The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

How is it a good thing to keep vacant land under-assessed, Pugsley? It seems a lot of vacant property in NB isn't just under-assessed, it's critically under-assessed.

Wouldn't assessing these vacant properties at fair market value generate a lot more tax revenue for the city?

Well, I could think of one major reason beyond what I said, and that these properties might force generational families to suddenly become homeless.

I don't know if you are a long-time NB resident, but there are lots of land parcels that have been passed down generation upon generation. Farmland, wooded areas, and more. Not necessarily owned by families "with means". Even a $1000 increase in taxes would be a substantial financial burden for many NB-ers and there may not be a big enough audience yet for this many lots hitting the market all at once.

So basically, the province is likely thinking about micro-economic conditions which could result in significant socio-economic issues for the province.

Example: Imagine you inherited land over the years which you've been able to manage tax-wise with a rather modest income source - say CPP and a modest pension. If these assessments go up, so do your taxes. If you cannot afford the taxes, combined with inflation, electricity costs and more, you'd be forced to sell. If you and everyone else does this, there would be more supply than demand, and you'd likely get a piece of land sitting for months or even years. All the while, you'd need to be paying taxes. If you cannot afford these taxes, you'd eventually have to make the hard decision to either 1) take out a loan or 2) vacate.

I don't think people realize how many families in NB are actually impacted by this scenario. There are lots of properties and "back lots" that many lower income families own within city lots or rural areas through birthright, not investment - where even a slight increase would be devastating for them financially.

This is likely very much on the minds of the politicians as they try to find a solution.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by OliverD

How much time and effort do you think it takes property developers to study the feasibility of building something on a piece of land? In some cases it's necessary to bring in engineers and consultants to figure out if and what can be built. It also entails consulting with city staff, possibly about rezoning the land or seeking variances. Putting in this time and money is where a substantial part of the value of developable land comes from, and I don't think anyone should expect that the assessment service should be doing this.

For all we know that particular parcel of land has limited development value. At this point it's 100 hilly wooded acres with no city services. Who knows what it is truly worth.

How much time and effort to you think they currently put into accurate assessments on more straightforward properties like residential homes? Because it seems like they can't even do that accurately, when there's been many articles the past few years about how inconsistent SNB assessments are for residential property in NB cities.

I think you're making this way more complicated than it needs to be. Like all of the things you've listed above are more for developers and city planners to worry about getting into, than the SNB tax assessment department.

No, I don't think SNB tax assessors need to order new geological surveys, new engineering reports, or consult with city staff in order to come to the determination that over 100 acres of vacant land, located directly below one of the most desirable suburbs in the province, is critically under-assessed at $98,900. I think given the years of experience many of them in the department have assessing property, they could easily justify re-assessing that property, and many other vacant properties, at many times their currently under-assessed values... no need for expensive reports and consultations.

I think the only thing stopping them from more fairly assessing vacant land with huge development potential is a culture of corruption, and an aversion to change within SNB and the provincial legislature, the latter of which has dragged its feet on passing comprehensive tax reforms for more than half a century.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

No, I don't think SNB tax assessors need to order new geological surveys, new engineering reports, or consult with city staff in order to come to the determination that over 100 acres of vacant land, located directly below one of the most desirable suburbs in the province, is critically under-assessed at $98,900. I think given the years of experience many of them in the department have assessing property, they could easily justify re-assessing that property, and many other vacant properties, at many times their currently under-assessed values... no need for expensive reports and consultations.

My point is that that sort of information is often absolutely crucial to determining the fair market value of a property. You just keep blathering on about this particular parcel yet the only thing you can cite is its location. You do tend to hyper fixate on things so I shouldn't be surprised.

I think the only thing stopping them from more fairly assessing vacant land with huge development potential is a culture of corruption, and an aversion to change within SNB and the provincial legislature, the latter of which has dragged its feet on passing comprehensive tax reforms for more than half a century.

I think we can all agree that the assessment system is deeply flawed but saying there's a "culture of corruption" is quite the accusation unless you have something to back that up.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Well, I could think of one major reason beyond what I said, and that these properties might force generational families to suddenly become homeless.

I don't know if you are a long-time NB resident, but there are lots of land parcels that have been passed down generation upon generation. Farmland, wooded areas, and more. Not necessarily owned by families "with means". Even a $1000 increase in taxes would be a substantial financial burden for many NB-ers and there may not be a big enough audience yet for this many lots hitting the market all at once.

So basically, the province is likely thinking about micro-economic conditions which could result in significant socio-economic issues for the province.

Example: Imagine you inherited land over the years which you've been able to manage tax-wise with a rather modest income source - say CPP and a modest pension. If these assessments go up, so do your taxes. If you cannot afford the taxes, combined with inflation, electricity costs and more, you'd be forced to sell. If you and everyone else does this, there would be more supply than demand, and you'd likely get a piece of land sitting for months or even years. All the while, you'd need to be paying taxes. If you cannot afford these taxes, you'd eventually have to make the hard decision to either 1) take out a loan or 2) vacate.

I don't think people realize how many families in NB are actually impacted by this scenario. There are lots of properties and "back lots" they many lower income families own within city lots or rural areas through birthright, not investment - where even a slight increase would be devastating for them financially.

This is likely very much on the minds of the politicians as they try to find a solution.

Force generational familes to become homeless?!? I'm talking about vacant land, yo!

There's also a huge difference between 100+ acres of vacant land directly adjacent to Kennebecasis Park and 100+ acres of vacant land in the middle of Charlotte County, or rural areas of Saint John County, nowhere near a major urban area. I'm only suggesting that SNB starts to fairly assess vacant land based on fair market prices, not unfair, higher than fair market prices... Though, if rising assessments force some families to sell their spare, vacant land within major CMAs like Saint John, Fredericton, and Moncton, so be it!

In the case of Saint John, I think it's pretty clear that most of the the large swaths of vacant land left within the PDA are not owned by low income families. Moreover, I think it's pretty clear that some vacant land within the PDA is clearly more valuable with more development potential than others, and that's mostly based on one thing: location, the most basic value proposition in real estate.

The province and SNB should first prioritize fairly assessing vacant land in prime locations within the major PDA's of the province, much of which is currently critically under-assessed by SNB.

SNB had no problem jacking up assessments on homes in West Saint John.

I don't think it's these "land rich, income poor" residents that are stalling the province and SNB from reforming the system to start fairly assessing vacant land in prime locations within the primary development area of Saint John and other cities.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by OliverD

My point is that that sort of information is often absolutely crucial to determining the fair market value of a property. You just keep blathering on about this particular parcel yet the only thing you can cite is its location. You do tend to hyper fixate on things so I shouldn't be surprised.



I think we can all agree that the assessment system is deeply flawed but saying there's a "culture of corruption" is quite the accusation unless you have something to back that up.

It's far from the only vacant parcel within the city of Saint John's PDA that is critically under-assessed, there's many around Saint John that can be easily found on the SNB website... this one is just perhaps one of the best (or worst) examples of vacant land being under assessed, considering it's more than 100 acres next to the single most desirable suburban area in the region, assessed at $98,900.

The things you mentioned might be important in determining the fair market value of a property, but all of that is far from necessary for SNB to more fairly assess the value of vacant land. They're either a department full of experienced property evaluators or they aren't. However, it sounds like more than anything, what's really holding SNB back from fairly assessing vacant properties is the current tax system, and not their inability to fairly determine the value of vacant land. The assessed value of the large property posted above, in a highly desirable area, is less than $1000 an acre, but there's no way it would sell for that price on the open market.

Is using the phrase, "culture of corruption", a bit strong? Maybe. But I also don't think it's a totally unfair assessment on why the assessment system is so fundamentally flawed. When residential homes in NB face huge assessment increases, while vacant and industrial properties face marginal increases, or no increases at all, I think it speaks to a culture of corruption within the provincial government. If a system is not fair, is it corrupt?

There's quite a lot of articles and reports out there by good journalists and researchers, which make a pretty convincing cases that the property tax assessment system is inherently unfair, arbitrary, or even corrupt. I don't think my use of the phrase, "culture of corruption", is exactly a shocking or baseless opinion.

[jonny golden]

I was just looking at the Fundy Quay webcam for the first time in ages. I'm really impressed with the progress. You can start to see/imagine how this whole area will be amazing when it's fully built out. It'll present a much nicer image for the cruise ship passengers, and hopefully some good retail outlets for them & locals both.

Even though I'm not from Saint John(Moncton), I love to see good development in the port city. As far as I'm concerned, we all win when each city succeeds.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

I was just looking at the Fundy Quay webcam for the first time in ages. I'm really impressed with the progress. You can start to see/imagine how this whole area will be amazing when it's fully built out. It'll present a much nicer image for the cruise ship passengers, and hopefully some good retail outlets for them & locals both.

Even though I'm not from Saint John(Moncton), I love to see good development in the port city. As far as I'm concerned, we all win when each city succeeds.

Thanks for the dose of optimism.

I think it's true we win as a province when each city succeeds.

I also think a competitive spirit can be a good thing too! Saint John could certainly benefit in trying to better emulate Moncton's recent success in high rise development.

Saint John MP, Wayne Long, posted this video today:

• Video Link

[cdnguys]

[IMG] [/IMG]

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

I was just looking at the Fundy Quay webcam for the first time in ages. I'm really impressed with the progress. You can start to see/imagine how this whole area will be amazing when it's fully built out. It'll present a much nicer image for the cruise ship passengers, and hopefully some good retail outlets for them & locals both.

Even though I'm not from Saint John(Moncton), I love to see good development in the port city. As far as I'm concerned, we all win when each city succeeds.

Excited for what Lafford has in store for uptown at Tin Can beach! A developer that gets things done.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Almost reaching the full height with the steelwork that has happened so far this week!

[bingun]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Force generational familes to become homeless?!? I'm talking about vacant land, yo!

There's also a huge difference between 100+ acres of vacant land directly adjacent to Kennebecasis Park and 100+ acres of vacant land in the middle of Charlotte County, or rural areas of Saint John County, nowhere near a major urban area. I'm only suggesting that SNB starts to fairly assess vacant land based on fair market prices, not unfair, higher than fair market prices... Though, if rising assessments force some families to sell their spare, vacant land within major CMAs like Saint John, Fredericton, and Moncton, so be it!

In the case of Saint John, I think it's pretty clear that most of the the large swaths of vacant land left within the PDA are not owned by low income families. Moreover, I think it's pretty clear that some vacant land within the PDA is clearly more valuable with more development potential than others, and that's mostly based on one thing: location, the most basic value proposition in real estate.

The province and SNB should first prioritize fairly assessing vacant land in prime locations within the major PDA's of the province, much of which is currently critically under-assessed by SNB.

SNB had no problem jacking up assessments on homes in West Saint John.

I don't think it's these "land rich, income poor" residents that are stalling the province and SNB from reforming the system to start fairly assessing vacant land in prime locations within the primary development area of Saint John and other cities.

I did do some more reading on this earlier, and it essentially boils down to the fact that the land is assessed based on its current use rather than its potential use, which is why most vacant lots are assessed so low relative to the sale price, which is often based on speculative development.

I know you feel very passionately about the lot near K Park, but I think there are far better examples, especially within the city's core.

The lot below on Germain Street is one of my pet peeves. I believe it was one of the private parking lots that was shut down many years ago, and it has been vacant ever since, despite being in a fantastic location and being a considerable size.

What is the tax disincentive for leaving the lot vacant? $350 a year. Little more than a rounding error for the owner.



The old Lyric Theatre on Charlotte Street has a more reasonable assessment in comparison. Still, it's also a rounding error for Irving Oil, and they have kept it vacant ever since they finished building their HQ and no longer needed the space for vehicles and construction equipment.

[adamuptownsj]

Vacant *serviced* land, in the PDA, particularly in the central peninsula and old north end, is hideously under-taxed: and I say this as an owner of some of it! The assessments on the Germain and Charlotte lots above, plus many others, are bewildering and far too low. Development is not incentivized by annual property taxes on the most desirable street in the uptown being lower than the cost of dinner and drinks for four, pre-tip. A ton of these sites don't even need water/sewer extended from the mains to the property line, new power poles, drainage plans, or any other traditional development barriers. They're unironically shovel-ready.

I don't, however, think we need to jack up assessments in parts of the city that don't have roads, let alone water, sewer, or power. Building this infrastructure in Current Year is expensive, and servicing it is not exactly cheap for the city to do afterwards, even if developers shoulder most of the initial costs. We already have IIRC the most linear feet of paved road per person in any Canadian municipality, 10-15x the number of pump stations Moncton or Fredericton, and a dozen other items we've all heard a thousand times.

Of course, we shouldn't be discouraging anyone from developing places like the end of Highland Road, the Hunters Cove/Drury Cove area, the chokepoint-creating gaps between Forest Hills/Lakewood Heights/Golden Grove, etc. Or the half-built-out subdivisions like Monte Cristo, Westgate, and Cedarwood. But the tax revenue in these will come from subdivision and sale, when and if market conditions justify it. As mentioned above, assessments are based on what something is worth today, not what it would hypothetically be worth if Developer John Smith built out a whole new community (presumably up to the assessor's imagination). We have enough issues with subjectivity and property tax rates as it is.

[jonny golden]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Excited for what Lafford has in store for uptown at Tin Can beach! A developer that gets things done.

I really hope it's something significant, he certainly is capable. The only thing is is that he has a lot on his plate right now, so I don't know what his time frame will be for Saint John. It'd be nice if he could start another project (SJ) while he's still working on his Moncton & Sackville developments.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

I really hope it's something significant, he certainly is capable. The only thing is is that he has a lot on his plate right now, so I don't know what his time frame will be for Saint John. It'd be nice if he could start another project (SJ) while he's still working on his Moncton & Sackville developments.

Sackville is IIRC well underway, and Lafford started both it and preliminary Gateway work long before the Three Sisters seemed to be wrapping up. Maybe he gets it going once Three Sisters are ~95% done and leased, Sackville is topped out, and Gateway has started. I couldn't imagine he wants four active projects in early stages at once, but I could see him prepping the site once Gateway starts going up.

Does Lafford have anything else on the go right now? I feel like I'm missing something, perhaps smaller than these projects.

[jonny golden]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Sackville is IIRC well underway, and Lafford started both it and preliminary Gateway work long before the Three Sisters seemed to be wrapping up. Maybe he gets it going once Three Sisters are ~95% done and leased, Sackville is topped out, and Gateway has started. I couldn't imagine he wants four active projects in early stages at once, but I could see him prepping the site once Gateway starts going up.

Does Lafford have anything else on the go right now? I feel like I'm missing something, perhaps smaller than these projects.

You're probably thinking of Fredericton. There was a report of him purchasing a piece of land in a prominent downtown location on King Street.

As for Moncton, the 2nd sister has been leasing for some time now. A current tenant mentioned a while back that she noticed new people in the building weekly. Downtown vacancy rates are very low according to CMHC stats, so I suspect he'll have no problem essentially filling #2 up before the third sister comes on line.

Sackville is a much smaller project, so perhaps he could shift to Saint John after it's completed. And let's hope that it's a major development - which would be great for the city.

[bingun]

Keep in mind the below from early May, which stated they were extending the purchase timeline. I guess we will find out soon based on these dates, but it could still fall through, and I won't get my hopes up until this is confirmed.

City entered into an Agreement of Purchase and Sale with J.N. Lafford Realty Inc. with respect to PID 55147482. More time is required, following title diligence, to ensure that the transaction can go ahead. The purpose of this report is to seek authority for the City to amend the timelines at sections 2.2 and 2.6 of the Agreement of Purchase and Sale with J.N. Lafford Realty Inc.

COUNCIL RESOLUTION

That the City extend to June 30, 2025, or other such date as agreed by the Chief Administrative Officer, the timeline set out at section 2.6 and the date for the payment of the deposit at section 2.2 of the Agreement of Purchase and Sale between the City and J.N. Lafford Realty Inc. dated February 19, 2025, and that the Mayor and Clerk be authorized to execute any document necessary to effect this extension.

[bingun]

From Barry Ogden's Facebook - Foster Thurston/Sandy Point roundabout.

[sailor734]

I drive this route quite frequently and this intersection will certainly benefit from a roundabout. Making a left off Sandy Point onto Foster Thurston can be very challenging, especially during periods of high traffic between the KV and UNBSJ/SJRH

[cdnguys]

IOL outgrew its HQ already - couple floors worth of staff moving to 201 Crown St, which is now undergoing renos. This building was vacated when their HQ opened in 2018.

[adamuptownsj]

Minor nitpick, but they should have extended the sidewalk and crosswalks around the whole thing to the new street.