HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #141  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2025, 6:50 PM
Yuri's Avatar
Yuri Yuri is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
I mean Detroit and Phoenix are similar sized today. In 1950 Detroit was the fifth largest city in the US and Phoenix was about the same size as Peoria.
I noticed many American forumers don't realize how unique is this phenomenon. Detroit, for instance, could have 8 million people today on the CSA even growing below national average on the past 50 years.

Canada has a Calgary vs Winnipeg, Brazil has Goiânia vs Belém, Germany has Munich vs Ruhrgebiet, Belgium has Ghent vs Charleroi, but all those don't get nowhere close to Charlotte vs Pittsburgh, Atlanta vs Birmingham or Dallas vs Detroit.
__________________
London - São Paulo - Rio de Janeiro - Londrina - Frankfurt
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #142  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2025, 8:16 PM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 11,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werthers View Post
I've always considered Vancouver to be the LA of Canada as they're both the biggest westcoast cities, both having miles of sandy pacific beaches, a decidedly hippy vibe as well as being centers for film and TV production
Vancouver certainly has a beach culture in the summer and is a major film and TV production centre but it is in no way has a hippy vibe. It did in the 60s but basically none at all now. Montreal and Toronto have much larger hippy/alternative scenes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #143  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2025, 8:30 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 9,121
There's just very few big cities and hubs in Canada.

There isn't really a Boston, Detroit, Atlanta, Dallas etc.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #144  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2025, 8:45 PM
Wigs's Avatar
Wigs Wigs is online now
Great White North
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 16,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
There's just very few big cities and hubs in Canada.

There isn't really a Boston, Detroit, Atlanta, Dallas etc.
At least we have more variety than Australia
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #145  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2025, 9:07 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 12,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
I noticed many American forumers don't realize how unique is this phenomenon. Detroit, for instance, could have 8 million people today on the CSA even growing below national average on the past 50 years.
I don't think that's what is unique to the US. No other country in the world had as many large cities as the United States did by 1950. According to Demographia the US had 14 urban areas of 1 million or more in population by 1950. China, the country with the second largest number of major cities, only had 8.

Even today the US still has the second largest number of urban areas with 1 million or more inhabitants (39). China leads with 93 cities and India closely follows the US with 37. Besides the US, China, India, and Brazil are the only other countries in the world to have more 1 million person metros today than the US had in 1950.

It seems fairly impossible to say definitively that no other country had a significant reordering in their #5 - #20 largest urban populations for the simple fact that most other countries didn't document that far down.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #146  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2025, 10:02 PM
Yuri's Avatar
Yuri Yuri is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I don't think that's what is unique to the US. No other country in the world had as many large cities as the United States did by 1950. According to Demographia the US had 14 urban areas of 1 million or more in population by 1950. China, the country with the second largest number of major cities, only had 8.

Even today the US still has the second largest number of urban areas with 1 million or more inhabitants (39). China leads with 93 cities and India closely follows the US with 37. Besides the US, China, India, and Brazil are the only other countries in the world to have more 1 million person metros today than the US had in 1950.

It seems fairly impossible to say definitively that no other country had a significant reordering in their #5 - #20 largest urban populations for the simple fact that most other countries didn't document that far down.
We don't need to be limited to 1 million people urban areas. A 300k urban area back in 1950 was a very important urban centre.

There's nothing like Atlanta and Birmingham both being major and similar sized urban centers in 1950 and now one 6x larger than the other. We don't have this anywhere outside the US. In no other country people move so often as in the US. It's not even close.

Australia, Canada and (White) South Africa are the most similar countries in terms of urban morphology and even though they had some "laggers" (Winnipeg, Adelaide, Port Elizabeth), there's only a very gradual change on urban hierarchy not a completely redrawing.

Or we can talk about Brazil or Soviet Union/Russia, other big/empty continental countries like the US, or Britain, France, Belgium, Germany, places that experienced decline of old industrial heartlands. Some cities grows a bit faster, other a bit slower, but that's it.
__________________
London - São Paulo - Rio de Janeiro - Londrina - Frankfurt
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #147  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2025, 3:54 AM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 9,121
Top 10 Canadian CMAs in 1951 and 2021. .

1951

1. Montreal 1,395,400
2. Toronto 1,117,470
3. Vancouver 561,960
4. Winnipeg 354,069
5. Ottawa 292,476
6. Quebec 274,827
7. Hamilton 272,327
8. Edmonton 173,748
9. Windsor 163,618
10. Calgary 140,645

2021

1. Toronto 6,202,225
2. Montreal 4,201,732
3. Vancouver 2,642,825
4. Ottawa 1,488,307
5. Calgary 1,481,806
6. Edmonton 1,418,118
7. Quebec 839,311
8. Winnipeg 834,768
9. Hamilton 785,184
10. Kitchener-Waterloo 575,847
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #148  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2025, 2:40 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,805
The rise of Calgary and Edmonton = rise of the oil industry
The stagnation of Winnipeg = the relative decline of railways

The rise of Phoenix (and most sunbelt cities) = the availability of air conditioning to the masses
The relative decline of Detroit = the decline of the North American auto industry
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #149  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2025, 4:01 PM
Yuri's Avatar
Yuri Yuri is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Top 10 Canadian CMAs in 1951 and 2021. .

1951

1. Montreal 1,395,400
2. Toronto 1,117,470
3. Vancouver 561,960
4. Winnipeg 354,069
5. Ottawa 292,476
6. Quebec 274,827
7. Hamilton 272,327
8. Edmonton 173,748
9. Windsor 163,618
10. Calgary 140,645

2021

1. Toronto 6,202,225
2. Montreal 4,201,732
3. Vancouver 2,642,825
4. Ottawa 1,488,307
5. Calgary 1,481,806
6. Edmonton 1,418,118
7. Quebec 839,311
8. Winnipeg 834,768
9. Hamilton 785,184
10. Kitchener-Waterloo 575,847
Virtually the same list. And it will be the same in all other countries world except for the US.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
The US will still have the most large cities even if you draw the line at 300k. Most cities means higher probability that some cities grow faster and some slower. There is really no parallel to the situation of the United States from the mid to late 20th century.

Also, US cities all mostly thrive off of immigration. Phoenix didn't grow at the expense of Detroit. You're not going to find a ton of communities in Phoenix of people that once lived in Detroit (except maybe retirement communities). What Phoenix did benefit from was immigration from Mexico. Phoenix was 81% white non-Hispanic in 1970, and 42% white non-Hispanic in 2020. The city of Phoenix was 13% Latino in 1970 and 42% Latino in 2020. Phoenix's white NH population grew by 205,817 and the city's Latino population grew by 611,208 between 1970 and 2020. There is obviously a very good reason why Latino immigration would favor Phoenix over Detroit, and that reason is very unique to the situation of the United States.
My point stands: massive populational shifts, specially involving very well-established middle-class, it's an unique US phenomenon.

And obviously without all the negative domestic migration on the past 50 years, Detroit CSA would be much more populated today. So yes, all metro areas of the Sunbelt benefited from the massive domestic migration from the North. That's crystal clear.
__________________
London - São Paulo - Rio de Janeiro - Londrina - Frankfurt
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #150  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2025, 5:06 PM
Wigs's Avatar
Wigs Wigs is online now
Great White North
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 16,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Top 10 Canadian CMAs in 1951 and 2021. .

1951

1. Montreal 1,395,400
2. Toronto 1,117,470
3. Vancouver 561,960
4. Winnipeg 354,069
5. Ottawa 292,476
6. Quebec 274,827
7. Hamilton 272,327
8. Edmonton 173,748
9. Windsor 163,618
10. Calgary 140,645

2021

1. Toronto 6,202,225
2. Montreal 4,201,732
3. Vancouver 2,642,825
4. Ottawa 1,488,307
5. Calgary 1,481,806
6. Edmonton 1,418,118
7. Quebec 839,311
8. Winnipeg 834,768
9. Hamilton 785,184
10. Kitchener-Waterloo 575,847
2024 estimate for CMAs

1. Toronto 7,106,379
2. Montreal 4,615,154
3. Vancouver 3,108,941
4. Calgary 1,778,881
5. Ottawa-Gatineau 1,660,269
6. Edmonton 1,631,614
7. Winnipeg 941,641
8. Québec 900,343
9. Hamilton 860,266
10. Kitchener-Cambridge-Waterloo 696,417

Source: Statistics Canada
Table 17-10-0148-01  Population estimates, July 1, by census metropolitan area and census agglomeration, 2021 boundaries
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710014801
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #151  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2025, 5:10 PM
Wigs's Avatar
Wigs Wigs is online now
Great White North
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 16,567
Interesting to note
- Toronto is now a 7 million plus person Metro
- Vancouver exceeded 3 million
- Calgary overtook Ottawa by a huge amount
- Edmonton might overtake Ottawa in the near future
- Winnipeg is now ahead of Québec City Metro and both will be 1 Million person Metros in the near future
- Hamilton (incl Burlington) will hit 900k soon
- KCW will rapidly head towards 800k

I look forward to seeing Montreal's Metro over 5 million people
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #152  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2025, 8:44 PM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago -> Austin -> Denver -> Austin
Posts: 5,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
As I hypothesized in one of the other threads, the Canadian-US city equivalents start to fall apart when you consider their historical growth patterns - American cities have been shaped by more defined boom-bust patterns and subsequently have more clearly defined characteristics. Canadian cities have had more gradual growth (and fill more "roles" in their respective regions), and as a result have more of a mix of styles and urban growth patterns from different eras.

Neither Chicago nor LA nor DC or any other city makes a great comparison for Toronto for example, because its urban development has been more like a mix of those (with further local/non-American influences completely unrelated to any of them as well) than it has been like any particular one of them:
This disparity may be a feature of how the American and Canadian constitutions deal with the structure of federalism. Canada’s Constitutional system of Equalization insulates provinces and their cities from boom-bust cycles by redistributing tax dollars to ensure service levels are maintained as equivalent across the entire federal country.

Busts are often caused by local and state governments not having the financial capacity to deliver services to booming populations adequately—e.g. inability to upscale service during boom -> bust. Equalization fixes this problem.

American federalist structure leaves states (and their cities) to their own devices. There’s nobody to share the financial load of service upscale with once a state enters a boom—it’s up to them. Because it’s up to them alone: boom -> bust. In Canada, provinces share the load and so population booms are manageable without leading to a bust.
__________________
Houston: 2.4m (+3.9%) + MSA suburbs: 5.4m (+12%) + CSA exurbs: 200k (+5%)
Dallas: 1.3m (+2%) / FtW: 1.0m (+10%) + suburbs: 6.4m (9%) + exurbs: 566k (+9%)
San Antonio: 1.5m (+6%) + MSA suburbs: 1.2m (+10%) + CSA exurbs: 82k (+3%)
Austin: 994k (+3%) + MSA suburbs: 1.6m (+18%)
Texas (whole): 31.29m (+7%) / Texas (balance): 8.6m (+3%)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #153  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2025, 8:50 PM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago -> Austin -> Denver -> Austin
Posts: 5,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I don't think that's what is unique to the US. No other country in the world had as many large cities as the United States did by 1950. According to Demographia the US had 14 urban areas of 1 million or more in population by 1950. China, the country with the second largest number of major cities, only had 8.

Even today the US still has the second largest number of urban areas with 1 million or more inhabitants (39). China leads with 93 cities and India closely follows the US with 37. Besides the US, China, India, and Brazil are the only other countries in the world to have more 1 million person metros today than the US had in 1950.

It seems fairly impossible to say definitively that no other country had a significant reordering in their #5 - #20 largest urban populations for the simple fact that most other countries didn't document that far down.
Given the continued evolution of the European Union, I’d include them as a single unit as well. Most scholars do still consider the EU a sui generis institution, but many are also now recognizing that it has evolved into a single federal structure in all but name (e.g. it is becoming the equivalent of the US, India, Brazil, Mexico, etc.).
__________________
Houston: 2.4m (+3.9%) + MSA suburbs: 5.4m (+12%) + CSA exurbs: 200k (+5%)
Dallas: 1.3m (+2%) / FtW: 1.0m (+10%) + suburbs: 6.4m (9%) + exurbs: 566k (+9%)
San Antonio: 1.5m (+6%) + MSA suburbs: 1.2m (+10%) + CSA exurbs: 82k (+3%)
Austin: 994k (+3%) + MSA suburbs: 1.6m (+18%)
Texas (whole): 31.29m (+7%) / Texas (balance): 8.6m (+3%)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #154  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2025, 9:01 PM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago -> Austin -> Denver -> Austin
Posts: 5,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
I mentioned on one of those threads (or maybe in this one, on the first pages) that the US urban historical demographic is very unique. No other country showed this pattern where you have some cities booming and others shrinking.

Every country have (and had) faster and slower areas, but nothing as extreme and universal as in the US.
Pretty much every other political system internationally is either:

a. Unitary—usually develops a primate city which is less likely to experience boom-bust cycles, whereas their secondary towns and rural areas do exhibit boom-bust cycles. The primate city starts to bust only if the whole country starts to bust.

b. Federal, but with some constitutional mechanism to redistribute funds among units.

Canada (Equalization)
Mexico/Brazil (General Participations)
India (Finance Commission)
Australia (Horizontalism)
European Union (Cohesion and Structural Funds)
Germany (Länderfinanzausgleich)
Switzerland (Finanzausgleich)
Russia (Equalization and Subventions)

The United States does none of these things, preferring to let states handle their own affairs internally, and any monetary transfers between them are secondary effects of country-wide tax policy’s affects on individuals. In almost every other system, states make their own decisions, but the rest of the states have to help each other out once those decisions have been made. Their federalist design isn’t simply a layering of a federal government over constituent states, but also mandating that the constituent states coordinate their financial affairs directly. Everywhere else uses a form of “cooperative federalism” (their units cooperate horizontally) whereas the United States uses “competitive federalism” (its units compete horizontally) and pretty much all modern federal systems use one of coordinated, coercive, or collaborative federalism to manage the vertical relationship between the federal and state governments (none of which allow competition from the states to the federal level).

Hence why U.S. cities see independent boom-bust cycles more than pretty much anywhere other country in the world. Each of the states essentially acts as a unitary “country” with one primate city (and they do exhibit this pattern of growth as under point a). Because there is no constitutional framework to transfer funds directly from one state to another (as under b), once a state starts to go bust there’s nothing stopping its city from going bust also. This lack of transfers also means that when one state and its primate city go bust, that other states and cities are not on the financial hook for that bust and thus don’t go bust themselves.
__________________
Houston: 2.4m (+3.9%) + MSA suburbs: 5.4m (+12%) + CSA exurbs: 200k (+5%)
Dallas: 1.3m (+2%) / FtW: 1.0m (+10%) + suburbs: 6.4m (9%) + exurbs: 566k (+9%)
San Antonio: 1.5m (+6%) + MSA suburbs: 1.2m (+10%) + CSA exurbs: 82k (+3%)
Austin: 994k (+3%) + MSA suburbs: 1.6m (+18%)
Texas (whole): 31.29m (+7%) / Texas (balance): 8.6m (+3%)

Last edited by wwmiv; Aug 30, 2025 at 9:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #155  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2025, 10:35 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 9,121
Greater Toronto Area population in 2024: 7,670,678
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #156  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2025, 1:53 AM
MonkeyRonin's Avatar
MonkeyRonin MonkeyRonin is online now
¥ ¥ ¥
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 10,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post

1951
3. Vancouver 561,960

Metro Vancouver was bigger than I'd realized then - already half the size of Toronto. There was already a fair bit of development in North Burnaby, New West, and North Van by then (city pop. was 344,833 in 1951).
__________________
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #157  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2025, 7:37 PM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 11,978
The rise of certain Canadian cities against their US counterparts is hardly surprising.

In 1946, the US had 12x our population while today it has 8X. Also, there has been a huge shift in the US population from the Atlantic Seaboard & Great Lakes to the south and west. Canada has had very little movement in it's demographic centre. The West has gained somewhat but a mere fraction of what has happened in the US. Much of the increase in BC & Alberta was due to people from Sask/Manitoba moving there than people from Ontario/Quebec/AC doing so.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #158  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2025, 7:56 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 9,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
The rise of certain Canadian cities against their US counterparts is hardly surprising.

In 1946, the US had 12x our population while today it has 8X. Also, there has been a huge shift in the US population from the Atlantic Seaboard & Great Lakes to the south and west. Canada has had very little movement in it's demographic centre. The West has gained somewhat but a mere fraction of what has happened in the US. Much of the increase in BC & Alberta was due to people from Sask/Manitoba moving there than people from Ontario/Quebec/AC doing so.
The population gap has been narrowing since 1900. Between roughly 1860 and 1900 Canada was actually a country of net emigration but that changed around the turn of the last century. Since then Canada has received more immigrants per capita (not surprising given the smaller raw numbers).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #159  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2025, 8:05 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 9,121
Ontario has also increased its share of the Canadian population since the mid-20th century.

1951

Atlantic 10%
Quebec 29%
Ontario 33%
Prairies 18%
British Columbia 8%

2021

Atlantic 6%
Quebec 23%
Ontario 38%
Prairies 18%
British Columbia 14%
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #160  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2025, 5:53 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 9,121
CMA growth rates

1951-2021:

Montreal +201%
Ottawa +410%
Toronto +455%
Winnipeg +136%
Edmonton +715%
Calgary +950%
Vancouver +370%

1971-2021:

Montreal +49%
Ottawa +130%
Toronto +130%
Winnipeg +48%
Edmonton +167%
Calgary +254%
Vancouver +144%
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:47 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.