O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service

[lrt's friend]

I have seen random delays at Leitrim, South Keys, Brookfield, and Carleton, sometimes with delay announcements. This is beyond regular delays to maintain 12 minute schedules. We know that if anything goes awry, schedules will go off in a cascading fashion. Maybe this has improved, I don't know, but I saw problems almost every time I rode or watched Line 2. A few minute delay may not be so noticeable if you can walk from a station.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I think it is impossible to run Line 2 on 10 minute frequency. Most times I used it, there are delays at one station or passing track or another because the trains are misaligned. It may be only be a few minutes but it makes for an unpredictable trip especially when you have to transfer to a bus.

It seems that the number of bus riders have fallen considerably in Findlay Creek but I would need to check out Leitrim Station again.

With all the new buses on Earl Armstrong, they cut service on Route 99. What was the purpose of building the rail line, when local service into Riverside South is so bad. Limebank and Bowesville Stations are so badly located for the 20,000 who live in Riverside South. Yeah, we will eventually get a town centre but this is all designed for people coming from the city than the locals. From what I understand, the proposed rec centre will not be near a station as is the new high school currently under construction.

We have really limited Line 2 for generating local ridership, badly located stations and bad bus connections. Even the first phase of the town centre under construction is low density and auto centric with an unpleasant pedestrian access to the station. Phase 2 on Limebank is more of the same. Hopefully, they might add a sidewalk that currently does not exist

I mean.. Fiddle Creek in regards to transit is an Effing joke. The train station isn't even in the neighborhood. The one time I went there at southbound rush hour intentionally, had 4 trains dump and couldn't even fill an artic at 4pm. How we had 4 trains on a 30 minute bus service is another question.

People waiting at bus stop when I got there and then 2 more trains after me. I was expecting a crush load but it wasn't even that bad.

I widened a driveway there with a totally legit permit for interlock and had 3 people stop and take my number to do the same. After 1k worth of parking tickets which I can assure you is a theme, you just pony up the bucks to widen the driveway which at least buys you some peace outside of the winter months.

Invest in Stinson stocks maybe?

[MountainView]

Airport Station from the Parkade:
(July 18, photo by me)

[MountainView]

Bowesville Station:
(July 18)

[ponyboycurtis]

I was driving down Earl Armstrong the other day and seeing a train whipping through the fields in between Bowesville and Limebank was kind of funky. Just greenery and this red and white livery.

Does anyone know why they cleared and graded the fields directly to the east of Bowesville station? I know there is a community/sportsplex going across the street or close to it.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

I was driving down Earl Armstrong the other day and seeing a train whipping through the fields in between Bowesville and Limebank was kind of funky. Just greenery and this red and white livery.

Does anyone know why they cleared and graded the fields directly to the east of Bowesville station? I know there is a community/sportsplex going across the street or close to it.

The sports complex, which will be completely inaccessible by public transit, will be on the north side of Earl Armstrong, roughly halfway between Bowesville and Limebank.

I believe the cleared field directly east of Bowesville station is for future Park n' Ride expansion. Ready to be paved when/if demand warrants.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by MountainView

The sports complex, which will be completely inaccessible by public transit, will be on the north side of Earl Armstrong, roughly halfway between Bowesville and Limebank.

I believe the cleared field directly east of Bowesville station is for future Park n' Ride expansion. Ready to be paved when/if demand warrants.

Park and Ride was my guess based on its positioning and uh.. vibe?

Speaking of Park and Rides.. whats the deal with the gravel lot by Uplands station. I think it was a staging area for construction but it also seems to be built like a roughed in PnR. Given that there is no PnR at SK and Greenboro seems to be always near capacity a PnR here would make sense.

Assuming the train would travel more than 1 station of course.

Just sayin its a weird lot for a staging/construction trailer lot. Is there an entrance to the gravel lot on the north side of Uplands station or a passthough? Possible overfllow parking for EY Center? It probably 2/3rds the size of EY parking lot.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

Park and Ride was my guess based on its positioning and uh.. vibe?

Speaking of Park and Rides.. whats the deal with the gravel lot by Uplands station. I think it was a staging area for construction but it also seems to be built like a roughed in PnR. Given that there is no PnR at SK and Greenboro seems to be always near capacity a PnR here would make sense.

Assuming the train would travel more than 1 station of course.

Just sayin its a weird lot for a staging/construction trailer lot. Is there an entrance to the gravel lot on the north side of Uplands station or a passthough? Possible overfllow parking for EY Center? It probably 2/3rds the size of EY parking lot.

I've seen it used as an overflow lot from time to time for the EY centre. There is a passthrough the station, but it's fenced off and locked (it was designed for some sort of future development to the the north) so people have to walk down Uplands whenever the lot is used

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by MountainView

The sports complex, which will be completely inaccessible by public transit, will be on the north side of Earl Armstrong, roughly halfway between Bowesville and Limebank.

I believe the cleared field directly east of Bowesville station is for future Park n' Ride expansion. Ready to be paved when/if demand warrants.

[hwy418]

Took a ride last week for the first time since it reopened and I have to say it was painfully slow! Pokey as hell and the dwell times at some stations pushed 3-4 mins. It took 1.5hrs to travel from Blair to Limebank station! Not impressed at all.

They really should have double tracked from Bayview to South Keys or Leitrim and left the last two stops for a future extension. The pilot project was better!

I wanted to try Line 4 as well, but ran out of time. Wondering if Line 4 could have been implemented as an automated people mover instead - I would hate to be the poor soul driving that train back and forth all day!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by hwy418

Took a ride last week for the first time since it reopened and I have to say it was painfully slow! Pokey as hell and the dwell times at some stations pushed 3-4 mins. It took 1.5hrs to travel from Blair to Limebank station! Not impressed at all.

They really should have double tracked from Bayview to South Keys or Leitrim and left the last two stops for a future extension. The pilot project was better!

I wanted to try Line 4 as well, but ran out of time. Wondering if Line 4 could have been implemented as an automated people mover instead - I would hate to be the poor soul driving that train back and forth all day!

It was incredibly stupid not to double track the original section. We've talked about Dow's Lake at nauseum. It's strange that the busiest section, the northern section, is largely single tracked while the south section is all double tracked.

It's probably a good thing they didn't do Line 4 as a people mover so we could one day integrate it to Line 2, but that won't be easy because of the single tracking and the half trains running on Line 4.

I wish Line 4's airport station had been kept in the parking garage to open up the possibility of looping it around the airport grounds, serving hotels and parking.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by hwy418

Took a ride last week for the first time since it reopened and I have to say it was painfully slow! Pokey as hell and the dwell times at some stations pushed 3-4 mins. It took 1.5hrs to travel from Blair to Limebank station! Not impressed at all.

They really should have double tracked from Bayview to South Keys or Leitrim and left the last two stops for a future extension. The pilot project was better!

I wanted to try Line 4 as well, but ran out of time. Wondering if Line 4 could have been implemented as an automated people mover instead - I would hate to be the poor soul driving that train back and forth all day!

I said that since opening day, but it is a train so we should be cheering. We could have had a much better system but made certain decisions between 2012 and 2018 to value engineer the network to save money. This is the result. Now we have Line 2 running every 24 minutes in certain hours which will make travel times even longer. Hopefully this is only temporary but it demonstrates feasibility to right size capacity in less busy hours. Of course, bus transfers will be horribly unreliable.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Now we have Line 2 running every 24 minutes in certain hours which will make travel times even longer. Hopefully this is only temporary but it demonstrates feasibility to right size capacity in less busy hours.

You're joking, right? Please take your uninformed blind cynicism elsewhere.

It's temporary. To install newly mandated monitoring hardware. It was announced weeks ago. There's a notice about it on OC Transpo's home page. https://www.octranspo.com/en/news/article/o-train-line-2-service-adjustments-in-july/

"feasibility to right size service"

You are aware that service hours on Line 2 are being b EXPANDED in the fall, right?

You may as well say that this demonstrates the feasibility of upgrading the line without having to close the entire thing. How's that sound, huh?

[ponyboycurtis]

The last couple times I rode Line 2 I had some interesting notes. Riding with my friend to go see fireworks it was his first time and the screens were displaying incorrect information. The next ride I took there was a long delay of maybe 7 or 8 minutes at Gladstone and the screens from that point on never moved on from the 'Important Announcement"

Perhaps most annoying was the fireworks last Wednesday, l found myself at Bayview at 12:15 and there were no more trains. I had walked from Rideau as well since it was a nice night. I didn't realized the last train departs at 11:55. I never would have guessed.

I don't need 12 minute service at that hour but a little taste after midnight seems reasonable.

After so much capital expenditure we now have to skimp on operating expenditure.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

You're joking, right? Please take your uninformed blind cynicism elsewhere.

It's temporary. To install newly mandated monitoring hardware. It was announced weeks ago. There's a notice about it on OC Transpo's home page. https://www.octranspo.com/en/news/article/o-train-line-2-service-adjustments-in-july/

"feasibility to right size service"

You are aware that service hours on Line 2 are being b EXPANDED in the fall, right?

You may as well say that this demonstrates the feasibility of upgrading the line without having to close the entire thing. How's that sound, huh?

I’m not sure why you are so negative about lrt’s friend’s comment. Line 2 IS running at 24-minute frequency at certain times – thus theirs is a true statement. It does show that OC Transpo COULD reduce the frequency to 24 minutes at other times IF ridership demands were very low. (Remember, Line 1 was 5-minute service; until it became 10-minute service.)

Your point about upgrading track-side hardware while maintaining a reduced service is also valid. You could have made that comment, positively, without making personal digs. Obviously, lrt’s friend is not happy about what they consider a degraded service from OC Transpo (both train and bus), and they complain about that openly. But complaining about service is different from personal attacks. Slinging ‘mud’ often reduces the respect for the ‘slinger’ more than for the recipient.

[J.OT13]

Hoping the glitches we've seen will be solved within a year or two. Still a much smoother launch that Line 1.

It's certainly an imperfect project, but this is far better than R2, if maybe very minor, if no, improvements for the pre-Stage 2 catchment area (Gladstone and Walkley are good additions, bigger trains, but it sounds like it's slower than before).

[Richard Eade]

I agree. Line 2 is still a ‘Work in Progress’. There were a number of compromises made, but, overall, it is mostly functional. And the remaining issues are being worked on.

My disappointments:

• I would have preferred more frequent, shorter trains. I fear that, during times of low ridership, having huge trains MIGHT be the excuse to reduce service frequence.
• (If I could turn back time and increase the budget) I would have preferred a single continuous line that followed the Line 4 alignment south of South Keys and then passed UNDER THE AIRPORT TERMINAL AND RUNWAY to northern Riverside South, turning east to go through Finlay Creek to Bank Street, then south to turn west at the Casino, then along Earl Armstrong/Chapman Mills to Barrhaven Centre. I think that such routing would solve the ‘Extra Link to the Airport’ problem and provide some circulator service within the southern neighbourhoods. Yes, it would mean a longer ride into the city for people from the southern-most leg, but it also provides a redundant downtown link for Barrhaven, and encourages more development around the Airport, Bank-south, and the Casino.
• Why were ‘Hot Box’ (high bearing-temperature) detectors not specified from the beginning since they have been a Federal requirement since 1981? Was someone trying to cut corners because, technically, the trains were not ENTERING the city, but were within it all the time? These should have been required in the contract and installed during the rebuild shut-down.
• The final outcome of the line is slower than I had hoped. This might be helped by more/longer twinned-track sections.

Further comment (WARNING – includes FANTASY ITEMS, which might be disturbing to some):
I am glad that the City did not rush into double-tracking Line 2 north of Mooney’s Bay. My view is that the downtown core will always be a bigger destination/origin for ridership than LeBreton Flats. Yes, there will be times when there will be crowds at LeBreton, but I believe that good transit to/from the core is more important. Thus, I am fine with leaving the northern portion of Line 2 as it is (or, better still, at 10-minute frequency) between Mooney’s Bay (for the Baseline BRT) and Bayview (for Line 1/3).

Money that was going to double-track that segment should go towards tunneling the ‘Main line’ under Bank Street, from Billings Bridge to Wellington (or, better, extended across the Ottawa River into Gatineau). This will create a 10-minute-headway subway under the northern portion of Bank Street, to provide reliable transit from the south into the core, including to Lansdowne. Since the tracks south of Mooney’s Bay would be completely double-tracked, it would be possible to interline the (improved to 10-minute) train from Bayview all the way down to the south end, during peak needs. (Since the City insists on widening the Airport Parkway, put the few remaining buses there and, from South Keys, use the existing Transitway RoW for double tracks to Mooney’s Bay – and keep the existing track running during construction.)

[CanadaGoose]

Here's another rotten comment about Line 2:
- When is 5G cellphone service coming to Line 2? Signal gets rough in the trenched sections and somehow in the open fields of Limebank. Line 1 has Telus towers and wifi service at almost all the stops.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Line 2 IS running at 24-minute frequency at certain times – thus theirs is a true statement.

Okay. I never suggested that it was untrue.

There was however a key piece of context missing about why this is true, which is also a true statement.

It does show that OC Transpo COULD reduce the frequency to 24 minutes at other times IF ridership demands were very low. (Remember, Line 1 was 5-minute service; until it became 10-minute service.)

I don't think it has ever been in question whether OC Transpo could remove trains from service, but the implication that this may not be temporary is uninformed FUD. If you are aware that there is change in service, then why would you openly speculate about the circumstances of those changes in such a cynical way without even doing the bare minimum amount of research into it?

It is one thing to complain openly about the state of the system, it is another to rely on personal anecdotes and straight up misinformation to forward those narratives. This also isn't new; it's a consistent pattern of behaviour. So I think calling it a joke, while certainly pointed, isn't an unfair criticism of the content of those posts.

I think we're all unhappy about the state of transit in Ottawa, but most of us aren't making up reasons for it at the same time.

Slinging ‘mud’ often reduces the respect for the ‘slinger’ more than for the recipient.

Call it mud if you like, but I'm slinging facts.
If blind cynicism is a now a trusted source on this forum then we may as well pack it up.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I agree. Line 2 is still a ‘Work in Progress’. There were a number of compromises made, but, overall, it is mostly functional. And the remaining issues are being worked on.

My disappointments:

• I would have preferred more frequent, shorter trains. I fear that, during times of low ridership, having huge trains MIGHT be the excuse to reduce service frequence.
• (If I could turn back time and increase the budget) I would have preferred a single continuous line that followed the Line 4 alignment south of South Keys and then passed UNDER THE AIRPORT TERMINAL AND RUNWAY to northern Riverside South, turning east to go through Finlay Creek to Bank Street, then south to turn west at the Casino, then along Earl Armstrong/Chapman Mills to Barrhaven Centre. I think that such routing would solve the ‘Extra Link to the Airport’ problem and provide some circulator service within the southern neighbourhoods. Yes, it would mean a longer ride into the city for people from the southern-most leg, but it also provides a redundant downtown link for Barrhaven, and encourages more development around the Airport, Bank-south, and the Casino.
• Why were ‘Hot Box’ (high bearing-temperature) detectors not specified from the beginning since they have been a Federal requirement since 1981? Was someone trying to cut corners because, technically, the trains were not ENTERING the city, but were within it all the time? These should have been required in the contract and installed during the rebuild shut-down.
• The final outcome of the line is slower than I had hoped. This might be helped by more/longer twinned-track sections.

Further comment (WARNING – includes FANTASY ITEMS, which might be disturbing to some):
I am glad that the City did not rush into double-tracking Line 2 north of Mooney’s Bay. My view is that the downtown core will always be a bigger destination/origin for ridership than LeBreton Flats. Yes, there will be times when there will be crowds at LeBreton, but I believe that good transit to/from the core is more important. Thus, I am fine with leaving the northern portion of Line 2 as it is (or, better still, at 10-minute frequency) between Mooney’s Bay (for the Baseline BRT) and Bayview (for Line 1/3).

Money that was going to double-track that segment should go towards tunneling the ‘Main line’ under Bank Street, from Billings Bridge to Wellington (or, better, extended across the Ottawa River into Gatineau). This will create a 10-minute-headway subway under the northern portion of Bank Street, to provide reliable transit from the south into the core, including to Lansdowne. Since the tracks south of Mooney’s Bay would be completely double-tracked, it would be possible to interline the (improved to 10-minute) train from Bayview all the way down to the south end, during peak needs. (Since the City insists on widening the Airport Parkway, put the few remaining buses there and, from South Keys, use the existing Transitway RoW for double tracks to Mooney’s Bay – and keep the existing track running during construction.)

They've already cut service to 24 minutes at times it seems, with low ridership periods as a justification. I would have preferred more double tracking to achieve 8 minute frequencies instead of doubling the length of platforms. It's not a 1 to 1 comparison in terms of investment, but it would have offered a much better service, and one that's more flexible. In addition, it would have been nice if Line 4 wasn't incompatible with Line 2 (complications of running a mixed fleet of full trains and half trains).

For the Bank Street subway, I have a similar vision; keep the old Line 2 Alignment Bayview to South Keys (instead of Greenboro) as a short urban line that connects the Bank Subway and Line 1/3 with an 8 minute frequency. Bank Subway can branch off at South Keys to take Line 4 and the Riverside extension.