The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[CharlotteSJ]

• Video Link

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by CharlotteSJ

• Video Link

So, not nearly as "green, low impact" of a development as one might assume.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by OliverD

This confusion exists mostly in your own mind.

Hardly. It's a complete NB myth to believe that no confusion exists over Saint John's name being extremely similar to St. John's... or that this confusion doesn't really matter and we shouldn't worry about it from a tourism or branding perspective. Like, let's be serious, many Canadians west of New Brunswick don't there are two separate cities in Atlantic Canada called Saint John and St. John's, nor do they care to know this. Where this confusion seems to pop up the most frequently is in regards to the very similarly named airports. There was a thread on reddit about how often to Canadians confuse Saint John and St. John's, and more than half of the examples posted had to do with some sort of confusion or mix up with buying tickets for the wrong SJ's airport. Like, at the very least, the Saint John Airport should look at changing its name to something like Bay of Fundy Airport, perhaps with Saint John in brackets, or perhaps not mentioned at all, as I think retaining the YSJ airport would be good enough in terms of keeping the "SJ" part of the airport's name. YSJ already serves a market in which more than half reside outside the City of Saint John.

Again, I'm not even suggesting that Saint John, the city at the centre of this region change its name, I'm only suggesting that if we do see regional amalgamation happen or the establishment of some sort of regional, super government, that the region as a whole go with a new name, since

#1) the "Saint John" brand doesn't have the best reputation among the near 50% of the CMA that lives outside the city limits

and

#2 going with a new name for the region could help lessen the ongoing branding challenge that the Saint John Region faces with its name being incredibly similar to relatively nearby St. John's. A new, more distinct name for the region could really help deal with this branding and marketing issue.

Y'all can try and gaslight me and claim it's "all in my head", or call me a broken record all you want, I'd rather sound like a broken record than someone who refuses to even admit there's a problem.

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Well, you should know that the Region of Peel was officially formed in 1974 from the former County of Peel, which was created in 1852. It was named after Sir Robert Peel, a 19th-century British Prime Minister - like many counties across Ontario. So all of these communities were already a part of "Peel County" later "Region of Peel", so it is not like they "made up" a new name, it was inherited. Further, Mississauga's name and origin is rooted in the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation, who migrated to the area in the early 1700s. It used to be known as the Township of Toronto, but in 1965, the Township of Toronto needed a new name since it was next to the 'Bigger Toronto" and selected "Mississauga" after a popular vote.

The City of Mississauga was officially incorporated in 1974, but was formed from the amalgamation of the Town of Mississauga and other surrounding communities - namely Port Credit, Streetsville, Cooksville, and other communities - some equal in size at the time. To this day, there is still resentment from long-time residents in these former communities and several heritage societies focused exclusively on preserving their individual histories and identities.

So, depending how you look at it - some of your arguments are validated and nulled - all at the same time. LOL

Basically, communities and regions evolve over time but few places basically re-name themselves to avoid confusion, but rather further define a sense of place. Region of Peel, which is where most of the power lies, was the defacto County name. The City of Mississauga was based on the original inhabitants and chosen in the 60s because you couldn't have two "Toronto's" beside each other, and despite being amalgamated into a bigger "Mississauga" on the city level, most people are governed, pay taxes to, and get their services from the Region of Peel - be they in Brampton, Mississauga, Streetsville, or Port Credit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the name Wolastoq (for the river) long predate the name Saint John, or rather Saint-Jean (given by Champlain in 1604)?


The Wolastoq river, and its tributary, the Kennebecasis river are found in both Saint John County and King's County.


However, while the Bay of Fundy is found in Saint John County, it is not found in King's County.

Not only do I think that the names Wolastoq Regional Municipality or Regional Municipality of Wolastoq further "define a sense of place" than Saint John Regional Muncipality or Greater Saint John Regional Authority would, I think going with Wolastoq over Saint John would be a highly meaningful and symbolic choice that would respect the legacy of the first nations and be in line with the goals of truth and reconciliation.

So really, it wouldn't be going with a new name, so much as it would be going back to the original name... and it would done without wiping any of Saint John, Rothesay, Quispamsis, Grand Bay, etc, off the map.

If the province announced plans to amalgamate the Saint John Region, or plans to create a "regional super government" that wasn't "full on" amalgamation... I'm pretty confident that the residents of the bedroom communities would far rather be part of something called the "Wolastoq Regional Municipality", than be part of something called the "Saint John Regional Municipality".

I'm a proud resident of Saint John myself, and even I'd rather be part of the WRM, than the SJRM, as it would be a fresh, new start for the city and region... plus, it would help distinguish our region from the St. John's Region in Newfoundland, which is something we should be concerned about as part of any sort of major marketing makeover.

Though, again, I agree with with most of what you've been saying here, and I especially agree that the biggest change we need here in the region, and in this province, is a change of attitude!

Saint John really can't get rid of that "Small City, Big Heart" slogan soon enough.

"Canada's First City" or "Canada's Original City" are both far better, more prideful slogans that we could adopt any time we wanted... and should Montreal, Quebec City, Halifax, or St. John's try and dispute the claims of the slogan, let them go ahead, and drum up some free press for our city.

[OliverD]

No one is saying that no confusion exists. We're saying the problems that arise from this confusion are nowhere near as significant as you seem to think they are.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by OliverD

No one is saying that no confusion exists. We're saying the problems that arise from this confusion are nowhere near as significant as you seem to think they are.

How do you know how significant this problem is or isn't? It's not exactly easy to quantify now, is it?

I think it's a much bigger problem that you seem to think it is.

I've been here almost a decade now, and I still have people from out west asking me "how are things in St. John's" or even "Newfoundland".

There's no sense denying that the names aren't incredibly similar, or that St. John's isn't the slightly larger and more notable place compared to Saint John.

The problem of confusion impacts Saint John more negatively than it impacts St. John's.

In terms of branding and marketing... name recognition matters a lot! Simply put, Saint John's name being so similar to that of St. John's is a problem of name recognition.

So if we ever do see regional amalgamation occur (whether full on like Halifax, or a softer amalgamation like in the Peel Region) I think it would be quite a missed opportunity to not go with a new, distinct name for the region... especially since sticking with the Saint John name for the entire region would just piss off the people living in the bedroom communities.

Still, we might be waiting quite a while for any sort of amalgamation to happen here in the region... so in the meantime, I think we should strongly consider renaming the Saint John Airport to something more distinct, since it's the airports where the "SJ vs SJs" confusion happens most frequently.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

So, not nearly as "green, low impact" of a development as one might assume.

How can we say for sure? We don't even yet what type of data centre has been proposed for Lorneville's Spruce Lake Industrial Park. The expansion to the industrial park added 1500+ acres, and as far as we know, the proposed data centre will take up at least 600,000 square feet, which could mean a lot of roof space for solar capacity. Same with the water piece, we don't know nearly enough about the proposed data centre yet to speculate what kind of impact it may or may not have on the local water supply, wells in the area, etc.

Like to me, this is a project that seems to have far more upsides than downsides... especially if the province really delivers on property tax reform. Data centres are incredibly important economic investments in a global economy that is increasingly embracing cloud computing and AI.

Environmental concerns matter, of course, but for a city that already hosts the largest oil refinery in the country, I find the environmental outrage (almost entirely based on speculation) to be a bit much. Not saying you're outraged, Sailor, lol, but I do think we need to wait and hear more details about the plans before we make any sort of judgement on the proposal's environmental impact or "greenness".


I'm quoting Bingun's very detailed post from the previous page below, as many might not have seen the post since the YT video on data centres posted by CharlotteSJ this morning started a new page.

Originally Posted by bingun

I have wanted to write a post about the proposed data centre for the Spruce Lake Industrial Park for a few weeks now, since the EIA approval was confirmed.

Perhaps now is a good time to get us off the topic of amalgamation.


Overview

As part of a presentation in favour of the Spruce Lake Industrial Park rezoning, the CEO of Saint John Industrial Parks presented two proposed projects for the industrial park, one of which was a data centre.

This was backed up by a Letter of Intent from somebody, so it wasn't entirely speculative. Since then, the data centre project has been mentioned again in several other council meetings or committees, specifically highlighting that Saint John is a very competitive location.





What makes Saint John, or specifically the Spruce Lake Industrial Park, a good location for a data centre?


Power Availability & Cost -

While prices have gone up in recent years, New Brunswick still has some of the lowest electricity costs in North America. In Canada, it appears that only Quebec and Manitoba are significantly cheaper.

The industrial park is close to major power generation and transmission infrastructure (Coleson Cove, Point Leapreau, etc.), which is highly advantageous.

Cooling & Climate -

Thanks to the Bay of Fundy, Saint John has a naturally cool climate, especially in the summer when compared to other locations in Canada. We do not get temperatures in the 30s like many inland cities do.

Spruce Lake itself can also offer an abundance of fresh industrial water for cooling when and if required, as it already does for other industrial users.

Connectivity & Latency -

While transatlantic cables to Europe do not pass through Saint John directly, they do so close by in Halifax, which is only a stone's throw away by network standards.

Saint John also has existing high-bandwidth fibre connectivity with the United States, which should minimize latency to high population regions on the East Coast.

Natural Hazard Risk -

Saint John is relatively sheltered from natural disasters such as earthquakes or tsunamis. It also has a relatively low risk of forest fires (at least compared to western Canada and Quebec), and the industrial park's location should shelter it from the worst of any flooding or storm surge.

Severe storms, especially ice storms, could still pose a risk, but some mitigations could be taken to minimize this.

Land & Construction -

Data centres typically require large plots (50-200 acres), which is precisely what the industrial park aims to provide.

Land costs in Saint John are also competitive, especially when compared to other provinces such as Ontario or BC.

Thanks to the city and the province, the industrial park is now zoned correctly, allowing a project to proceed to more advanced planning and applications.

Workforce & Ecosystem -

While I wouldn't say this is Saint John's strength, the city has a large enough industrial and IT workforce to mitigate any concern.

One workforce benefit is that wages for these positions may be lower than elsewhere in Canada, due to the local cost of living, although some may debate this.



Comparable data centre projects

The most comparable example in Canada I could find to the investment described in the presentation is in Calgary, called CAL-3 from eStruxture Data Centers.

This will be the largest data centre in Alberta; however, it is smaller in investment dollars and size. The project is ongoing and set to be completed next year.

https://www.estruxture.com/insights/in-t...t-in-calgary-area-the-largest-in-alberta

I can't find the site plan for this project or more detailed images, but the below render gives you an idea of the size and scale.




Looking to the United States, Meta has a data centre project in Kansas City, Missouri, of roughly $1 billion.

Here are some images/renders of that project.






Another example could be a Google data centre in The Dalles, Oregon, also of a similar size investment.

I believe this image is from when the site was under construction.




Employment & other benefits

The PowerPoint presentation mentioned 750 jobs during construction, which is fairly self-explanatory. However, once operational, it mentions 150 ongoing jobs. What would these jobs be?

Facilities Technicians, Power Engineers, HVAC, Electrical Technicians, NOC operators, Network Engineers, Systems Engineers, Site Security, Health & Safety, Admin, etc.

While the compensation will vary between these roles, these are good-paying jobs, and I would guess many would pay between $70-100K , with senior roles even higher. There would likely also be some spin-off jobs in the local area from business services and other niche services.

As the presentation mentioned, a data centre could add $120-135M to the tax base and generate $3-3.5M annually in property taxes. This would be roughly a 2% increase in overall property tax revenue.

What makes this even more appealing is that the data centre requires few municipal services compared to other properties, such as residential or commercial. While there would likely be some upfront requirements to transport and water infrastructure, once the data centre is operational, it should be a net positive.

NB Power & Saint John Water

One of my biggest concerns with this project is NB Power's ability to service it, at least reliably. However, having another large industrial customer, such as a data centre, would be advantageous for them.

The power requirements are consistent, which allows the utility to justify transmission and generation upgrades. For example, it may aid them in committing to a new generation like a wind farm, as they can guarantee that the wind farm will be profitable at a given price, knowing that the data centre will consume that power.

I tried to estimate the power requirements of a data centre like this, but it's a little challenging without more information. A rough guess could be approximately 100MW.

For reference, NB's peak power requirements in the wintertime are about 3000MW, so this would be about 3%. The Burchill Wind Farm can produce about 42MW, and Coleson Cove about 1000MW.

I am less concerned by Saint John Water, but this could be beneficial to them, too. The water consumption of a data centre depends on its cooling method, but even if it's a highly efficient system, it could use 1000-2000 m³/day.

Currently, Saint John Water distributes about 23,000 m³/day so this would be a 5%+ increase in output. While much of the revenue generated by this consumption would be required to maintain the infrastructure, there could still be a significant margin for profit, which Saint John Water could reinvest into upgrading or maintaining other infrastructure in the city or limit rate rises.

Looking at the pictures of other data centres you included, one of the first things that comes to mind is "where are the solar panels"? However, the second thing that comes to mind... is that all the roofs are white, which is the most efficient colour choice possible in terms of cooling, and could significantly help reduce the impacts of global warming if more roofs, roads, and other surfaces used white and other lighter coloured materials.

I think access to water and power are two of the strongest factors in favour of this being a good location for a data centre. Though, the other factors listed are also quite well reasoned. I think it's also notable that Point Lepreau Nuclear Generating Station is less than 40 km away, and that a second reactor is likely to be built at Point Lepreau.

The point about the mild climate seems to be quite strong too, especially since cooling is such an important part of the operations at any data centre.

Like, I'm not trying to downplay environmental concerns... I just think we should wait and hear more details before jumping to conclusions.

[cdnguys]

how to upload pictures from google

[bingun]

Originally Posted by CharlotteSJ

• Video Link

Thanks for posting the video; it was an interesting watch, and a lot of the information was similar to what I had read while doing some research.

I should say that my post is not meant to be a fully balanced perspective, as I was focusing on the reasoning and economic benefits to Saint John. There are definitely some downsides, and I will comment below.


Proximity to residential neighbourhoods and noise/vibration

Some of the clips in the video were shocking, given how close the residential neighbourhoods were to the facilities and just how many there were in a small proximity. In some ways, it's what we would have ended up with in Lorneville if they hadn't pushed back and gotten a larger buffer.

I think this will probably be the most significant point of resistance if a data centre is proposed, and trying to retain the tree buffer and force the company to minimize noise will be important.


Cooling & Water Consumption

The segment about pulling water for cooling in drought-prone areas is very valid, and it's crazy that they have set many of these up in places like Arizona that have little to no rainfall.

However, I think this is precisely why they are now considering less obvious locations like New Brunswick and Saint John. Although we have had a tremendously dry summer, which is not typical, we have no shortage of freshwater and a naturally cool climate.

From my research, there are several different types of cooling systems, the simplest consumes and evaporates vast quantities of water, while other, more complex systems recycle that water to minimize consumption.

You can also find hybrid options that fall somewhere in the middle. Most of the newer data centres are closed systems, which should help temper any excessive water use. However, Saint John Water must still carefully consider this to ensure that issues do not arise.


Power Consumption

The power consumption side is also valid, and it raises the question of whether NB Power will have to retain highly emitting power plants longer to feed these data centres or if they can still commit to other sources. I don't have a lot of faith in NB Power, but I hope the modular nuclear reactors or significantly increased wind power will help avoid short-sighted decisions.

However, I feel like this is a larger issue than any proposed data centre is merely a small part of.


Tax Breaks

This is definitely going to be the most controversial aspect of any proposal. I strongly oppose granting a data centre any municipal tax break and firmly believe that Saint John should support this initiative to help improve its property tax revenues and reduce its infrastructure deficit.

However, if the provincial government want to provide some other form of incentive or corporate welfare, that might be more reasonable, although questionable given the mega companies behind many of these data centres, I don't think I have seen any discussion of data centres by the provincial government, but I am sure they have had conversations behind the scenes.


Future Expansion

I think the video also raises a good point about how many of these locations start out with one or a few data centres and then soon see many. Could we see further land rezoned out towards Prince of Wales if the data centre is successful? How many data centres would be too many, and how much water and power can we spare?

[bingun]

Council agenda for Monday is up, and it appears Melanie Vantour is now on side.

It is late, so I can't quite discern what changes have been made, but they have made some alterations to the original plan.

On behalf of the Board of Directors and staff of Fresh Start Services, I am pleased to express our support for the City of Saint John’s “Housing for All Strategy” including the policies and actions contained within it.

https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=23569

https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=23566

[sailor734]

With regard to data centres I'm not opposed but was pointing out that just because there isn't a smokestack a project isn't automatically benign from an environmental POV.

With regard to water consumption for cooling I wonder if they couldn't use the bay like Point Lepreau?

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by bingun

Council agenda for Monday is up, and it appears Melanie Vantour is now on side.

It is late, so I can't quite discern what changes have been made, but they have made some alterations to the original plan.



https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=23569

https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=23566

Where does their funding for salaries,rent etc come from? Maybe they were told to get with the program?

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Where does their funding for salaries,rent etc come from? Maybe they were told to get with the program?

Red zones now 'orange' if the tenter has a good excuse to be there/has been there for a long time/really doesn't want to move/doesn't care for the yellow zones

Enforcement delayed until some unspecified time in November

Yellow zones to be serviced, locations will remain secret to the general public and will be only known to Fresh Start, first responders, and our plenaries on Council

Fresh Start to get paid

What's wrong with these people? Are they unaware of the public mood?

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Red zones now 'orange' if the tenter has a good excuse to be there/has been there for a long time/really doesn't want to move/doesn't care for the yellow zones

Enforcement delayed until some unspecified time in November

Yellow zones to be serviced, locations will remain secret to the general public and will be only known to Fresh Start, first responders, and our plenaries on Council

Fresh Start to get paid

What's wrong with these people? Are they unaware of the public mood?

Unbelievable the city would cave like this. May elections are coming!

Sounds like Fresh Start has made a tidy little business out of homelessness and doesn't want anybody to rock the boat.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Red zones now 'orange' if the tenter has a good excuse to be there/has been there for a long time/really doesn't want to move/doesn't care for the yellow zones

Enforcement delayed until some unspecified time in November

Yellow zones to be serviced, locations will remain secret to the general public and will be only known to Fresh Start, first responders, and our plenaries on Council

Fresh Start to get paid

What's wrong with these people? Are they unaware of the public mood?

Wait, so basically the map that said everything not a red zone or green zone is a yellow zone is completely meaningless now? Or did you just mean that the serviced yellow zone locations will be kept secret? Either way, I don't like the idea of anything being kept secret, like WTF!



I really hope you meant that the city is now considering limiting the yellow zone locations, because based on the map, there's just way too many places within residential neighbourhoods that are considered yellow zones. Based on the map, people could put up tents in the middle of an "island" on a cul-de-sac in a residential neighbourhood... which just flat out should not be allowed.


It was mentioned previously in this thread that David Hickey claimed to have not been consulted on the red zone strategy. While I did vote for the Liberals, and still think they are more prepared to step up and help our municipalities deal with the issue of homelessness than the PCs, I have a very hard time believing that minister Hickey wasn't consulted on this strategy.

He was literally on the city council when they were formulating the strategy, and he even talked to the media about the red zone strategy, shortly before the election which saw him elected as an MLA and named minister of housing.

• Video Link

speaking on the red zones plan at King's Square, he said, and I quote:

"this is not going to be full of tents, but there are places in this community that will be."



I still think that was one of the most poorly worded sound-bytes I've ever heard.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Unbelievable the city would cave like this. May elections are coming!

Sounds like Fresh Start has made a tidy little business out of homelessness and doesn't want anybody to rock the boat.

Also sounds like the tail wagging the dog... something the City of Saint John has become well accustomed to over the years I guess.

[bingun]

This week also included the future road repair request to the province. Most of this is resurfacing, but it confirms the intention to create the Rothesay Road/Ashburn Road roundabout in 2028.

The other item is Paradise Row/Somerset Intersection improvement. I wonder what the intention is with that? Traffic trying to go north from Paradise Row onto the highway can often make things a mess, but I am not sure how to solve that.

[sailor734]

Trying to come from Millidgeville on Somerset and get on the highway eastbound can be a mess sometimes too. I've seen Somerset backed up almost to the top of the hill. Part of the problem is that cars wanting to go straight and cars wanting to turn left on Paradise Row to get to the westbound onramp are in the same lane until only 3-4 car lengths from the intersection.....don't know if there is room to extend that left turn lane up the hill.

Although, I'm also not sure there is a solution for too many lights too close together. The lights on the overpass and the lights at Somerset and Paradise are only 6-7 car lengths apart.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by bingun

This week also included the future road repair request to the province. Most of this is resurfacing, but it confirms the intention to create the Rothesay Road/Ashburn Road roundabout in 2028.

The other item is Paradise Row/Somerset Intersection improvement. I wonder what the intention is with that? Traffic trying to go north from Paradise Row onto the highway can often make things a mess, but I am not sure how to solve that.

It’s also terrible for pedestrians, and there are an increasing amount of us that cross there, so I’d love to see improvements - although being a partially provincial responsibility I have extremely low expectations.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Trying to come from Millidgeville on Somerset and get on the highway eastbound can be a mess sometimes too. I've seen Somerset backed up almost to the top of the hill. Part of the problem is that cars wanting to go straight and cars wanting to turn left on Paradise Row to get to the westbound onramp are in the same lane until only 3-4 car lengths from the intersection.....don't know if there is room to extend that left turn lane up the hill.

Although, I'm also not sure there is a solution for too many lights too close together. The lights on the overpass and the lights at Somerset and Paradise are only 6-7 car lengths apart.

If they can't do a round about on that set of lights, they definitely need to give the southbound light the turning signal. That would help move traffic a bit.

The hardest part with a roundabout is I know that semi trucks use that light system quite a bit.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

If they can't do a round about on that set of lights, they definitely need to give the southbound light the turning signal. That would help move traffic a bit.

The hardest part with a roundabout is I know that semi trucks use that light system quite a bit.

I don't think there would be room for a roundabout between the bottom of the rock cut on Somerset and the throughway overpass.