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  #41  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2024, 1:25 PM
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New 'demand-based' parking rates debut in Ottawa
City will periodically adjust rates up or down by 50 cents

Jenna Legge · CBC News · Posted: Aug 12, 2024 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: 5 hours ago




Some parking rates in Ottawa are increasing Monday as part of the city's new "demand-based" pricing strategy.

Rates will go up "where demand for parking is very high to encourage turnover and create more available parking" and drop in places "where demand for parking is very low to increase demand," the city said in a statement last week.

The changes will affect 11 of 20 parking zones, with rates rising in seven of them and dropping in four.

In six zones, rates are increasing to $4 an hour:
  • Little Italy South (Preston Street south of Highway 417, as well as on adjacent side streets).
  • Chinatown (Somerset Street West and adjacent side streets from the O-Train tracks to Bronson Avenue).
  • Glebe South (Bank Street and adjacent side streets between Holmwood and First avenues).
  • Downtown (The area between Bronson Avenue and the Rideau Canal, north of Nepean Street).
  • King Edward (King Edward Avenue between Mann Avenue and Osgoode Street).
  • ByWard Core (The ByWard Market area from Rideau Street to Murray Street to Dalhousie Street — although not including Rideau or Dalhousie).

Parking rates will rise on Ruskin Street near The Ottawa Hospital's Civic campus to $4.50, hitting the maximum allowed under the 2024 budget.

Rates will drop from $1.50 to $1 an hour in the following zones:
  • Holland Cross (Holland Avenue, Spencer Street and Hamilton Avenue North).
  • Terminal (Terminal Avenue and Sandford Fleming Avenue).
  • Rideau (Rideau Street and adjacent side streets, east of King Edward Avenue).

The Vanier zone (Montreal Road, Montgomery Street and Selkirk Street) will see rates drop from $2 to $1.50 an hour.

The city estimates the new pricing model, approved by council in 2019, will bring in roughly $440,000 in a year.

The rates will periodically be adjusted up or down by 50 cents to "ensure that parking is appropriately priced to best support businesses, institutions and tourism," the city said.

Some residents doubt that the change will be a positive one.

"I think the parking is already quite expensive," said Maggie Beigun, who spends time in the southern part of the Glebe.

Beigun worried that certain areas could fill up if drivers flock to less expensive zones.

"I think it'll cause a little more congestion in the cheaper areas," she said. "I don't think homeowners would like that a whole lot."

Ervin Jean-Pierre is often downtown and said the price increase won't deter him from driving.

"[If] you're running a business, or you need to do something downtown, you have no choice," he said. "I need to park down there, so then I'll be paying more."

Tourists and other folks who enjoy Ottawa's popular areas will have to pay more, Jean-Pierre said, despite other everyday costs already rising.

"People want to come out and have lunch and or dinner, which is already gone up in price. So I don't know if that's the solution," he said.

Some business owners in areas where parking costs will rise say they're also concerned.

"We'll have to hope for more local walking traffic and less commuter traffic," said David Saunders, whose spouse owns the Witch Chest, which recently opened in the Glebe.

"Given the fact that around here most of the parking is limited to two hours anyways, I'm not sure that by changing the rates you're actually going to free up more space — because there's regular turnaround."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...tawa-1.7291322
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  #42  
Old Posted May 19, 2025, 3:07 AM
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Ottawa's controversial evening parking proposal generates mixed reactions in ByWard Market
Ottawa city staff recommended extending paid parking into the evening where parking demand is more than 80 per cent.

By Paula Tran, Ottawa Citizen
Published May 18, 2025 | Last updated 6 hours ago


A controversial proposal to extend evening parking rules in popular shopping districts in Ottawa has garnered mixed reactions from businesses and residents.

According to a report to the city’s public works and infrastructure committee, city staff recommended extending paid parking into the evening where parking demand is more than 80 per cent. Under this new plan, motorists will have to pay for parking until 9 p.m. on weekend and weekdays in the ByWard Market, King Edward Avenue and parts of Little Italy (Preston Street south of Highway 417 as well as on the immediately adjacent side streets) that meet the threshold.

Currently, on-street paid parking is in effect until 5:30 p.m. from Monday to Saturday and free all day on Sunday in the ByWard Market.

“The purpose of paid parking is to encourage turnover, which has the effect of making more parking available at any given point in time. This has the potential for a number of benefits,” the report read.

“For example, visitors will have more choices and experience less frustration when trying to find parking at busier times. There will also be more available convenient parking for those with accessibility issues. More available parking will also lead to less ‘cruising’ for parking which reduces traffic and the resulting impacts.”

Dave Mangano, co-owner of Grand Pizzeria and Bar, said the city’s proposal is a big concern because free parking is important for business. The busiest time for restaurants, bars and retailers is 5:30 p.m. to 9:30 p.m. every day.

“Any time you eliminate parking from that from that time period, it’s going to be detrimental to business,” Mangano said.

“We have been working with the city over the last week to try and come up with a reasonable solution to this that that benefits everybody.”

He added the proposed changes will have a bigger impact on retailers than restaurants and grocers, which cater to a larger demographic. While Mangano appreciates bike lanes and pedestrianization efforts, he said there needs to be a balance.

“We are a car society, and we are realizing that we need parking. We need parking infrastructure that benefits the businesses,” he said.

“I’m not sure what that balance would be, but we’re working towards finding one, at least, that allows the smaller businesses to be prosperous.”

The Lowertown Community Association also opposed the proposal, saying the move will exacerbate traffic congestion on narrow neighbourhood side streets and make it more dangerous for pedestrians in these neighbourhoods. Residents on King Edward Avenue will also see their quality of life lowered as more trucks and cars pass through the area, it said.

<more>

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/ottaw...arking-changes
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  #43  
Old Posted May 19, 2025, 8:23 PM
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It bothers me to no end that people like Dave seem to fail to grasp that charging for parking is literally and solely for the convenience of drivers. Free parking is great, but if there are no available spots because it's free, then what good is it to a potential customer?

And the LCA, useful as ever, fails to grasp that much of the traffic around the neighbourhood is just people circling the block looking for one of these elusive spots. If charging a dollar means that there are free spots on every block, then there's no need to keep driving round and round. And why going from 100% occupancy to 80% occupancy of parking spots on King Edward would somehow materialize more traffic is a complete mystery.

It would be one thing if pro-car talking points like free parking and more lanes actually made driving more convenient or easier. But they don't even help the people they claim to.
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  #44  
Old Posted May 21, 2025, 2:01 AM
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Plan for paid street parking during evenings, weekends frustrates business owners
Changes will mean ‘more choice and less frustration’ for drivers, city says

Ben Andrews · CBC News
Posted: May 20, 2025 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: May 20


A plan to extend paid street parking hours into the evenings and weekends in high-traffic neighbourhoods is drawing the ire of some Ottawa business owners.

City staff are recommending a range of reforms to an on-street parking regime that's been the norm in Ottawa for decades.

Among the most significant changes are proposals to add five new paid parking zones, extend paid hours into the evenings and add paid Sunday parking in some high-traffic areas.

The new parking rules would promote vehicle turnover to give visitors "more choice and less frustration," according to a city report, but some business owners in the most affected neighbourhoods aren't convinced.

"Anyone that's in business, it will bother them, yes," said Paolo Di Rienzo, owner of Di Rienzo Grocery and Deli near Little Italy.

"They should leave it at least the way it is, because they already make enough money anyway."

In the ByWard Market, The Grand Pizzeria co-owner David Mangano called the proposed parking rules a "big concern."

"Anything that affects parking in the market, negatively, we're against," he said. "We need as many people to come to the market as we possibly can."

<more>

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...king-1.7538356
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  #45  
Old Posted May 21, 2025, 2:11 AM
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City shouldn't kill ByWard Market's free on-street parking
The new proposal is a cash grab disguised as a parking solution

By Randall Denley, Ottawa Citizen
Published May 20, 2025 | Last updated 2 hours ago


For years, the good people at Ottawa City Hall have wrung their hands over the decline of the ByWard Market, making plans for a fanciful future while in reality the Market’s situation steadily worsens.

Doing nothing is one thing, but now councillors are being advised to make things even more challenging for businesses in the Market. Thursday, councillors will consider a staff recommendation to eliminate free on-street parking on evenings and Sundays in the Market and some other shopping areas.

The city says it wants more people to come to the Market, but how will charging more for parking produce that result?

Here’s the city’s explanation. “The data showed that in several paid areas of the city, parking demand was high at different times, including evenings and weekends when there is currently no paid parking. This suggests a lack of available parking, which has negative implications on businesses and the community as a whole.”

Let’s break that down. Heavily utilized free parking might seem like a good thing for businesses, but no, it’s actually bad. According to city staff’s thinking, making people pay for parking and then compelling them to leave the spot in two hours is a great way to encourage more people to come to the Market.

Some might argue that two hours is a bit of a rush. What if people wanted to look around at stores and then go out to dinner? Or even if they wanted to linger over their dinner, maybe have a drink and talk to friends? These activities are discouraged by the two-hour parking limit. You’re to have your fun and move along as quickly as possible so another person can take your place. What do people think this is, Europe?

City staff envision that this brilliant new strategy will make more parking spaces available.

“The purpose of paid parking is to encourage turnover, which has the effect of making more parking available at any given point in time. This has the potential for a number of benefits,” the staff report says.

“For example, visitors will have more choices and experience less frustration when trying to find parking at busier times. There will also be more available convenient parking for those with accessibility issues. More available parking will also lead to less ‘cruising’ for parking which reduces traffic and the resulting impacts.”

That assessment is at least partly correct. Parking spots will be easier to find because the new charges and time limits will deter people from coming to the Market or other affected areas including the Glebe and Little Italy.

Let’s be blunt, the new parking plan is a cash grab disguised as a parking solution.

City staff’s report says its expansion of paid street parking into evenings and Sunday will net the city $3 million. That doesn’t include the likely additional parking ticket revenue collected from those who can’t scurry back to their cars quickly enough.

That $3 million is a significant increase in the city’s parking take. In 2024, the city collected $18.04 million in revenue from parking with $8.86 million of that from on-street spots. The city’s annual report on parking services says operating an on-street parking spot costs a surprising $2,188 a year.

The cost of providing paid parking in 2024 totalled $16.61 million. Of that, $1.61 million was administration and $920,000 went to studies. After all that collecting and spending, only $1.43 million was left over as a contribution to the city’s parking reserve fund.

The ByWard Market is considered a city-wide attraction. It’s nice for those who live nearby to walk or cycle to the Market, but the success of businesses there depends on reaching a broader clientele. That means people who drive cars and require parking. Yes, the city does provide paid parking in its garages, if you can find a spot, but free parking is a way to encourage people outside the core to come to the Market at no real cost to the city.

Killing free parking just adds another challenge to the Market’s long list. Other than money, what’s the point?

Randall Denley is an Ottawa journalist and author. Contact him at [email protected]

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/de...street-parking
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  #46  
Old Posted May 21, 2025, 4:53 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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I used to go downtown much more often than I do now. During the day, I was mostly traveling alone, so I traveled on public transit. I was willing to drive people downtown on weekends and evenings because the World Exchange Plaza had free underground parking. We would walk from there to where we wanted to go. The free parking was a definite incentive.

I am ready to pay for parking, but it needs to be reasonable. One Christmas, I wanted to buy a particular calendar for a relative. I could find only one in Ottawa, and it was at 240 Sparks. I drove down, because I was in a hurry, and parked in the outside lot at Queen and Kent. I bought the $10 calendar and looked around for a short bit before returning to the car. I was a couple of minutes over the hour, so parking came to $20. That was a major disincentive to go downtown again to do any Christmas shopping. (I enjoyed driving to Billings Bridge Mall at Christmas time. It, of course, was free parking, but more importantly, it had wandering carolers strolling the mall.)

I still would take people downtown for a meal or a show, but we would wait until parking at the World Exchange was free, after 17:30 or on a week-end. Once that free parking ended, I felt that the $2 charged at the City Hall lot was not outrageous. Then that cost jumped up 50% to $3. Still not crazy, but I went downtown less often. (I guess that I have a pretty low threshold.)

There is something about free parking that seems to outweigh the hassle of driving into the core. Having the free parking after 17:30 meant that people could plan for an evening in the market, or at the Buskers, or to grab some ribs, without feeling as if it was costing extra.

If the city NEEDS to create greater churn of on-street parking spaces, it needs to provide an alternative. OK, charge for on-street parking, but make parking in structures free in the evenings. But this is not what the City does. It increases the cost on-street AND raises the cost of parking in structures. (This city does not appear to understand the ‘carrot’ part of coaxing. They love to, for example, remove road lanes, saying that it will encourage people to use transit – but then they also make transit harder to use.)

The city is spread out, with lots of local amenities scattered around it. But it also has several regional amenities. These draw people from all across the city. With the state of public transit, many will choose to drive – or not go. For those who drive, there needs to be a reasonable way for them to store their car while there.

The city needs a lot more parking structures. The one in The Glebe, for example is full by 09:00 on summer week-ends. There were over 1,400 parking tickets given out during the Tulip Festival. Those folks will think twice about going again. Many years ago, Majic 100 offered a free outdoor movie night at Britannia Beach. My brother-in-law drove a bunch down and found parking quite limited. He parked diagonally into a corner, making sure that he didn’t block the cars on either side. He returned to find a $60 parking ticket. All of the drivers who were not in official spots were ticketed, including all of those who parked on the grass around the parking lot and along the lane. There were dozens of parking tickets handed out at the ‘free’ movie. I know that my brother-in-law has not gone to any free event like that again, and probably never will. Once burned, twice shy.

I know that the City simply says ‘Take public transit.” But that is not a realistic option. I used to cycle to downtown in 22 minutes; it takes over an hour now on the bus/train. If a parent is taking a group of teens, each of them will need to pay full transit fare, both directions. That adds up. Regional attractions REQUIRE enough parking for the number of cars that they draw in.

In the case of the By Ward Market, the City should be looking at a HUGE parking structure under York, with easy access to Sussex (and maybe Rideau and King Edward). This captures cars BEFORE they start driving around within the market area. Then this can become a pedestrian area on the surface, but still easily accessible from anywhere in the city.
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  #47  
Old Posted May 22, 2025, 5:39 PM
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Paid parking expansion limited to 7:30 p.m. as committee passes compromise
Coun. Ariel Troster's motion also axes proposal for paid parking on Sunday

Arthur White-Crummey · CBC News
Posted: May 22, 2025 12:32 PM EDT | Last Updated: 1 hour ago


Ottawa city councillors have voted to pare back proposed parking changes that would have extended paid parking late into the evenings and on Sundays.

City staff initially wanted to charge for parking until 9 p.m. in areas including the ByWard Market and parts of Little Italy and the Glebe. In areas that currently have paid parking on Saturdays, paid parking would also apply on Sundays.

But Somerset Coun. Ariel Troster introduced a motion to limit the evening paid hours to 7:30 p.m. and axe the extension of paid parking to Sundays. Her motion would then have staff report back in 2027 on how the new hours are working.

Troster called it a compromise motion that would give the city a chance to assess the data.

"There are a lot of concerns here, and I think the compromise motion that I'm putting forward acknowledges that and gives us a little bit more time," she said.

"I don't think this will have a huge impact on business, but if I'm wrong we have another chance to look at this in 2027."

But several business owners disagreed. They came to committee to oppose any move to extend paid parking into the evening.

Darrel Cox of the Ottawa Coalition of Business Improvement Areas said it would be yet another burden for businesses dealing with tariffs and other economic challenges.

Dave Mangano from The Grand Pizzeria & Bar in the ByWard Market said paid parking makes it tough to compete with big box businesses that offer ample free parking.

Todd Brown, a partner in a group of downtown restaurants including Pure Kitchen and the Clocktower, said the proposed changes will drive away diners and devastate business.

"We're in a really tough time for restaurants," he said. "Consumers are not willing to pay more money."

But Cassie Smith of the non-profit EnviroCentre cited research showing that drivers searching for parking adds significantly to traffic and greenhouse gas emissions.

"Paid parking makes it easier for drivers to find a spot where and when they need it," Smith said.

In her view, that will actually attract more customers for business. She described free parking as a subsidy for cars and asked the city to level the playing field for more sustainable modes of transportation.

"Charging for parking is good economic, social and environmental policy," Smith said.

City staff had proposed the changes to promote turnover in high-demand parking areas. The extended hours would only be added in areas where evening or weekend demand exceeds 80 per cent of spaces.

Staff conducted a review of other cities that showed most have both evening and weekend paid parking hours.

"All of the data from every other major city that has done this says, yes, it is going to work," said Troster. "And the only way we are going to know is if we try."

Troster's compromise motion won wide support at the public works and infrastructure committee, including from chair Tim Tierney.

"I think the compromise to 7:30 is good," he said.

Only Knoxdale-Merivale Coun. Sean Devine voted against the motion at committee. He said he supports the more ambitious staff recommendations.

The committee's decision isn't final, since a full meeting of council will have a chance to weigh in. If the changes do pass, they would take effect in September.

The changes would also affect areas that don't yet have paid parking but are due to get it later this year. That includes parts of Richmond Road, where staff are proposing extending evening parking on weekdays.

While the southern section of Little Italy South and the ByWard Market would get evening paid parking on both weekdays and weekends, the south Glebe would only see hours extended into the evenings on weekdays, not weekends.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...mise-1.7541033
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  #48  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2025, 6:09 PM
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Should Ottawa tow all vehicles from streets during winter parking bans? City staff say no

By Josh Pringle, CTV News
Published: June 13, 2025 at 7:35AM EDT


City of Ottawa staff are burying the idea of towing vehicles from city streets during winter parking bans, saying there would be insufficient space in impound lots and a lack of staff and towing resources to tow all vehicles.

Bylaw Services officers issued 10,678 parking tickets for failing to observe winter weather parking bans between Feb. 12 and 18. That resulted in more than $1.1 million in fines. The City of Ottawa issues parking bans to allow crews to clear snow during heavy snowfall events, and only vehicles with an on-street parking permit permitted to park on city streets.

Barrhaven Coun. David Hill asked staff what would it cost if “a more aggressive policy was taken to proactively tow vehicles” that are currently fined for violating parking bans during snowstorms.

In response to Hill’s inquiry for the emergency preparedness and protective services committee, staff said that, for “various reasons,” it would not be recommended to implement a policy to proactively tow all vehicles violating a winter weather parking ban.

Staff say there would be a lack of available tow trucks because collisions are treated as a priority for towing companies over an illegally parked vehicle. The City of Ottawa contracts towing services to private companies.

“Based on the number of parking tickets issued during the Winter Weather Parking Bans in February 2025, there would be insufficient space in the designated impound lot in the east end of the city to store all impounded vehicles,” staff said. “Further, significant time would be lost physically moving vehicles from their current location to the impound lot and then returning to the area where tows would be required.”

The report notes a Bylaw officer would be required to remain at the scene until each vehicle is towed, “which further delays Bylaw and Regulatory Services’ response to subsequent illegal parked vehicles.”

Other issues flagged by the staff include:
  • On-street parking permits: Staff say it would be necessary to “rescind” the policy allowing vehicles with on-street parking permits to park on streets during winter weather parking bans.
  • Resourcing and scale: “Due to the vast scale of the operations and geographic size of the city, there would not be sufficient resources, both within RPS and BLRS, to provide adequate coverage of the city if a towing model were to be implemented,” staff said.
  • Liability to the city: “Each time a vehicle is towed, particularly in adverse weather conditions, there is a risk of accidental damage. This increases the risk of liability and claims to the city,” the report said.
  • Impact on residents and businesses: “A model whereby all vehicles were to be towed would significantly affect residents and local businesses who may not have access to private parking. It would also greatly affect the ability of businesses to conduct deliveries and of parents to drop off and pick up their children from school,” the report says.

If the City of Ottawa implemented a towing policy, staff say the winter weather parking bans would need to be “expanded to several days” to effectively tow all vehicles parked violating a parking ban.

The report concludes “it would not be recommended to implement a policy” to tow all vehicles violating the winter weather parking ban on City of Ottawa streets.

“Concerns regarding specific problematic streets will continue to be addressed on a case-by-case basis,” the response said.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/ottawa/articl...-staff-say-no/
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  #49  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2025, 7:54 PM
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Only tow repeat offenders?
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  #50  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2025, 3:15 AM
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I got a ticket at 5:08am when the ban ended at 7am. The street was perfectly plowed and I had been parking since roughly 3am. I had to park on the street because our own snow removal was so poor in our lot I quite was certain I wouldn't make it into my spot without getting stuck and I didn't feel like digging. I made up to my unit and saw the snow company had for some reason took all the snow out of the visitor spots and dumped it into the main isle, mostly where I would need to back up and then left. Still wondering about that one.

Our snow removal this year was very poor and I obtained correspondence between management and the snow company stating as such. Oh.. and I had documents showing I had just been released from the hospital with a pulmonary embolism the week before. Oh.. and I just got back from shoveling snow for 12 hours haha. I filmed a video with the snow up to my knees. I think this was around 36 hour after the snow started.

For context our lot is on a hill and my parking space is at an angle. You have to go lock-to-lock front and back to get into my spot while knicking the curb on the inside and touching the curb with the front wheels before backing up. I've been here for 5 years and even in perfect weather I still have to adjust my line from time to time to not swipe my neighbors car. #fullsizevanlife

A quick email to the city with supporting evidence had my ticket turned over in less than 24 hours.

Why get tow trucks involved? Stupid do nothing idea.

Furthermore... why are they issuing tickets after the road has been cleared? We are paying moron councillors to discuss this idiot topic and paying bylaw officers to wipe the drool from their chin on the cities dime.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2025, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis View Post
Furthermore... why are they issuing tickets after the road has been cleared? We are paying moron councillors to discuss this idiot topic and paying bylaw officers to wipe the drool from their chin on the cities dime.
Agreed. You want to save money? Don't ticket when parking is no longer an issue. Focus on the areas that still need snow clearing.
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  #52  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2025, 7:03 PM
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Westboro merchants fear new parking meters are driving away business
Bylaw officers issued 1,600 tickets in September along Wellington Street W., Richmond Road

Cameron Mahler · CBC News
Posted: Oct 01, 2025 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: 11 hours ago


Ottawa bylaw officers have handed out more than 1,600 parking tickets since new meters were installed along Wellington Street W. and Richmond Road last month, prompting a mixed response from residents and businesses.

The city said it installed the pay-and-display machines to better manage curb-side parking and boost shopper turnover on the busy retail strip, but some businesses say the new meters aren't having the desired effect.

At Quelque Chose Patisserie, co-owner David Seba has noticed his shop has been quieter in recent weeks.

"I feel like there's less people now compared to right before that was implemented," Seba said. "Before, [customers] would come chill, relax. Now they come and they're worried that they could get a ticket."

Seba worries the loss of free parking removes the incentive that drove people to Westboro instead of other shopping districts in the city.

"Now that we are the same as any other areas like the Glebe and ByWard [Market], they might as well go somewhere else," he said.

<more>

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ters-1.7647535
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  #53  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2025, 12:13 PM
Lakeofthewood Lakeofthewood is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
Westboro merchants fear new parking meters are driving away business
Bylaw officers issued 1,600 tickets in September along Wellington Street W., Richmond Road

Cameron Mahler · CBC News
Posted: Oct 01, 2025 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: 11 hours ago


Ottawa bylaw officers have handed out more than 1,600 parking tickets since new meters were installed along Wellington Street W. and Richmond Road last month, prompting a mixed response from residents and businesses.

The city said it installed the pay-and-display machines to better manage curb-side parking and boost shopper turnover on the busy retail strip, but some businesses say the new meters aren't having the desired effect.

At Quelque Chose Patisserie, co-owner David Seba has noticed his shop has been quieter in recent weeks.

"I feel like there's less people now compared to right before that was implemented," Seba said. "Before, [customers] would come chill, relax. Now they come and they're worried that they could get a ticket."

Seba worries the loss of free parking removes the incentive that drove people to Westboro instead of other shopping districts in the city.

"Now that we are the same as any other areas like the Glebe and ByWard [Market], they might as well go somewhere else," he said.

<more>

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ters-1.7647535
These businesses have data to back up their claims right? Not just "feel"?
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