The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[DyAm00394]

Cross Court Pickleball is opening a 4-court facility here in the city. Opening early 2026 at Loch Lomond Mall, (120 McDonald Street). They have other existing locations in Dartmouth and Bedford Nova Scotia plus another one opening in BC.

Their website: https://www.crosscourtpickleball.ca/

[sailor734]

Now we're going to have a provincial "emergency taskforce" on homelessness. The goal is to see some improvement by 2029 Jeeeez!.....great sense of urgency there guys.

https://tj.news/new-brunswick/province-l...k-force-on-homelessness?itm_source=index

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Cross Court Pickleball is opening a 4-court facility here in the city. Opening early 2026 at Loch Lomond Mall, (120 McDonald Street). They have other existing locations in Dartmouth and Bedford Nova Scotia plus another one opening in BC.

Their website: https://www.crosscourtpickleball.ca/

Fantastic news and great central location!

[irisheyes]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

What are the hits exactly going to be in terms of the electoral outcome? I think it's unlikely the Liberals keep even 2 of the 3 KV seats in the next election.

I think there's an upside for the Liberals to do it, because it could help them win all four Saint John seats.

As for everything else you've mentioned, the question shouldn't be why would KV want, but rather, what's better for the whole region, and what's better for the province.

Ultimately, it's a provincial decision to amalgamate, not a municipal one. What KV and Saint John isn't what matters, it's what the government wants that should matter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the provincial government funded multiple studies on municipal governance in the Saint John Region, that all recommended amalgamation as a solution?

Sounds the biggest problem was the Frank McKenna government chickening out on following through with the recommendations of their own studies. People would have long moved on by now, and I bet the CMA population would be bigger than it is today.

Still, there remains a huge opportunity with amalgamation, and it should be pursued by a government with the courage to do the right thing for provinces oldest city with the least cooperate and contributive suburbs.

Not sure why the issue has to always be framed as such a big boogeyman, instead of a sensible policy prescription for sustained growth and development.

Politics is the art of the possible. Many people on this forum, including Uptown Adam, were talking about the new federal Conservative government as a certainty not even a year ago... but look at the reality today. Unexpected things can happen in politics, and Susan Holt might be the premier that finally whips up better solutions for NB's big three cities.

I think we can at least all agree that Saint John has a greater need for government funded solutions than both Fredericton and Moncton. Even fully comprehensive tax reform won't right 50+ years of terrible tax policy, and the city needs far more funding from the province than it has gotten in the recent past. Saint John's demographic decline coincided with the explosion of the KV suburbs, who still overwhelming work in Saint John.

Should the province not work towards solutions to make the situation here in the region more fait and equitable?

Let's just be honest. KV is really quite parasitic and doesn't even compare to Oromocto and Riverview/Dieppe -- Oromocto has its own economy with the military base etc., and Dieppe/Riverview you could easily make a similar comparison where they have some anchored economies.

KV doesn't exist in any world without Saint John. Amalgamation must happen. And the only concession they deserve is that the new name won't be Saint John.

[Pugsley]

The issue with amalgamation is that the last government had two options to drive efficiency, and chose the more chaotic and divisive one. Ontario did it, and Higg's followed them. To this day, Ontario has been dealing with ongoing issues in amalgamated cities versus amalgamated "regions". By regions, I mean the layering of a "super government" above a cluster of communities. Ottawa, as an example, simply became bigger. In other areas, they created super-governments across a county or multiple counties. These, on the most part, have worked better than say "Super Ottawa" in terms of balancing rural and urban populations and creating a unified "sense of place".

So, what should have been done in NB?

Well, I argued years ago that instead of amalgamating and re-naming a bunch of cities, towns, and villages with long-standing historical names and strong family and social heritage into bigger ones, and god forbid create new names for them out of context, that they instead create a cluster of "super government authorities". If you see some of the maps in my YFC-YSJ airport thread, you can see them as they "slipped in" from my broader paper.

Basically, these are like the Regional Service Commissions, but on steroids. You uplift the services to this organization and keep local governance and identity in place. The key services needed to plan and build a broader and more economically viable government would include regional planning, transportation, water, fire, policing, libraries, community centres, waste management, etc. The local communities have a say in specific zoning and local by-laws (with some guiding parameters) but more importantly, they keep their identity.

This is not a new concept. There are similar models like this across Canada, the US, and globally.

In the case of the "Greater Saint John Regional Authority", the aforementioned services would be centralized to ensure equitable disbursement of services to each community: Saint John, Rothesay, Quispamsis, Grand Bay-Westfield, etc. The reduction of multiple services into a single overlaying government unit in terms of economic value is clear - one police force, one fire service, one water system, etc. Greater buying power, less overlap, streamlined operations, and more. But there is also the benefit of more regional direction in terms of planning - of things like roads, water treatment, public transit, connectivity, and more.

Take for example transit. Why on earth is Quispamsis considering their own potential public transit system that does not integrate seamlessly into a regional connection to Saint John? The reason? They are operating in a silo because without a regional authority looking at it from higher up, they can do that. So, we will have more cars on the Highway 1, and no plan for a regional transit solution.] which will eventually mean the province needs to spend more to upgrade the highway. That's an over-simplified example, but I hope I made my point.

Personally, I think the Higgs government botched this because they didn't think of the importance of community identity. People don't want to be told they are not something anymore and instead called something else. The regional authority model would have kept the opportunity for local Mayors and much smaller councils responsible for by-laws and identity, with them also being at the table of a board governing the regional authority. More like community councils that report into and advise the regional authority.

I still believe that people in Rothesay and Quispamsis would have been OK with this, if it meant their tax dollars were resulting in better services and overall efficiency - without loosing their identity.

[Taeolas]

With regards to transit, I believe I heard a long time ago that there is a provincial regulation in place that basically says a City's Transit service can ONLY serve the city.

Now, Codiac Transpo shows that that rule (if it exists) isn't written in stone, but it probably means the urban transit company has some additional hoops to jump through, and likely requires cooperation between the communities involved. (It would always involve some cooperation between the communities; but the current rules may limit that).

One thing Holt might want to do is have the transport minister look at what rules might be hindering transit growth in the province and look at removing those blocks so it is easier to get some regional transportation options going.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

The issue with amalgamation is that the last government had two options to drive efficiency, and chose the more chaotic and divisive one. Ontario did it, and Higg's followed them. To this day, Ontario has been dealing with ongoing issues in amalgamated cities versus amalgamated "regions". By regions, I mean the layering of a "super government" above a cluster of communities. Ottawa, as an example, simply became bigger. In other areas, they created super-governments across a county or multiple counties. These, on the most part, have worked better than say "Super Ottawa" in terms of balancing rural and urban populations and creating a unified "sense of place".

So, what should have been done in NB?

Well, I argued years ago that instead of amalgamating and re-naming a bunch of cities, towns, and villages with long-standing historical names and strong family and social heritage into bigger ones, and god forbid create new names for them out of context, that they instead create a cluster of "super government authorities". If you see some of the maps in my YFC-YSJ airport thread, you can see them as they "slipped in" from my broader paper.

Basically, these are like the Regional Service Commissions, but on steroids. You uplift the services to this organization and keep local governance and identity in place. The key services needed to plan and build a broader and more economically viable government would include regional planning, transportation, water, fire, policing, libraries, community centres, waste management, etc. The local communities have a say in specific zoning and local by-laws (with some guiding parameters) but more importantly, they keep their identity.

This is not a new concept. There are similar models like this across Canada, the US, and globally.

In the case of the "Greater Saint John Regional Authority", the aforementioned services would be centralized to ensure equitable disbursement of services to each community: Saint John, Rothesay, Quispamsis, Grand Bay-Westfield, etc. The reduction of multiple services into a single overlaying government unit in terms of economic value is clear - one police force, one fire service, one water system, etc. Greater buying power, less overlap, streamlined operations, and more. But there is also the benefit of more regional direction in terms of planning - of things like roads, water treatment, public transit, connectivity, and more.

Take for example transit. Why on earth is Quispamsis considering their own potential public transit system that does not integrate seamlessly into a regional connection to Saint John? The reason? They are operating in a silo because without a regional authority looking at it from higher up, they can do that. So, we will have more cars on the Highway 1, and no plan for a regional transit solution.] which will eventually mean the province needs to spend more to upgrade the highway. That's an over-simplified example, but I hope I made my point.

Personally, I think the Higgs government botched this because they didn't think of the importance of community identity. People don't want to be told they are not something anymore and instead called something else. The regional authority model would have kept the opportunity for local Mayors and much smaller councils responsible for by-laws and identity, with them also being at the table of a board governing the regional authority. More like community councils that report into and advise the regional authority.

I still believe that people in Rothesay and Quispamsis would have been OK with this, if it meant their tax dollars were resulting in better services and overall efficiency - without loosing their identity.

Creating a cluster of "super government authorities" would still be a form of amalgamation. What you're suggesting seems to be similar to models in Ontario, in places like the Regional Municipality of Peel, and many other smaller regional municipalities with multiple cities and towns. In the Peel Region, Mississauga, Brampton, and Caledon are all distinct communities within a single regional municipality, with a regional council composed of the councillors and mayors of the constituent cities and towns. I think this is the type of model that could not just work in Saint John, but even Moncton. Greater Moncton already is closer to this type of model than the Saint John Region is. Still, for Saint John, I think the Halifax model might be best. Which still wouldn't mean Rothesay and Quispamsis being wiped off the map. Look at how good Dartmouth has done since amalgamation in 1996... soon to be Canada's "Little Brooklyn".

As for the Higgs government botching the chance for sensible solutions for regional cooperation, "because they didn't think of the importance of community identity"... I think it has way more to do with the simple fact that Higgs and other government ministers live in the KV suburbs and didn't want to change anything that would make things more equal between their wealthy suburban "towns" and less wealthy Saint John. Higgs was the first premier from the Saint John Region in a long time, but he ended up being an incredibly anti Saint John premier.

With how hyperbolic and tribal the people of KV and their simps get when amalgamation in the Saint John Region is even brought up, I'd agree that a softer amalgamation, that creates regional "super governments", would be the easier pill for the bedroom communities to swallow, and would be a far better situation than the current system. Though, I'm not sure a Peel Region model amalgamation would be better for Saint John than the Halifax model. It's pretty hard to argue with the success that Halifax has seen post amalgamation.

If the government was smart about it, they'd present two options and let people in the region vote on which model to follow. That way the people of KV won't be organizing their efforts against amalgamation, but rather for the model of amalgamation that they would prefer to see for their individual communities and the region as a whole.

As for the "Greater Saint John Regional Authority" name. Hard pass on that part.

GSJRA is just not a good acronym, it has two too many letters. Only way to get it down to a 3 letter acronym is to go with a new, one word name for the region.

Moreover, we can't underestimate just how much the residents of the bedroom communities don't want to be part of an entity named Saint John, especially when so many of them take such great pride in their success that enabled them to move away from Saint John, even if that move was only 20 minutes down the freeway, and they still work in Saint John.

Wolastoq and Fundy are the real obvious name choices, and I'd say go with Wolastoq, since it's the name of the river, and the Kennebecasis is a tributary of the Wolastoq (Saint John) River to begin with. I'm sure there are also good names too. Personally, I'd name the regional municipality or super government after the Wolastoq, and rename the airport after the world famous Bay of Fundy.

Not only will going with a new name for the region go down better with the bedroom communities, it will add a big, new name to the map (without wiping Saint John off the map) which will go a long way in helping differentiate this city region from the extremely similarly named "St. John's" in Newfoundland. Which I think most of realize is a pretty substantial branding and marketing challenge for the Saint John Region.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by irisheyes

Let's just be honest. KV is really quite parasitic and doesn't even compare to Oromocto and Riverview/Dieppe -- Oromocto has its own economy with the military base etc., and Dieppe/Riverview you could easily make a similar comparison where they have some anchored economies.

KV doesn't exist in any world without Saint John. Amalgamation must happen. And the only concession they deserve is that the new name won't be Saint John.

The parasite analogy might be considered to be a bit of a strong word choice, but I thought I'd have some fun and consult google image search for a parasite/host diagram.



I'd definitely say there's some similarities between these two pictures.



I think a more symbiotic relationship and more equal economic situation is possible for the region, but only if the province dares to do the right thing.


Whether that means a Halifax style amalgamation, a softer regional amalgamation model like the Peel Region model, or something else... something major has to be done to bring about fairness, equality, and cooperation in our region. The status quo has gone on for far too long, and the City of Saint John has suffered from more than 50 years of demographic decline at the expense of outlying suburbs growth.

Now that Saint John has finally started to see significant population growth again, it's time to build on that further, and set the whole region up for a more stable, sustainable, and strategic growth trajectory.

Saint John, the city at the centre of this region has gone underfunded for far too long. Not only is property tax long overdue, but so is the need for a fair, and equitable regional model. While, I don't find it surprising that many in the bedroom communities don't want to see any major changes happen to make the situation here in the region more fair... I find it pretty incredulous that some Saint Johners don't want to upset the apple cart, and even go out of their way to stick up for the wealthy bedroom communities and their quaint, well funded suburban towns, instead of sticking up for their own city and pushing for a more fair regional model.

Like, when was the last time we had a mayor or even a single Saint John MLA push for amalgamation or new regional model? the 90's?

[adamuptownsj]

Interesting 'why don't they' from Facebook I saw earlier-- to fix congestion at Rothesay Road/Ashburn, why not realign Ashburn to meet the three-way Rothesay Road, Rothesay Avenue, and highway ramps intersection to the south of Fulton Lane? It's already signalized.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Interesting 'why don't they' from Facebook I saw earlier-- to fix congestion at Rothesay Road/Ashburn, why not realign Ashburn to meet the three-way Rothesay Road, Rothesay Avenue, and highway ramps intersection to the south of Fulton Lane? It's already signalized.

Great project for Saint John and Rothesay to work on together... if only there was a way to get Saint John and Rothesay working together better on things like municipal roadworks.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Wolastoq and Fundy are the real obvious name choices, and I'd say go with Wolastoq, since it's the name of the river, and the Kennebecasis is a tributary of the Wolastoq (Saint John) River to begin with. I'm sure there are also good names too. Personally, I'd name the regional municipality or super government after the Wolastoq, and rename the airport after the world famous Bay of Fundy.

Not only will going with a new name for the region go down better with the bedroom communities, it will add a big, new name to the map (without wiping Saint John off the map) which will go a long way in helping differentiate this city region from the extremely similarly named "St. John's" in Newfoundland. Which I think most of realize is a pretty substantial branding and marketing challenge for the Saint John Region.

I disagree. I don't think Saint John needs to change it's name - it needs to change its attitude. I've commented on this before - that Saint John has always been defeatist or over-humbling in how it promotes itself. Aka...NB-ism.

Yes, there can be confusion with "St. John's" in Newfoundland with the "unworldly", but at least it doesn't share this name with another city explicitly - like say St. John's, Newfoundland v. St. John's in Antigua/Barbuda.

Overall, the one and only Saint John needs a marketing makeover and a cultural mindset change starting with the locals. You see this defeatist nature everywhere - with the "Small City, Big Heart" slogan being a prime example, along with the "Greatest Little City in the East" from the 80s and 90s.

We need to stop thinking of our city as little. It isn't a little city and just being in the Uptown, the urban feel certainly punches above its weight. This is Canada's first incorporated CITY, that's a BIG deal. It means it has been a city for longer than any other in Canada. The people of Saint John need to be proud of that history and embrace the fact that they live in a big, important, vibrant, and forward thinking city...not a small one that hopes to punch above it's weight. It already does that!

It is amazing how much a little change in attitude, starting from the top in terms of marketing and the tone of leadership, can change the mindset of the residents. It just needs a visionary with a strategy to do this!

Monctonians don't talk about being smaller than other places - and lets face it, they are no Montreal. Instead, Moncton as a city along with Monctonians as residents talk about growth, opportunity, and the future.

Saint John needs to do the same.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Interesting 'why don't they' from Facebook I saw earlier-- to fix congestion at Rothesay Road/Ashburn, why not realign Ashburn to meet the three-way Rothesay Road, Rothesay Avenue, and highway ramps intersection to the south of Fulton Lane? It's already signalized.

That sounds a lot more expensive than building a roundabout. Isn't that land a swamp/wetland?

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by bingun

That sounds a lot more expensive than building a roundabout. Isn't that land a swamp/wetland?

very much so.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

I disagree. I don't think Saint John needs to change it's name - it needs to change its attitude. I've commented on this before - that Saint John has always been defeatist or over-humbling in how it promotes itself. Aka...NB-ism.

Yes, there can be confusion with "St. John's" in Newfoundland with the "unworldly", but at least it doesn't share this name with another city explicitly - like say St. John's, Newfoundland v. St. John's in Antigua/Barbuda.

Overall, the one and only Saint John needs a marketing makeover and a cultural mindset change starting with the locals. You see this defeatist nature everywhere - with the "Small City, Big Heart" slogan being a prime example, along with the "Greatest Little City in the East" from the 80s and 90s.

We need to stop thinking of our city as little. It isn't a little city and just being in the Uptown, the urban feel certainly punches above its weight. This is Canada's first incorporated CITY, that's a BIG deal. It means it has been a city for longer than any other in Canada. The people of Saint John need to be proud of that history and embrace the fact that they live in a big, important, vibrant, and forward thinking city...not a small one that hopes to punch above it's weight. It already does that!

It is amazing how much a little change in attitude, starting from the top in terms of marketing and the tone of leadership, can change the mindset of the residents. It just needs a visionary with a strategy to do this!

Monctonians don't talk about being smaller than other places - and lets face it, they are no Montreal. Instead, Moncton as a city along with Monctonians as residents talk about growth, opportunity, and the future.

Saint John needs to do the same.

Well I'm with you on basically everything except for the name change part (if we amalgamate into a regional municipality like the Peel Region, let alone like the HRM) Neither Brampton nor Mississauga wouldn't have wanted to be part of a municipality bearing the name of their rival city. The same can be said for KV and SJ. Why step off on the wrong foot with the bedroom communities, when it's just a new name for the region, not a new name for the city of Saint John?

Moreover, the naming confusion between Saint John and St. John's is a much worse marketing situation than the situation between St. John's, NL and St. John's, Antigua/ Barbuda... because first off, since you've brought up the Caribbean... never forget "Love City", Saint John, Us Virgin Islands. lol. But most importantly, don't forget that St. John's, NL and Saint John, NB are especially confused with each other, because they are two maritime cities in same region of Atlantic Canada with extremely similar names. Saint John and St. John's is a much more difficult branding complication to deal with.

Still, keep in mind that the one and only Saint John won't be going anywhere if the region as a whole was to amalgamate under a name like Wolastoq or Fundy. Plus, Wolastoq basically is the same name as Saint John anyways.

I'm sorry to say, but it's going to be much harder to achieve this "marketing makeover" keeping the the Saint John name for the entire region, which remains incredibly similar to the name St. John's, instead of going with a more distinct name for the RM like Wolastoq or Fundy. That's just branding and marketing 101, that if a product or brand has a bad reputation, sometimes a name change is the best course of action. If the Saint John Region was to ever amalgamate, then a name change would be in order... but the name change would be for the region as a whole, not for Saint John, the city at the centre of said region.

Again though, I'm with you... I think the self defeatist, cynical, no can do attitude so common here in SJ and in NB as a province is, by far, the biggest thing holding this city and this province back. "Small City, Big Heart" is an absolute farce of a motto for a city that wants to grow, and wants to even recognize it's history as one of the oldest cities in Canada that has been the biggest city in New Brunswick for the vast majority of the province's history.

This isn't some random, small city... it's a city with a huge history, and tremendous future potential. Unfortunately, the city, region, and province is full of small minded people making a lot of the key decisions that impact this city and impact this region... and a lot of those people here in the region that are making these key decisions don't even live here in Canada's First City... they live out in Rothesay, Quispamsis, and beyond.

I'm not sure how we're ever going to see Saint John and region embrace "big change" if the most obvious solution to help being about that big change (amalgamation) is talked about like such a toxic, hyperbolic, boogeyman that is never going to happen.

The city and region definitely needs to embrace a bigger vision and bigger ideas for future growth and development... but I think the province is key to making that cooperation between the city and its suburbs possible. The residents of KV aren't just going to collectively decide one day that what's good for Saint John is good for KV and start kicking in the millions more to the yearly regional budget that that should have been doing for decades now. It will take a push from the province to get there, and even your idea of "regional super governments" would involve some sort of amalgamation, you're just maybe trying to refrain from using the word? Which I get, lol, but I think we all know to fix the situation here is going to take big, systemic changes, not the same old kicking the can down the road that we've seen for decades now.

I really don't think of our city as little, even though it's the smallest city I've ever lived in. I don't think Saint John is a small city when we have one of the largest container ports in Canada, the largest oil refinery in Canada, one of the most historic cities in Canada, and again, this city was the largest in the province for the vast majority of the provinces's history. Yet, but it seems many of the KV residents that end up micromanaging our city and region in positions of power and influence are totally fine with this "small Saint John" way of thinking that has become pervasive over the last few decades as the city shrunk and their suburbs grew. They might want to take some of the top jobs at the City of Saint John... but they don't want to live in the City of Saint John.

Unfortunately, I don't think these people are ever going to see the forest through the trees as they live out their Kennebecasis riverboat fantasies... having their cake and eating it too. Ultimately, it will be up to the province to help them see it, and make the change possible.


Moncton's current reign is largest city and largest CMA in the province is a mere blip on the radar in comparison to Saint John's long history at NB's primary city. While, I don't think we're ever going to become twice as big as Moncton again, I do think Saint John could pull out ahead of Moncton again in the next 30-40 years, if a lot of things go right... I think a lot of things in life are cyclical, including demographics.

Plus, Saint John could instantly become the largest municipality in the province once again... the province had the courage to "just do it" when it comes to amalgamation.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Moreover, the naming confusion between Saint John and St. John's is a much worse marketing situation than the situation between St. John's, NL and St. John's, Antigua/ Barbuda...

This confusion exists mostly in your own mind.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Well I'm with you on basically everything except for the name change part (if we amalgamate into a regional municipality like the Peel Region, let alone like the HRM) Neither Brampton nor Mississauga wouldn't have wanted to be part of a municipality bearing the name of their rival city.

Well, you should know that the Region of Peel was officially formed in 1974 from the former County of Peel, which was created in 1852. It was named after Sir Robert Peel, a 19th-century British Prime Minister - like many counties across Ontario. So all of these communities were already a part of "Peel County" later "Region of Peel", so it is not like they "made up" a new name, it was inherited. Further, Mississauga's name and origin is rooted in the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation, who migrated to the area in the early 1700s. It used to be known as the Township of Toronto, but in 1965, the Township of Toronto needed a new name since it was next to the 'Bigger Toronto" and selected "Mississauga" after a popular vote.

The City of Mississauga was officially incorporated in 1974, but was formed from the amalgamation of the Town of Mississauga and other surrounding communities - namely Port Credit, Streetsville, Cooksville, and other communities - some equal in size at the time. To this day, there is still resentment from long-time residents in these former communities and several heritage societies focused exclusively on preserving their individual histories and identities.

So, depending how you look at it - some of your arguments are validated and nulled - all at the same time. LOL

Basically, communities and regions evolve over time but few places basically re-name themselves to avoid confusion, but rather further define a sense of place. Region of Peel, which is where most of the power lies, was the defacto County name. The City of Mississauga was based on the original inhabitants and chosen in the 60s because you couldn't have two "Toronto's" beside each other, and despite being amalgamated into a bigger "Mississauga" on the city level, most people are governed, pay taxes to, and get their services from the Region of Peel - be they in Brampton, Mississauga, Streetsville, or Port Credit.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by OliverD

This confusion exists mostly in your own mind.

Envision SJ is like a broken record on this one.

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Great project for Saint John and Rothesay to work on together... if only there was a way to get Saint John and Rothesay working together better on things like municipal roadworks.

Why would Rothesay contribute to redeveloping an intersection that is no where near its municipal boundary?

[sailor734]

The proponents of amalgamation in Saint John might want to ask themselves why the surrounding communities are prepared to fight tooth and claw not to be part of Saint John. Could it be decades of mayors and councils who ranged from merely mediocre to dangerously inept? a legion of poor decisions and fiscal mismanagement that put the city into a financial hole we are still struggling to climb out of? A reluctance to pay far more into the city than they would ever get back in services? I'd say all of those.

[bingun]

I have wanted to write a post about the proposed data centre for the Spruce Lake Industrial Park for a few weeks now, since the EIA approval was confirmed.

Perhaps now is a good time to get us off the topic of amalgamation.


Overview

As part of a presentation in favour of the Spruce Lake Industrial Park rezoning, the CEO of Saint John Industrial Parks presented two proposed projects for the industrial park, one of which was a data centre.

This was backed up by a Letter of Intent from somebody, so it wasn't entirely speculative. Since then, the data centre project has been mentioned again in several other council meetings or committees, specifically highlighting that Saint John is a very competitive location.





What makes Saint John, or specifically the Spruce Lake Industrial Park, a good location for a data centre?


Power Availability & Cost -

While prices have gone up in recent years, New Brunswick still has some of the lowest electricity costs in North America. In Canada, it appears that only Quebec and Manitoba are significantly cheaper.

The industrial park is close to major power generation and transmission infrastructure (Coleson Cove, Point Leapreau, etc.), which is highly advantageous.

Cooling & Climate -

Thanks to the Bay of Fundy, Saint John has a naturally cool climate, especially in the summer when compared to other locations in Canada. We do not get temperatures in the 30s like many inland cities do.

Spruce Lake itself can also offer an abundance of fresh industrial water for cooling when and if required, as it already does for other industrial users.

Connectivity & Latency -

While transatlantic cables to Europe do not pass through Saint John directly, they do so close by in Halifax, which is only a stone's throw away by network standards.

Saint John also has existing high-bandwidth fibre connectivity with the United States, which should minimize latency to high population regions on the East Coast.

Natural Hazard Risk -

Saint John is relatively sheltered from natural disasters such as earthquakes or tsunamis. It also has a relatively low risk of forest fires (at least compared to western Canada and Quebec), and the industrial park's location should shelter it from the worst of any flooding or storm surge.

Severe storms, especially ice storms, could still pose a risk, but some mitigations could be taken to minimize this.

Land & Construction -

Data centres typically require large plots (50-200 acres), which is precisely what the industrial park aims to provide.

Land costs in Saint John are also competitive, especially when compared to other provinces such as Ontario or BC.

Thanks to the city and the province, the industrial park is now zoned correctly, allowing a project to proceed to more advanced planning and applications.

Workforce & Ecosystem -

While I wouldn't say this is Saint John's strength, the city has a large enough industrial and IT workforce to mitigate any concern.

One workforce benefit is that wages for these positions may be lower than elsewhere in Canada, due to the local cost of living, although some may debate this.



Comparable data centre projects

The most comparable example in Canada I could find to the investment described in the presentation is in Calgary, called CAL-3 from eStruxture Data Centers.

This will be the largest data centre in Alberta; however, it is smaller in investment dollars and size. The project is ongoing and set to be completed next year.

https://www.estruxture.com/insights/in-t...t-in-calgary-area-the-largest-in-alberta

I can't find the site plan for this project or more detailed images, but the below render gives you an idea of the size and scale.




Looking to the United States, Meta has a data centre project in Kansas City, Missouri, of roughly $1 billion.

Here are some images/renders of that project.






Another example could be a Google data centre in The Dalles, Oregon, also of a similar size investment.

I believe this image is from when the site was under construction.




Employment & other benefits

The PowerPoint presentation mentioned 750 jobs during construction, which is fairly self-explanatory. However, once operational, it mentions 150 ongoing jobs. What would these jobs be?

Facilities Technicians, Power Engineers, HVAC, Electrical Technicians, NOC operators, Network Engineers, Systems Engineers, Site Security, Health & Safety, Admin, etc.

While the compensation will vary between these roles, these are good-paying jobs, and I would guess many would pay between $70-100K , with senior roles even higher. There would likely also be some spin-off jobs in the local area from business services and other niche services.

As the presentation mentioned, a data centre could add $120-135M to the tax base and generate $3-3.5M annually in property taxes. This would be roughly a 2% increase in overall property tax revenue.

What makes this even more appealing is that the data centre requires few municipal services compared to other properties, such as residential or commercial. While there would likely be some upfront requirements to transport and water infrastructure, once the data centre is operational, it should be a net positive.

NB Power & Saint John Water

One of my biggest concerns with this project is NB Power's ability to service it, at least reliably. However, having another large industrial customer, such as a data centre, would be advantageous for them.

The power requirements are consistent, which allows the utility to justify transmission and generation upgrades. For example, it may aid them in committing to a new generation like a wind farm, as they can guarantee that the wind farm will be profitable at a given price, knowing that the data centre will consume that power.

I tried to estimate the power requirements of a data centre like this, but it's a little challenging without more information. A rough guess could be approximately 100MW.

For reference, NB's peak power requirements in the wintertime are about 3000MW, so this would be about 3%. The Burchill Wind Farm can produce about 42MW, and Coleson Cove about 1000MW.

I am less concerned by Saint John Water, but this could be beneficial to them, too. The water consumption of a data centre depends on its cooling method, but even if it's a highly efficient system, it could use 1000-2000 m³/day.

Currently, Saint John Water distributes about 23,000 m³/day so this would be a 5%+ increase in output. While much of the revenue generated by this consumption would be required to maintain the infrastructure, there could still be a significant margin for profit, which Saint John Water could reinvest into upgrading or maintaining other infrastructure in the city or limit rate rises.