I'm simply obsessed with Chicago

[LA21st]

I think he said he lives in Koreatown, which can be dirty in parts. Chicagos downtown is pretty clean compared to most, so I ddnt really see a knock on LA.
In my exoerience it probably is the cleanest major downtown. Entire city? Eh, thats just harder to say.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Being from Toronto (which is very similar to Chicago's climate), I don't find the winter weather bad at all. It's the length of the winters and overall sense of dreariness that sets in by late winter/early spring that get to me, on the other hand. December-February is fine, but when it starts dragging on into March or April it can get a little depressing.

x8 billion.

It's not the depth of the cold. That shit is easy.

It's the length of it.

It's those March mornings when you leave the house and it's still only 18 fucking degrees out.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

What strikes me about the buildings is how absolutely colossal in scale they are.

Yeah there are a few spots in and around DT Chicago where you hit some point where the scale of it is really striking. Almost all of Manhattan is this way but Chicago is the only other place in the United States where this happens.

I do think that Chicago's position in the national consciousness has dipped a bit in the last 20-30 years since the sort of shows that used to be set or filmed in Chicago (sit-coms, Oprah, trash talk shows like Jerry Springer) aren't popular anymore. WGN probably still exists but it's lost the position it had when it was on basic cable around a lot of the United States and introduced a national audience to Bozo the Clown, every Cubs game, etc. Also the Siskel & Ebert show was really popular. Add to that syndicated opinion writers out of the Chicago papers.

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

x8 billion.

It's not the depth of the cold. That shit is easy.

It's the length of it.

It's those March mornings when you leave the house and it's still only 18 fucking degrees out.

It's also the wind coming of the lake. It can be brutal when it is 0 degrees, and the wind is whipping. I remember going out to a bar to watch the 1985 Bears in their Superbowl win and it was brutal getting home.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

It's a world-class city, an American gem and extremely well-rounded, doing quite well in almost everything.

It isn't remotely clean (never understood that one) and its comparatively low(er) RE prices are pretty self explanatory. Chicago has had terrible RE returns; easily the worst among the biggest U.S. cities.

I found Chicago very clean. I guess it’s the cleanest big city I’ve ever been too.

———————

Regarding bad winters, I assume Toronto is as bad as Chicago, and it’s growing like crazy. I think people can deal with it.

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by Yuri

I found Chicago very clean. I guess it’s the cleanest big city I’ve ever been too.

———————

Regarding bad winters, I assume Toronto is as bad as Chicago, and it’s growing like crazy. I think people can deal with it.

True. Though if you are Canadian, your other options for weather upgrades within the country are rather slim. The only major city that has noticeably better weather is Vancouver, which is as expensive as heck.

Still, to your point, I feel Chicago (and Midwest towns in general) have sometimes leaned in too hard to the excuse that people don't want to move here, or are eager to leave, due to the weather. Midwest cities/metros like Minneapolis, Indianapolis, and Columbus have maintained relatively modest and healthy growth rates despite similar climates.

[Steely Dan]

^ yeah, I feel like the long cold winters are more of a factor in why so many people leave Chicago; not as much of a factor in why the city isn't attracting new immigrants like it once did.

[MolsonExport]

As a Canadian from Montreal, the cold doesn't bother me too much. I'll take a -10C day with glorious sunshine over +5C with indeterminable overcast skies, any day of the week.

In fact, I preferred Montreal's winters to what I now experience in London (the boring one, in Ontario, which gets standard lower Great Lakes Winters, given our position 30 minutes from Lake Huron, 30 minutes from Lake Erie, 40 minutes from Lake St. Clair, and 70 minutes from Lake Ontario. A standard winter consists of 12 days of dreary grey skies, alternating with 1 day of sunshine...grey skies, grey snowbanks, grey buildings, grey subdivisions, grey people, grey dogshit....Grey days, from November though to mid-May. Much warmer winters than Montreal, but they suck. Goddamned endless low pressure systems. Hot summers, especially this year, but extremely sticky, with bad air quality to boot.

I'm looking forward to a few days in Chicago later this month. Absolutely loved it, last time I was there in 2023.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Regarding bad winters, I assume Toronto is as bad as Chicago, and it’s growing like crazy. I think people can deal with it.

Toronto has the second best winter of any major Canadian city. Chicago probably has the worst winter of any major U.S. city (unless Minneapolis is major city).

Toronto is growing due to immigrants, which is obviously something decided at the national level. Immigrants to Canada gravitate to Toronto bc it's by far the dominant metro and is English-speaking. The U.S. has like a dozen Torontos, and even the minor metros are pretty full service in terms of jobs and amenities, so the U.S. immigrants are a lot more spread out.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Yuri

I found Chicago very clean. I guess it’s the cleanest big city I’ve ever been too.

———————

Regarding bad winters, I assume Toronto is as bad as Chicago, and it’s growing like crazy. I think people can deal with it.

Chicago doesn't get any regulating temperatures from the lakes unlike all other major great lakes cities since the winds come from the northern plains. So it's not really the same as Toronto.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by The North One

Chicago doesn't get any regulating temperatures from the lakes unlike all other major great lakes cities since the winds come from the northern plains. So it's not really the same as Toronto.

Chicago and Toronto have very similar overall climates.

Chicago is a little warmer and ranier/more humid in the summer, Toronto is a little colder and snowier in the winter, but those differences are quite marginal. They are very much in the same general climate wheelhouse. We're not comparing Phoenix to Fairbanks here.

[Northern Light]

I always wonder with SSP............ so many of you engage in these discussions without bringing in any facts.

How about we start with this, Chicago attracted 96,000 immigrants last year (2024) that's not exactly nothing........

And just shy of 300,000 since 2020.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/chicago-a...gQIIBAX&usg=AOvVaw3Wxjj2LCQIGRSBaHbqqOQI

Its the loss of 347,000 residents to other parts of the U.S. that has the population stagnating or declining slightly.

***

So the importance of that is that Chicago is still attractive to those from outside the U.S.

Perhaps less so that in earlier generations, or a percent of the resident population, but Chicago certainly isn't ignored by newcomers.

****

I haven't encountered sufficient quality data on reasons for emigration from Chicago.

Certainly, some are leaving for lower tax rates.

But I find it unlikely that that is the driving issue for most.

Moving is not a cheap process, and one would have to save a lot of money to make that back.

This piece looks at the decline in the black community in Chicago over the last couple of decades:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23780231241266511

The above shows that the largest number of black residents exiting Chicago move to other parts of Illinois or Indiana.

So for that group, we can rule out taxes for most, weather for all.

However, the next largest relocation site is Georgia, primarily the Atlanta area.

Followed by Mississippi.

Atlanta has a been a hot market and growth centre all around for a while now, its less clear to me what would motivate folks to move to Mississippi unless that's all on that HGTV show, Hometown, LOL

****

To the extent that out migration appears to be higher in lower-income groups, who reside, disproportionately in higher crime areas, I'm inclined to think that may play a role, but that's conjecture on my part.

I wonder what else might be playing a role.

[SIGSEGV]

I recommend not believing anything from the Illinois policy institute...

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

So the importance of that is that Chicago is still attractive to those from outside the U.S.

Perhaps less so that in earlier generations, or a percent of the resident population, but Chicago certainly isn't ignored by newcomers.

I don't recall anyone in this thread claiming that Chicago is ignored by immigrants these days.

But on a relative basis, within the context of the US, Chicago went from one of the top 3 cities for immigrants generations ago, to now barely even breaking the top 10, if memory serves.

It's stature as one of the nation's leading immigration magnets has certainly taken a bit of a hit over recent decades.

[Dale]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Yeah there are a few spots in and around DT Chicago where you hit some point where the scale of it is really striking. Almost all of Manhattan is this way but Chicago is the only other place in the United States where this happens.

I do think that Chicago's position in the national consciousness has dipped a bit in the last 20-30 years since the sort of shows that used to be set or filmed in Chicago (sit-coms, Oprah, trash talk shows like Jerry Springer) aren't popular anymore. WGN probably still exists but it's lost the position it had when it was on basic cable around a lot of the United States and introduced a national audience to Bozo the Clown, every Cubs game, etc. Also the Siskel & Ebert show was really popular. Add to that syndicated opinion writers out of the Chicago papers.

Chicago Med. Chicago Fire. Chicago PD. Can’t think of another city so featured on the Telly.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Dale

Chicago Med. Chicago Fire. Chicago PD. Can’t think of another city so featured on the Telly.

And more recently, and more popularly, "The Bear" has put Chicago front and center on the small screen once again.

And it's not just a show about a story that incidentally takes place in Chicago. Chicago itself is one of the characters of the show, perhaps even too heavy-handedly so (I can't recall any outdoor on-location scenes that don't have an L train rumbling by in the background, for example).

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I don't recall anyone in this thread claiming that Chicago is ignored by immigrants these days.

But on a relative basis, within the context of the US, Chicago went from one of the top 3 cities for immigrants generations ago, to now barely even breaking the top 10, if memory serves.

It's stature as one of the nation's leading immigration magnets has certainly taken a bit of a hit over recent decades.

I couldn't find a good statistic for the U.S. as a whole on where new immigrants are settling with hard numbers attached.

If you can refer me to one that would be appreciated.

I found the numbers for Chicago itself; for the last few years, though some may find the source suspect, i gather they got their data from the Census.

But what one would need to see is a much longer trendline, 20yr, 30yr etc.

As well as the same data for other cities in order to have a better sense of Chicago's relative draw, or lack thereof.

*****

I will say, I didn't think the gross numbers on growth were that bad, its really the out migration that seems more notable.

On that, again, I note, that a meaningful portion of out migration from Chicago appears to be in-state or to Indiana, indicating weather is not a big factor for those people at least.

The largest (out of State) single area people appear to be moving to in larger numbers (this is the Black community) is Georgia..... is that really because of the weather? I'm suspicious on that point.

[pip]

To jump on the clean bandwagon. Just got back from a month in Boston. Chicago is clean, it's always the first thing I notice. And not just downtown. It's also cheap to own. Literally to duplicate my place in Boston in a comparable neighborhood the price would triple. Chicago is also vibrant, not just in the tourist areas.

[Crawford]

Can someone define clean? I still don't get it.

Are you saying if you pick a random Chicago arterial, it will have less garbage blowing around per sq. ft. than elsewhere? So Stoney Island Ave. in Chicago will be conclusively "cleaner" than Dorchester Ave. in Boston, with fewer potato chip bags and gum wrappers?

Maybe I don't view with enough nuance, but the only places in the Western world where I see unusual levels of cleanliness are upscale suburban U.S. planned communities and a few (usually traditionally Protestant) parts of Northern Europe. Usually boring areas with a lot of old, nosy people. Everywhere else, there's no way in hell I'm walking down an avenue barefoot. And I am NOT getting such a feel on the Chicago Red Line, or on Roosevelt Road.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Can someone define clean? I still don't get it.

Are you saying if you pick a random Chicago arterial, it will have less garbage blowing around per sq. ft. than elsewhere? So Stoney Island Ave. in Chicago will be conclusively "cleaner" than Dorchester Ave. in Boston, with fewer potato chip bags and gum wrappers?

Maybe I don't view with enough nuance, but the only places in the Western world where I see unusual levels of cleanliness are upscale suburban U.S. planned communities and a few (usually traditionally Protestant) parts of Northern Europe. Usually boring areas with a lot of old, nosy people. Everywhere else, there's no way in hell I'm walking down an avenue barefoot. And I am NOT getting such a feel on the Chicago Red Line, or on Roosevelt Road.

I walked on literally every single street of the Loop and we don’t see any rubbish on sidewalks. Not even a tiny thing. That’s remarkably clean for a busy Downtown of a big city.

Not that I’m obsessed about spotless clean cities. Downtown SP is very dirty and I love it. Ditto for very interesting neighborhoods in Berlin or London.