Statistics Canada Reports II

[savevp]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I can't think of any other cities off the top of my head that concentrate so much of a national population concentrated into one metro, to the exclusion of others. Australia comes to mind, but both Sydney and Melbourne have about one in five Australians each, so there's a bit of balance between them; neither is dominant.

London, Paris, Lisbon, all of the Nordics, Athens, most of the Slavic capitals, most of Latin America, most African capitals, Tokyo, Manila, Jakarta, most of Central Asia and the Middle East.

Look up 'primate cities' you will discover that Canada's population is unusually diffuse, despite Toronto's exploding size.

[niwell]

Crunching some numbers I was surprised that the proportion of Canadians living in the Greater Golden Horseshoe is about the same as British in the London commuter belt. And more than French in the Île de France. Though calculations vary considerably depending on how you calculate those broader metro areas. And a big difference in the relative importance those cities have in their respective countries.

As noted above there are lots of examples where the primate city houses a larger proportion of the population. But we could be somewhat unique in what percentage lives in Toronto's sphere vs the dominance of the city in the country as a whole. As most of those other examples don't have a host of secondary cities that are still important (and one that dominates it's own region!).

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by savevp

London, Paris, Lisbon, all of the Nordics, Athens, most of the Slavic capitals, most of Latin America, most African capitals, Tokyo, Manila, Jakarta, most of Central Asia and the Middle East.

Look up 'primate cities' you will discover that Canada's population is unusually diffuse, despite Toronto's exploding size.

Yes though most if not all of those are also the political not just financial and cultural capitals so in that sense Canada is much more diffuse. Culturally Montreal also holds its own.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I can't think of any other cities off the top of my head that concentrate so much of a national population concentrated into one metro, to the exclusion of others. Australia comes to mind, but both Sydney and Melbourne have about one in five Australians each, so there's a bit of balance between them; neither is dominant.

Seoul in Korea dwarfs all other cities in Korea.

Tokyo with 35 million in the metro area has over a quarter of Japan’s population and is definitely the centre of the universe here.

Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki, etc… there are countless countries that have more of their population consentsated in their largest city than Canada.

Santiago, Buenos Aires, etc…

Canada, Australia, and especially the US, China and India are the exceptions, not the rule.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I can't think of any other cities off the top of my head that concentrate so much of a national population concentrated into one metro, to the exclusion of others. Australia comes to mind, but both Sydney and Melbourne have about one in five Australians each, so there's a bit of balance between them; neither is dominant.

There are many, but Seoul takes the cake.

South Korea pop. 51 million

Seoul pop. 26 million.

Over half of the country lives in Metro Seoul.

[MolsonExport]

Seoul is both the heart and s(e)oul of Korea.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by savevp

London, Paris, Lisbon, all of the Nordics, Athens, most of the Slavic capitals, most of Latin America, most African capitals, Tokyo, Manila, Jakarta, most of Central Asia and the Middle East.

Look up 'primate cities' you will discover that Canada's population is unusually diffuse, despite Toronto's exploding size.

London and Paris metros actually don't have have the concentration Toronto does, but anyway, everybody calm down; I just said "off the top of my head" not "there are none."

[someone123]

Usually the definition I've seen of primate city is that it's at least twice the size of the next-largest city. This is true of, say, Mexico City or Dublin. It's not true of Toronto within Canada because Montreal is more than 1/2 the population. Some provinces and regions do have primate cities. For example, Toronto qualifies for Ontario.

Having a relatively high fraction that's well under 50% of the population doesn't really tell you how much a city dominates. Imagine a country 30% live in one city and 30% live in another. Part of what's different in Canada is the very high urbanization rate. Australia is similar.

I do think Toronto is headed for primate city status but isn't there yet. It was roughly tied with Montreal in the 70's.

[MolsonExport]

And Toronto has grown into existing cities, merging with them (Hamilton, Oshawa, etc.), which inflates the population count sweepstakes. Montreal, Vancouver, and most other large Canadian cities do not share this (a glaring exception being the three-headed monster that is KWC).

[MolsonExport]

Population numbers aside, London (UK) and Paris (France) are the primate cities in their countries to a much greater extent than Toronto is to Canada. I think Toronto is more like the New York City of Canada, than the London (England) of Canada.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by svlt

When you put it that way, A "Greater Toronto" of the US would be akin to having a nearly 60M population megalopolis. It would be bigger than LA, NY and SF all combined.

Alternatively, if there were a "Reykjavik of America" it'd have around 200 million people.

Originally Posted by someone123

Usually the definition I've seen of primate city is that it's at least twice the size of the next-largest city. This is true of, say, Mexico City or Dublin. It's not true of Toronto within Canada because Montreal is more than 1/2 the population. Some provinces and regions do have primate cities. For example, Toronto qualifies for Ontario.

Having a relatively high fraction that's well under 50% of the population doesn't really tell you how much a city dominates. Imagine a country 30% live in one city and 30% live in another. Part of what's different in Canada is the very high urbanization rate. Australia is similar.

I do think Toronto is headed for primate city status but isn't there yet. It was roughly tied with Montreal in the 70's.

While technically obviously not the case, the way I kind of see it is that Canada has two primate cities: Toronto for English Canada and Montreal very much so for French Canada. Each is the undisputed economic & cultural centre of either sphere, with limited overlap (and more than double the size of the next largest city).

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Alternatively, if there were a "Reykjavik of America" it'd have around 200 million people.





While technically obviously not the case, the way I kind of see it is that Canada has two primate cities: Toronto for English Canada and Montreal very much so for French Canada. Each is the undisputed economic & cultural centre of either sphere, with limited overlap (and more than double the size of the next largest city).

This is definitely true. Toronto acts as the primate city of english Canada for things culturally. Economically the language barrier matters less so it's less dominant.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Seoul is both the heart and s(e)oul of Korea.

Just like the song by Huey Lewis and the News.

[svlt]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Seoul in Korea dwarfs all other cities in Korea.

Tokyo with 35 million in the metro area has over a quarter of Japan’s population and is definitely the centre of the universe here.

Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki, etc… there are countless countries that have more of their population consentsated in their largest city than Canada.

Santiago, Buenos Aires, etc…

Canada, Australia, and especially the US, China and India are the exceptions, not the rule.

Being geographically huge helps. Toronto cannot control or be a power center for Vancouver, or the North, or even the Maritimes, and the cultural and language barrier makes it impossible to exercise control over Quebec. Canada is a massive country and there will need to be other nodes.

Then by way of not having your capital city as your primate city also diffuses the node of power - Ottawa for Canada (and regionally too seems to hold the case - Victoria, Edmonton, Regina, Quebec City, Fredericton all are more important than their second fiddle population indicates), Canberra for Australia, DC, Brasilia, Ankara, Astana.

London, Paris, Seoul, Tokyo, they're huge and they're capitals so they're going to be by far the most important cities of their countries.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

While technically obviously not the case, the way I kind of see it is that Canada has two primate cities: Toronto for English Canada and Montreal very much so for French Canada. Each is the undisputed economic & cultural centre of either sphere, with limited overlap (and more than double the size of the next largest city).

But on the flip side of this, Montreal CMA is home to over half of the total population of Quebec and is much closer in size to Toronto than the 1:3 French:English ratio suggests. Vancouver is over half of BC. Toronto isn't half of English Canada, it's actually under 50% of Ontario alone, and a little under 25% of English Canada. If there were a big effect to being the primate city of English Canada, it would make sense for it to be disproportionately large for Ontario.

It's not quite true either that Canada is partitioned culturally or economically into English and French parts. Montreal has a decent number of national HQs, is the most bilingual city in Canada, and is pretty well-known nationally. To some degree it is a "big city" for the eastern 1/3 of the country, not only Francophones.

While Toronto is the largest business hub in Canada, I don't think it's the Moscow or Mexico City of Canada. Canada just isn't that politically or economically centralized (unlike Russia) and it has very diverse and wide-ranging geography (unlike most countries with one big dominant city).

[ciudad_del_norte]

I think the size of the country and population distribution definitely impacts the significance of Toronto relative to other dominant cities in smaller countries.

While I would agree there is a certain level of economic and cultural centralization it's also just too far away to have the same relevance for a majority of the country outside of Ontario. Quebec is the closest but also maintains enough of it's own orbit.

A bit paradoxical, but Toronto has never felt to me like the big city of the place that I live. Yet I would agree it is the big city of Canada, and I live in Canada. For me it's always been a somewhat distant idea in the way that I don't think is true for many smaller countries with a similar level of population concentration.

I like Toronto but I don't really personally identify with it. I find in many geographically smaller countries with a dominant city-region, even if people despise the centre of power it's still something they identify with as a place they may need to go occasionally for access or participation in certain elements of "their place".

I think Canada is so spread out that it necessarily becomes more multipolar, even if one region has a dominating population concentration.

[rdaner]

I am looking forward to the 2026 Census as I think that the density for cities is going to skyrocket and put us firmly in the UK end of the spectrum and much further away from the US.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

And Toronto has grown into existing cities, merging with them (Hamilton, Oshawa, etc.), which inflates the population count sweepstakes. Montreal, Vancouver, and most other large Canadian cities do not share this (a glaring exception being the three-headed monster that is KWC).

Vancouver is growing into Abbotsford.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Vancouver is growing into Abbotsford.

And both are growing into Chilliwack.

It’s obviously on a much smaller scale, but I have always felt that the Fraser Valley is like a mini Southern Ontario in some respects. Three CMAs of very different sizes strung closely together separated by farm land and quickly growing into each other.

[hipster duck]

The Fraser Valley is very poorly connected to the rest of Metro Vancouver by all modes of transport.

I'm not saying Southern Ontario is like Japan or Switzerland, but if Abbotsford and Chilliwack were in the Golden Horseshoe, then Highway 1 would be 3 lanes per direction + HOV and there would be a southern West Coast Express that ran at least at rush hours in peak direction plus 4 midday trips, and there would be a coach bus running every hour from Chilliwack to Abbotsford and then express to Waterfront.