Rail-based Transit Discussion

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Very interesting. Hopefully the new equipment will be a little more spacious and comfortable - and more resilient to Canadian environmental conditions - than the old Renaissance fleet.

Hopefully nobody will propose a screaming deal on mothballed Euro rail rolling stock this time.

[someone123]

I have never seen a good explanation of the delays and scheduling issues with VIA beyond the superficial explanation that CN owns the tracks. It would be interesting to see a more in-depth analysis of the infrastructure and what possibilities there are for twinning rails or adding sidings or bypass routes to improve the scheduling.

Maybe with new rolling stock VIA will be able to look at daily Ocean service or running trains over part of the route, like Halifax-Truro or Halifax-Moncton. I can't remember where I read it but I also saw a wishlist item about reinstating the VIA stop in Bedford. The Ocean stops at lots of small towns in Quebec but there's nothing between Truro and Halifax even though that's one of the most densely developed portions of the route.

I also wonder about building a loop over to the airport around Wellington.

If Halifax had daily Montreal trains, 1-2 more to Moncton daily, plus a few others to fill in the schedule to the airport or Truro that would be pretty good service. Adding in Bedford and the airport would make the services more useful around NS and in the Maritimes.

[ns_kid]

You pose some excellent questions, someone123, but some of the answers are elusive.

VIA issued its ambitious requests for qualification (RFQ) to potential car builders late last year to replace its long distance, regional and remote service (LDRR) fleet. How much money the railroad will ultimately have to spend is unclear and will undoubtedly depend on the builder's price tag. But current estimates suggest something in the range of 300-320 cars, which will not be sufficient to restore daily transcontinental service, much less introduce new services.

To my knowledge, the Carney government has not made any commitments regarding the LDRR project, although it has been generally supportive of rail including expanding the proposed high-speed rail project from Windsor to Quebec City and introducing a cheap "Canada Strong" rail pass program for travellers under 25. How effective this will be, given that during peak periods most VIA trains operate near capacity, is uncertain.

The major source of delays on VIA's Ocean route is the abysmal state of CN's tracks in northern New Brunswick, coupled with freight train interference between Moncton and Halifax. Expect CN to oppose increased passenger train speeds or frequencies, as they have consistently across the system.

I agree absolutely that there is a place for restored regional service between Halifax and Moncton/Saint John and, arguably, Halifax-Sydney. VIA, which almost 50 years after its founding still operates without enabling legislation, lacks an important tool that Amtrak has long enjoyed in the US: a mandate to partner with provincial and municipal governments to operate regional services. Amtrak now partners with 17 states and four commuter agencies to provide regional services, most of them heavily patronized. (Closest to us is Maine, which has supported the Downeaster service since 2001. Last year the state contributed USD 4 million to support five daily return trips linking ten New England towns and cities with Boston, carrying almost 600,000 people. VIA has no equivalent.)

An additional Bedford station stop makes perfect sense, should train frequencies ever expand. VIA has suburban stations serving many cities, including Guildwood, Oakville, Malton and Brampton outside Toronto, Fallowfield outside Ottawa, and Dorval and St-Lambert outside Montreal.

[OldDartmouthMark]

The two “railside” buildings that are located in the area of the old stop only appear to be partially occupied these days, so it could be possible for VIA to use those buildings and the small parking area for a suburban rail stop. The ROW still exists for the second track, to the best of my knowledge, so the bones are there to rebuild and reinstate, if the desire was strong enough.

[OldDartmouthMark]

With my above comment in context, the vicinity of the soon to be built Mill Cove ferry terminal would seem to be a more logical location for a suburban rail station. I am wondering if any consideration has been given to this.

[gcaven]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

With my above comment in context, the vicinity of the soon to be built Mill Cove ferry terminal would seem to be a more logical location for a suburban rail station. I am wondering if any consideration has been given to this.

The PC's platform last year included a feasibility study of rail from Windsor to Mill Cove. I believe Tim Houston also mentioned it in his letter to Mark Carney

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

I agree absolutely that there is a place for restored regional service between Halifax and Moncton/Saint John and, arguably, Halifax-Sydney. VIA, which almost 50 years after its founding still operates without enabling legislation, lacks an important tool that Amtrak has long enjoyed in the US: a mandate to partner with provincial and municipal governments to operate regional services. Amtrak now partners with 17 states and four commuter agencies to provide regional services, most of them heavily patronized. (Closest to us is Maine, which has supported the Downeaster service since 2001. Last year the state contributed USD 4 million to support five daily return trips linking ten New England towns and cities with Boston, carrying almost 600,000 people. VIA has no equivalent.)

I'm not sure what the solution is but I don't think the VIA/CN setup results in a very good outcome for the Maritimes. I think the provinces have to be involved if there is to be some sort of sensible service level that matches up to the demand in the region. I was hoping NS would set up a transit authority similar to GO or TransLink and eventually its mandate could include passenger rail and improvements to the infrastructure paid for with public dollars in exchange for access. I think the feds should also legislate some process by which railway monopolists have to allow reasonable use of their corridors.

Maybe it's a little too cynical but it is hard for me not to think that operations HQed out of Montreal or Toronto will have a tendency to be run as if service to Halifax is another dot on the map like Sayabec or Amqui while they focus on upgrades for what they see as the "main corridor" of Canada along the Toronto-Montreal axis. You can see the disconnect with the (admittedly probably not too serious) talk of implementing a $100B high speed rail corridor terminating in Quebec City (which is very nice but we are not talking about Tokyo-Osaka here). A proportionate investment in NS/NB would be around $7B.

[q12]

From CityNews Halifax:

Nova Scotia takes next step toward passenger rail study

By Mark Hodgins

Posted Aug 19, 2025 12:42:12 PM. Last Updated Aug 19, 2025 12:42:16 PM.

The Nova Scotia government is moving forward with plans to look into passenger rail in the Halifax region.

The province says it has issued a request for standing qualification to find qualified consultants to carry out a feasibility study on passenger and light rail.

The idea is one of the “key actions” included in the recently released Regional Transportation Plan.

“Passenger and light rail has the potential to reshape travel for Nova Scotians by providing a safe, reliable and high-capacity form of transit service,” said Public Works Minister Fred Tilley. “While a project like this could be transformative, it’s also incredibly complex. The passenger rail feasibility study will ensure that any decisions related to rail in the province are researched, evidence-based and tailored for Nova Scotians.”

Government says the study will look into potential regional and urban corridors, put forward design concepts in the selected corridors and will include a long-term transit phasing strategy to support future growth.

Firms have been asked to respond by September 16.

https://halifax.citynews.ca/2025/08/...er-rail-study/

[someone123]

There is a provincial news release as well:
https://news.novascotia.ca/en/2025/0...sibility-study

It doesn't guarantee any outcome but it seems like a good development. The province appears to be on board with the idea the region needs something more and municipal funding alone is not sufficient. It is also good they're looking at corridor development and not just quick fixes. Rail isn't necessarily about what can be done tomorrow but what should be done in the long run with transit-oriented zoning and improvements that can be used for BRT in the interim and so on.

[someone123]

I found this video on The Ocean interesting. His points about Halifax seem a bit uninformed and clickbait-y, and he likes to rant, but still perhaps worth a watch.

• Video Link

One thing I notice is how many people view rail service for the Maritimes in terms of connections to Montreal (or Central Canada I suppose). But there used to be plenty of rail service within the Maritimes, and there's value in Halifax commuter rail, regional rail to Truro, intercity to Moncton, etc.

It's refreshing to see comments from Europeans who note Halifax seems to have a lack of rail service given its size, and it's objectively not really that small of a town.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's refreshing to see comments from Europeans who note Halifax seems to have a lack of rail service given its size.

The NJB guy is actually originally from London, Ontario (a city he never tires of brutally condescending to), and I find there's a real, "screw you, mom and dad, I moved to Europe" vibe to his entire channel. He's openly stated that the only good Canadian city is Montreal and maybe Vancouver, a little bit. His schtick seems to be that if it isn't Amsterdam-level urbanism, it sucks.

He's not wrong about The Ocean being terrible. His little spiel on Halifax was silly and he obviously pieced it together with maximally unflattering footage.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

His little spiel on Halifax was silly and he obviously pieced it together with maximally unflattering footage.

It's kind of funny because the ugliest stuff he could find included an overpass that's gone, a beautiful historic building that's being renovated, and a street that's got large highrise construction sites on both sides. The MetroPark is indeed ugly, and he features it from multiple angles.

I think Montreal which he loves is similar to Halifax overall. Halifax is just smaller, so historic properties for example (which he might not know exists) is 3 blocks instead of 20-30 blocks.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

The MetroPark is indeed ugly, and he features it from multiple angles.

The funny thing is that Amsterdam, which he idealizes (not unfairly, of course, it is amazing) is full of multi-level parking garages. They've just been hidden behind the handsome facades of 18th- and 19th-century buildings.

[Nouvellecosse]

His videos tend to have a lot of positive info but I tend to skip a lot of them - including that one - since I can't take all the snark and negativity.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The funny thing is that Amsterdam, which he idealizes (not unfairly, of course, it is amazing) is full of multi-level parking garages. They've just been hidden behind the handsome facades of 18th- and 19th-century buildings.

I was going to say that it's valid to ask why the MetroPark garage doesn't look nicer and why there isn't more of an attempt to create some traditional looking facades.

Some brick veneer and faux windows to replicate the simple facades nearby on Hollis would make the MetroPark look a lot better.

But in any case with the construction happening there the MetroPark will be more like a one-off rather than part of a larger ugly whole.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The NJB guy is actually originally from London, Ontario (a city he never tires of brutally condescending to), and I find there's a real, "screw you, mom and dad, I moved to Europe" vibe to his entire channel.

Oh yeah, I was referring to YouTube comments from Europeans.

I find the Canadian take is sometimes "obviously you can't expect better, it's Halifax, so remote and small" (sometimes based on little more than stereotypes). Then Europeans say things like "weird that people think it's normal that this metro area of 500,000 has almost no rail service". Actually Halifax is not a small town in the scheme of things.

In a similar vein I find a lot of Canadians (or Americans) "know" Halifax is extremely cold and snowy while visitors from farther away without the same preconceived notions tend to view it as having an okay to somewhat pleasant climate on par with plenty of other world cities. It's not San Diego but it's also not Novosibirsk.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

I find the Canadian take is sometimes "obviously you can't expect better, it's Halifax, so remote and small" (sometimes based on little more than stereotypes). Then Europeans say things like "weird that people think it's normal that this metro area of 500,000 has almost no rail service". Actually Halifax is not a small town in the scheme of things.

It's not just mainline train service either. It's the same thing with rail-based urban transit. I think it's because while there used to be a tram network in practically every hamlet in NA, in the last half century it's very rare to have any type of rail transit in any metro area of under a million. The only exception that i can think of (other than historic tourist streetcars) is KWC. Calgary and Edmonton were quite a bit smaller than they currently are when theirs started, but that was decades ago. But in Europe, it's probably more exceptional for a metro area that size to not have a single tram route.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I was going to say that it's valid to ask why the MetroPark garage doesn't look nicer and why there isn't more of an attempt to create some traditional looking facades.

Some brick veneer and faux windows to replicate the simple facades nearby on Hollis would make the MetroPark look a lot better.

But in any case with the construction happening there the MetroPark will be more like a one-off rather than part of a larger ugly whole.

When MetroPark was proposed, having some street level presence was a big point of debate and led to Cabin Coffee on the corner of Salter and Hollis and a decent resto on the Granville St side which I doubt is still there now. The point being that it wasn’t just a parking structure.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

It's not just mainline train service either. It's the same thing with rail-based urban transit. I think it's because while there used to be a tram network in practically every hamlet in NA, in the last half century it's very rare to have any type of rail transit in any metro area of under a million. The only exception that i can think of (other than historic tourist streetcars) is KWC. Calgary and Edmonton were quite a bit smaller than they currently are when theirs started, but that was decades ago. But in Europe, it's probably more exceptional for a metro area that size to not have a single tram route.

This is true and it makes the criticism of no rapid transit very silly when put into context. However, Halifax is an outlier for transit usage and ridership along the main corridors and has been growing quickly for a while. It would be sensible for the city to have an LRT or streetcar line, or to have largely implemented the 2010's BRT plan, or to have a fast ferry or commuter rail in place, even if few other North American metros of comparable size have those things.

Most US metros also spent a lot more on car infrastructure, while Canadian cities just haven't gotten much transportation investment period in recent decades.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

When MetroPark was proposed, having some street level presence was a big point of debate and led to Cabin Coffee on the corner of Salter and Hollis and a decent resto on the Granville St side which I doubt is still there now. The point being that it wasn’t just a parking structure.

It's not totally without merit and they put on that precast concrete decoration. We can say it is prettier than the TexPark which may have been the yardstick.

But it is still objectively ugly and didn't have to be. If they had made that precast outer portion most of the height of the building and done it in a brick style it would have been less of an eyesore. For now it is a legacy of a low point in downtown development.

I'd argue 90's developments like Barrington Gate are more appealing looking. 2000 was a low point for whatever reason. That brick style (Neptune etc.) was out and precast was in. The Four Points is very ugly as well. Bishop's Landing is okay but they have odd setbacks and grade issues, like Salter's Gate. For 10 years it was impossible to build a normal ground floor on a building for some reason. Part of it was low height limits that encouraged below grade commercial and low ceiling heights to fit more developed square footage in.