never become a true Islander, but that his seventh generation descendent might be eligible in about 150 years time.

[irisheyes]

There won't be a Kennebecasis City lol. Only someone with an odd gripe against SJ would say that.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, at least he didn't move to PEI. I'm from PEI originally, and I used to love to quip that a "come from away" would never become a true Islander, but that his seventh generation descendent might be eligible in about 150 years time.

One test of a Saint Johner is the ability to give directions involving only landmarks that have been gone for at least 25 years.

How to get to Hillcrest Baptist Church on the Westside from the Northend?

"Cross the bridge and go past the old tourist bureau. After you pass where Simms' brush factory used to be take a left and go past where the mental hospital was (across from the old Ford plant). Keep going straight past what used to be the Dominion store and then past where the DVA was. The church will be on your right. If you get to where the Lancaster fire station used to be you've gone too far........ Can't miss it"

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As a Saint Johner, Envision just does not understand the ethnolinguistic and geopolitical reality of southeastern NB. Full regional amalgamation will never, ever occur. For the same reason, UdeM will never be a bilingual university (despite being in a majority anglophone community), and, there will always be separate anglophone and francophone health care authorities. To think otherwise is heresy.

But, just because regional amalgamation will not occur does not mean that regional cooperation is not possible. We have a regional policing authority (Codiac RCMP), a regional transit authority (Codiac Transpo), regional waste management (Westmoreland/Albert Solid Waste), a regional water authority, and regional wastewater management. About the only thing that could be shared without giving up complete civic autonomy would be a regional fire service.

As for SJ, they can do as they wish, although I think full regional amalgamation will not happen down there unless forced upon the region by the province. I do like the idea of Kennebecasis City however. I think Rothesay, Quispamsis and possibly Hampton would make a dandy city.

First off, I think it's you that doesn't understand individual towns, villages, and cities can keep their distinct identity and autonomy under a regional municipality, all while contributing fairly to a regional budget. Dieppe and Moncton would still have their councils, as would Riverview, Shediac, etc, they would all retain their town councils, and their individual councillors and even mayors would represent their communities at a regional council, and one of the mayors would become the regional chair. Sure some of the communities currently outside of Greater Moncton could see the benefit of joining the success story called Moncton, while retaining their individuality and identity?

Amalgamation doesn't have to be a one size fits all approach like the Halifax amalgamation was in 1996, there are alternative models. Maybe my proposal for an expanded Greater Moncton is too ambitious, but I really do think bigger is better, especially when we're talking long term. For our cities to grow, they need things like industrial parks that take up a lot of land, but also need a lot of environmental considerations. You're right though, Greater Moncton does have a lot of robust regional cooperation than is simply not found in the Saint John Region, Greater Moncton doesn't need amalgamation nearly as bad as the Saint John region, but the potential for growth is still there for both cities, and Fredericton too. We need an ambitious long term vision for NB's big three cities, and I really think regional amalgamation should be part of the approach, while working with communities to retain their distinct identities.


I guess i couldn't help myself making it as large as I did, because I like the way resembles Brittany on the map and a little bit like Normandy on the map too. New Brittany | Nouvelle-Bretagne or New Normandy | Nouvelle-Normandie would be a pretty great names too, the latter especially with the Dieppe connection... maybe an even better name than New Cork


I wonder, though, do many Acadiens descend from the people Brittany and Normandy? side note: I still think it would be great to get a flight(s) to France from Moncton to airports beyond Paris, since most of the places really worth seeing in France are elsewhere than Paris (added Moncton to Marrakesh for fun). I think most French people would be more interested in l'Acadie than our "friend" New Brisavoine ever seemed to be. I really think NB could do a better job marketing our uniquely bilingual province to prospective tourists in France. Making Moncton a bigger, Frencher municipality could help attract more French tourists than the current situation and sustain flights between YQM and France.



Brampton, Missisauga, and Caledon remain distinct cities and towns within a single regional municipality. The Peel Region proves urban, suburban, and even rural communities can exist with distinction within a single regional municipality.


What's really funny MonctonRad, is that you've changed your tune over the years. You used to think metropolitan amalgamation was desperately needed for SJ. : 👀

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Saint John will have to find ways to broaden its appeal beyond the Irving empire and heavy industry. The city has great built form and a nice natural environment, but is stifled by a small and constrained tax base. Metropolitan amalgamation is desperately needed in SJ to address this. An increased tax base is mandatory in dealing with the infrastructure deficits in the city........

I couldn't agree more, MonctonRad!

Dare I speculate that you're now cautious to embrace the potential of an amalgamated SJ, as the city's economic and demographic prospects have rebounded considerably since you make this comment?

I believe amalgamation is still desperately needed, and still believe that the tax base does need to grow beyond industrial developments, and into the 50% of the CMA population that lives outside the city limits. The vast majority of Saint John's top income earners live outside the city, in communities that now make up nearly 50% of the metropolitan population, and their comfort and personal preferences should not trump the greater good of the region and city they derive their incomes from.

Even if we don't get a "one size fits all approach" like the HRM in Saint John, the Port City and "the towns by the bay" would be far better off together, as single regional municipality of distinct communities which retain their city, town, and rural councils, which would constitute the membership of the regional council, including the mayors. Moreover, there would be a regional mayor or chair position, which would be above the mayor of Saint John or Rothesey, which could be voted on by a region wide vote.

Given the dynamics of the Saint John Region, I'd be surprised if this regional leader position wasn't mostly held by residents of Rothesay, Quispamsis, Hampton, Grand Bay, etc... but at least their suburban/exurban communities would finally be contributing fairly to a regional budget.

and yes, I still think a new name for the RM would be in order. I think Wolastoq Regional Municipality remains the the logical choice (since it refers to the same river Saint John is named after), but it could also be interesting if the government had an official competition for the new name of the Region. And yes, I still think it would be tremendous for Saint John to get a bit out of the very similarly shaped shadow of St. John's, Newfoundland, without wiping Saint John, New Brunswick off the map.



Yes, I'd prefer New Cork, or New Bristol (The Bristol Channel being where the UK's highest tides are, which rival the Bay of Fundy and exceed the tidal range of SJ) But in the spirit of truth and reconciliation, I think it would be hard to find a better new name for the Region than "Wolastoq".

[irisheyes]

Brunswick City.

Tribute to the fact that SJ was the original city - in fact had the British Loyalists not come and help build the original city, New Brunswick likely would not exist at all. We'd still be a largely rural hinterland of Nova Scotia almost like Cape Breton.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by irisheyes

Brunswick City.

Tribute to the fact that SJ was the original city - in fact had the British Loyalists not come and help build the original city, New Brunswick likely would not exist at all. We'd still be a largely rural hinterland of Nova Scotia almost like Cape Breton.

Sometimes a simple solution is the best solution. Brunswick City in certainly a simple solution. Though, if we were to full on copy New York, New York, we’d officially be New Brunswick, New Brunswick (often called New Brunswick City).

The province was supposed to be called New Ireland, but King George III stepped in and named it after Braunschweig (where the British royals are from in Germany). I’ve never been a big fan of that historical tidbit, though Braunschweig does seem like an amazing city.

Perhaps “New Ireland” could also be a good name, given the history, and given how many “Irish Canadians” live here.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

The census data released today reminded me of this thread, and reminded me of the potential for amalgamation in New Brunswick, especially here in Saint John where there are some very stark social-economic divisions between the city and suburbs. These divisions will take big solutions to solve, but it’s worth the effort.







Perhaps the second option, where each community maintains its distinct identity and maybe even retains their town/city councils, is the best way to approach amalgamation in New Brunswick, perhaps even in Saint John.

I still firmly believe that the entire Saint John region would benefit from amalgamating, and it doesn’t need to be a one size fits all approach. I also like to think that such an amalgamation model would be a great opportunity to go with a new (or old) name for the region as a whole, that isn’t Saint John… lessening the confusion between the extremely similarly named Saint John and St. John’s, which is especially apparent today on census data day.

If the Saint John Region amalgamated, I think we’d see the CMA reach 200k a lot quicker than if we didn’t amalgamate. And Again… amalgamation doesn’t have to be a one size fits all approach…

[josh_cat_eyes]

You’re beating a dead horse. It’s never gonna happen, certainly not at the scale you’re proposing.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Dude, let it go lol

[Freddypop]

Man..this topic is a waste of time. Please for the sake of the children.....let it go

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Not sure why people in NB specifically are so opposed and pessimistic about the prospects of amalgamation… when it’s such a common occurrence elsewhere in Canada.

I find it interesting too, that many of the regular posters here have said positive things about the prospects of amalgamation in the past. Even MonctonRad has said previously that amalgamation was desperately needed for Greater Saint John… so why the change of heart? If I had to guess, it’s because an amalgamated Saint John region would be harder for Greater Moncton to compete with than the Saint John Region in its current form. I believe he said he will no be participating in this thread, but I won’t think any less of him if he changes his mind and decides to clarify his change of stance on this topic.

Personally, I don’t think the current situation in Saint John (where nearly 50% of the CMA lives outside the city and suburbs) is a very healthy situation for the city and region’s long term growth and economic development goals. There’s just too many conflicting interests, and not enough cooperation.

[J81]

Envision has to be the most annoying person on these threads. Constantly bombarding every thread with hypothetical BS and babbling about things dreamt up in their head they feel should be reality and dismissing anyone and everyone that disagrees with their views

[KnoxfordGuy]

+1