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  #21  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2024, 9:33 PM
DTcrawler DTcrawler is offline
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Or we could take some of the $500 Million OCtranspo subsidy and put it towards the $150 million road budget.
Go right ahead, as long as you don't seriously think road widenings are going to help alleviate our worsening traffic situation... aka the reason I keep clamouring about the transit budget.
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  #22  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2025, 2:26 PM
BanjoUnchained BanjoUnchained is offline
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Construction of new Kanata tunnel to disrupt traffic for years

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ears-1.7610537

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Construction of a tunnel under Terry Fox Drive near Highway 417 in Kanata is expected to cause years of lane reductions and traffic detours in the area.

The tunnel project will extend Earl Grey Drive in the Kanata Centrum shopping centre to meet the Didsbury Road intersection on the other side of Terry Fox Drive.

The tunnel is expected to improve traffic flow and provide a new connection to Terry Fox Station, according to the City of Ottawa.

The 140-metre tunnel will include bike lanes and sidewalks. Nearby intersections will also be upgraded.
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  #23  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2025, 2:46 PM
SkeggsEggs SkeggsEggs is offline
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  #24  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2025, 3:46 PM
urbanforest urbanforest is offline
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I don’t know the area so maybe I shouldn’t comment, but that seems like a waste of money to put it plainly. It’s also wild that we’re building slip lanes in 2025.
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  #25  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2025, 4:00 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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I don't see the provision for any LRT extension through that area.

It looks to be a HUGE waste of money, to me.
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  #26  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2025, 4:25 PM
SkeggsEggs SkeggsEggs is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
I don't see the provision for any LRT extension through that area.

It looks to be a HUGE waste of money, to me.
LRT tunnel would be between the 417 off-ramp and the start of the footpath from T Fox down to Earl Grey
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  #27  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2025, 4:53 PM
BanjoUnchained BanjoUnchained is offline
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If it was built like the transit way tunnel at marketplace in Barrhaven, I might understand the purpose and say it was worthwhile. This however just seems like an overpriced road between 2 sides of a mall.
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  #28  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2025, 4:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BanjoUnchained View Post
All the buses that serve Terry Fox Station do so via Kanata Ave (via Lord Byng Way) because there's no good routing out the west exit of the station via Roland Michener, the stretch near Harvey's/Montana's is one way and the road next to Kelseys is a fairly narrow (for a bus at least) unnamed private drive

If you want a bus heading south down Terry Fox from Kanata Station you have to route it back to Lord Byng/Kanata/Katimavik/Terry Fox or Lord Byng/Kanata/Hazeldean/Terry Fox

If you want to route a bus north up Terry Fox from Kanata Station you have to route it Lord Byng/Kanata/Campeau/Terry Fox

Plus the Kanata Ave 417 access is only an Eastbound On-Ramp or Westbound Off-Ramp

If they do this tunnel it opens up some streamlined routing possibilities for OC to/from Terry Fox + some improved 417 access given Terry Fox interchange has 4 ramps

Not smart enough to opine on whether the juice is worth the squeeze but pretty sure that's the OC argument. Not likely to make a huge difference in private vehicle movement

edit: there are no sidewalks on Didsbury/Roland Michener/Herlihey so it also really sucks if you get off the bus at Terry Fox Stn and have to shop or work at Canadian Tire for example

Last edited by Spoonsy; Aug 18, 2025 at 5:09 PM.
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  #29  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2025, 8:31 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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I’m not sure what your point is. Yes the LRT tunnel is to be about 60 metres south (it will run along the gap behind the Dymon Storage), but there is no indication that it has been included in this plan. The path, for example, runs right over where the LRT will travel and goes to the 417 off-ramp. Or, there is no indication that Didsbury E is to be modified to go over the LRT (assuming that it is not simply being chopped and the MTO site abandoned).

What is the purpose of this $28M underpass? As BanjoUnchained says, it is simply a connection between privately held malls. And a road connection already exists at the intersection of Roland Michener and Didsbury E. (Why are there two unconnected Didsbury Roads? This is the type of thing that the City should be fixing.)

How many drivers are actually going to use this underpass? Do they think that drivers coming from the east will exit at Kanata to weave along Earl Grey so that they can go under Terry Fox to get to the Canadian Tire? I think that they will continue to go to Terry Fox and turn onto Didsbury E. From the west, I suspect that the main driving path will continue to be Campeau and the 417.

As for all the cycling and sidewalk infrastructure, I would suggest that that could be added beside the LRT. This plan forces a much longer bridge span over a two-lane road by having cycle-tracks and sidewalks on both sides. A MUP through the LRT underpass would be great for connecting to the transit station. I can’t imagine that there are that many people who are riding their bike to Dymon Storage that full, segregated cycle-tracks are actually required along the road.

This is lunacy exemplified. The NEED to make EVERY street rebuild into a ‘Complete Street’ project is pure, misguided, ideology. I expect that when this underpass was first conceived it was a simple two-lane road underpass for shoppers.

Just build the LRT underpass with a MUP on its north side. Connect that MUP to both sides of Terry Fox with ramps. The LRT underpass plus MUP will be a shorter, cheaper span, and there will be no need to spend years. Then don’t build this road link at all, and fix the roadways within the malls so that they make crossing Treey Fox at Roland Michener/Didsbury E.
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  #30  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2025, 12:09 PM
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1) the city should build the LRT tunnel at the same time, or just build the LRT tunnel and use it for buses, & convert later

2) if they are building this tunnel, make it bus only

3) if they insist on allowing regular traffic then, why are they keeping the straight at didsbury/Roland & Terry Fox.
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  #31  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2025, 1:24 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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My first thought was that this is clearly in advance of LRT phase 3, similar to Bayshore segment of the transitway. However, now that you point out the line extends behind the Dymon, there's not really a straight path for the LRT on this new street.

Granted, OC transpo will enjoy it, perchance?

And maybe it's for a future proofing for LRT Phase 3 never happening. The bus transitway extension along the LRT line ROW works with this layout?

Not that anyone has had the wherewithal to build out Robert Grant for transit, but at least its a wide boulevard for now. God knows the weird inbetween of Kanata-to-Shitsville has zero transit at the moment, and very much gigantic ticky-tacky housing sprouting quicker than wild parsnip along an NCC parkway.

Between Marchwood and Fernbank, I see where the $28M in development charges came from... Now just to get develpers to pay for decades of stroad upkeep also...
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  #32  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2025, 1:41 PM
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I just want to bump Post #1, and point out this great summary of this project:

https://bikeottawa.ca/2024/03/04/ear...-it-worth-20m/

Last edited by rocketphish; Aug 19, 2025 at 1:52 PM.
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  #33  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2025, 1:45 PM
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Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
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I think this opens the possibility of eventually closing the Roland Michener/Didsbury intersection so that it's only right turns in and out. The Terry Fox/Campeau intersection is so close to the highway interchange that when it gets bottled up with traffic they'll probably need that distance to hold traffic volumes in the future.

I also think that extending the O-Train past Terry Fox will be very unlikely when the arena moves downtown, at least for many decades. A Transitway style link via Roger Nielsen would make a lot of sense.
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  #34  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2025, 3:27 PM
hwy418 hwy418 is offline
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
I just want to bump Post #1, and point out this great summary of this project:

https://bikeottawa.ca/2024/03/04/ear...-it-worth-20m/
Interesting read, though they omitted to reveal how many bikes crossed the intersection in the single hour they were out there.
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  #35  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2025, 4:05 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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Originally Posted by hwy418 View Post
Interesting read, though they omitted to reveal how many bikes crossed the intersection in the single hour they were out there.
I would venture to say zero bikes and zero pedestrians. (Before and after the safe-streets intervention at the intersection and, regardless of the tunnel). Having walked once from Terry Fox station, to Terry Fox and Palladium, I can easily say that I'd never do it again until the ENTIRE thing is upgraded, including north AND south of the 417 overpass.

And a NEW rant: You know what would fix traffic here??
1. Link Didsbury and Silver Seven over the 417 for automobiles and pedestrians, fix a lot of f*cking Costco traffic.
2. Link McGibbon Park and Terry Fox Station with a pedestrian/cycling bridge.
3. PERMANENTLY open the Huntmar/Parking Lot 1 on-ramp from the arena.
4. O-Train Phase 2.5: Extension to Terry Fox *mic drop*
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  #36  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2025, 7:04 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Thanks for the Bike Ottawa article, Rocketphish. Lots of good info there. (And, it was interesting to see that they were not keen on the idea of spending so much money on this underpass.)

Bike Ottawa dug up the fact that it was only predicted to cost about $3.5M, when first proposed. This tells me that the Development Charges were set to cover about that amount. Since Development Charges are a one-time charge, I am amazed that staff are telling Councilors (who are blindly parroting it to the media) that the Development Charges for Kanata Centrum cover about 95% of the CURRENT cost. I don’t see how that can be, mathematically. Development Charges from other areas must be included – meaning that other areas are missing out so that this underpass can be (over) built.

The original estimate of $3.5M indicates to me that this was planned to be only two traffic lanes. Although there is definitely a component of inflation, it is the modern ideology of ‘Complete Streets’ that makes this such an expensive project now.

The Kanata Avenue ½ interchange was built AFTER this plan was created. This has allowed a large number of vehicles to exit the Kanata Centrum area and head east on the 417 – without needing to use Terry Fox. As indicated in the quote included in the Bike Ottawa article, the expectation was that vehicles would be using the Terry Fox – 417 interchange to go both east and west. Therefore, a convenient series of right-turns from the ‘mall’ onto south-bound Terry Fox would provide smooth traffic flow. (Notice that both east-bound and west-bound 417 on-ramps peel off to the right from south-bound Terry Fox.) With east-bound people leaving Kanata Centrum via Kanata, Bike Ottawa found that those turning onto Terry Fox from Roland Michener could be cleared in a single light cycle.

IF this underpass is built – something that I hope does NOT happen – it will still be dumping the vehicles into the intersection of Terry Fox and Didsbury/Roland Michener. Instead of queuing on Roland Michener, in the double left-turn lanes, vehicles will be sitting on Didsbury waiting for an opening to turn right onto Terry Fox. When Terry Fox has the green light, there may be few openings, and then, when those turning left from Roland Michener have the green there will be few openings because of the two turn lanes.

Where else can traffic go, traveling to the west? If a vehicle is heading west from Kanata Centrum, it could take the proposed underpass and travel along Earl Grey W – through the three STOP signs – to Didsbury W; but then it still needs to go through the intersection at Didsbury and Campeau. It might be easier to simply cross Terry Fox on Campeau by exiting Kanata Centrum at Herlihey.

All-in-all, there are far better ways for the City to spend money. $28M here, $19M at Baseline and Greenbank. That’s almost $50M of poorly spend money. Instead, my suggestion is to use the money to improve public transit. (Yeah, I highly expect that the changes at Greenbank will do almost nothing for transit. In my opinion, it is simply cramming in excessive bike infrastructure.)

If this money needs to go toward development around Kanata Centrum, build the LRT plus MUP underpass of Terry Fox; end Didsbury E at Earl Grey W (and rename the remnant of Didsbury E and Earl Grey W to either Roland Michener or Herlihey); elevate the LRT over Didsbury W and the Carp River; end the LRT line just east of Huntmar.

Of course, to actually build LRT for that distance would cost MUCH MORE than $50M – but what about building the structures and paving it for buses, in the meantime? Say, $15M for the (smaller) underpass, and $30M for one kilometre of elevated two-lanes. And, if that is too complex, then once the buses are under Terry Fox, have then deke up to the renamed Earl Grey W to get to Didsbury W to Campeau, so that the structure over Didsbury W can be built later without affecting the buses.

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  #37  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2025, 2:29 AM
SkeggsEggs SkeggsEggs is offline
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https://www.kanatanorth.ca/earl-grey...nsion-project/

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The Earl Grey underpass was originally proposed in 1995 as a growth-related project, with 95% of its funding coming from Development Charges, and 5% from tax. Back in 1995 when the roadway/tunnel was designed, development charges were collected for it (from Kanata Centrum’s developers) and held in trust until they could work out all of the legal and land agreements (there were many!). It almost got sorted out in 2013 and then again in 2015. Finally, now in 2025, the original plan is being completed with this roadway. The development charges cannot be used for anything else, as they can only be used for the reason they were collected.
The requested $1.5M in 2013, $10M in 2022, $10M in 2023, and $2M in 2025. I would have assumed that the funds would have came from development charges from those years?
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  #38  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2025, 12:53 PM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
The original estimate of $3.5M indicates to me that this was planned to be only two traffic lanes. Although there is definitely a component of inflation, it is the modern ideology of ‘Complete Streets’ that makes this such an expensive project now.
Why are you making this (unfounded) assumption that the thing that is driving the cost here is the bike infrastructure?

The Bike Ottawa article literally shows the designed layout from 2023, in which the underpass contained 3 car lanes, and no bike lanes at all! (In fact, the Earl Grey/Didsbury intersection is shown to feature a 2-lane slip lane without even a crosswalk!)



I'm not sure whether the project is worth the cost, but at least the final design is far better for pedestrians and cyclists now compared to the 2023 version (and it makes the underpass no wider than the previous version).

I find your position on bike infrastructure to be puzzling. I don't think it's an "ideology" that roads should be designed to be safe for all users.
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  #39  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2025, 4:11 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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I'd like to know the added cost for the 'safe' intersection (and YES, for the record, I'm an avid cyclist).

What is the cost of the extra TWSI's, the Bike Streetlights, the sensors, the bike slip lanes, AND upkeep/snow plowing over 30 years? Compared to a basic intersection.

I find City signage to be so insanely overdesigned as to be obscene in some cases. (O'Connor and Isabella and it's SIXTY-FIVE road signs and EIGHT lamps).

Not to mention, these little zig-zaggy f*cking bike lanes at intersections are the biggest headache to navigate on a bike. For me it turns into a series of ramps and jumps. Heck, on Laurier at Bay I've resorted to biking in traffic to avoid falling off my bike and breaking my arm for all the ramps and flippy-dip jumps. I'm not sure if anyone has biked before who designed these layouts. Similar (or worse) than pedestrians... cyclists prefer to bike in a straight goddam line 99.9% of the time.

Old man rant: And another thing! Pedestrians walk in a straight line also! I've never seen a pedestrian approach one of these intersections without walking through the bike area totally clueless. In a busy environment, these intersections: 1. Don't work efficiently. 2. Are a pain to upkeep (expensive). 3. Are confusing to drivers (honestly why are the bike signals the same scale and close to car signals).

Can we just get a simple, 1.2m wide, grade-separated bike lane, approaching the intersection in a straight line alongside the sidewalk, with a simple curb depression adjacent to the sidewalk, and then a painted lane through the intersection, with a small bike signal either attached to, or just adjacent to the walk signal. I've seen one jurisdiction (is it Montreal? New York? with small red/yellow/green bulbs just above the button to cross) Is that too much to ask? Or are we solving for side-swipes by making cost and headache a bigger issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TransitZilla View Post
Why are you making this (unfounded) assumption that the thing that is driving the cost here is the bike infrastructure?

The Bike Ottawa article literally shows the designed layout from 2023, in which the underpass contained 3 car lanes, and no bike lanes at all! (In fact, the Earl Grey/Didsbury intersection is shown to feature a 2-lane slip lane without even a crosswalk!)


I'm not sure whether the project is worth the cost, but at least the final design is far better for pedestrians and cyclists now compared to the 2023 version (and it makes the underpass no wider than the previous version).

I find your position on bike infrastructure to be puzzling. I don't think it's an "ideology" that roads should be designed to be safe for all users.
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  #40  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2025, 4:36 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Originally Posted by TransitZilla View Post
Why are you making this (unfounded) assumption that the thing that is driving the cost here is the bike infrastructure?

The Bike Ottawa article literally shows the designed layout from 2023, in which the underpass contained 3 car lanes, and no bike lanes at all! (In fact, the Earl Grey/Didsbury intersection is shown to feature a 2-lane slip lane without even a crosswalk!)



I'm not sure whether the project is worth the cost, but at least the final design is far better for pedestrians and cyclists now compared to the 2023 version (and it makes the underpass no wider than the previous version).

I find your position on bike infrastructure to be puzzling. I don't think it's an "ideology" that roads should be designed to be safe for all users.
IF, and I dare say that it is a pretty big IF, that was the ORIGINAL 1995 plan, then I stand corrected, and I apologize for making the incorrect interpretation.

However, do I need to point out that 2023 ≠ 1995? You will notice that in the 2023 plan there are protected bike lanes shown on Terry Fox, at the intersection of Roland Michener/Didsbury. I don’t think that these were being designed into roadways back in 1995. Thus, I suggest that this is not the original plan.

My view on bike infrastructure is easy: Put bike infrastructure where it is the safest and most useful, period.

Why does there need to be full segregated bike-tracks at BOTH Terry Fox at Roland Michener/Didsbury AND under Terry Fox? Is it simply because there is a road rebuild happening, and therefore, based on the ideology that ALL road rebuilds NEED to be built as ‘Complete Streets’, both need to have everything.

And something else that you might have missed is that one lane removed from the 2023 plan does not provide enough space for the added segregated cycle-tracks. The newest plan does have a longer span, and thus, increased cost due to the conversion to a ‘Complete Street’.

If I’m riding west through the unhospitable ‘Jumble-Mall’ that is Kanata Centrum, it is very unlikely that I will detour to take an underpass of Terry Fox just so that I can be redirected back to it. I’d already be mixing with traffic in a dangerous parking lot environment that has ZERO bike infrastructure. I would head to Herlihey to get to Campeau. There are already bike lanes there. (Yes, these could be segregated into cycle-tracks for added safety.)

And something that you seem to have missed is that I am suggesting that a MUP be included under Terry Fox, beside the LRT. I would like to see that MUP NOT END at Didsbury E, but continue behind the Dymon Storage to Didsbury W, at least. If it is studied and deemed safe and useful, I would have no problem also branching the MUP from the LRT underpass up to the Terry Fox – Didsbury intersection along (a renamed) Didsbury E (as designed in the latest plan) – since there would not be an extension of Earl Grey to cross.
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