The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

If you think getting something approved in Saint John is difficult, look at this proposed development in Rothesay. There is a public hearing on Monday, and there is a stack of letters against this, presentations, and a petition! You'd think they are building an apartment building.

https://www.rothesay.ca/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/2025June16CameronRoad-Public-Hearing-FINAL.pdf

Just one more example of why amalgamation needs to happen, even if people in Rothesay and Quispamsis don’t want it to happen.

They’re holding their own “towns” back, and the whole region back for that matter, in their commitment to segregation and snootiness.

We’d be much better off as a single regional municipality with a tax rate even lower than the one in Rothesay today (the lowest in the region). Comprehensive industrial tax reform could make that lower residential tax rate a reality.

People just need to see the forest through the trees. Amalgamation doesn’t mean wiping Rothesay or Quispamsis off the map, but it may mean putting Wolastoq or Fundy on the map.

More than anything, though, amalgamation would bring about fairness, and lead the entire region down a more sustainable economic and demographic path. Just like amalgamation did for Halifax.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Just one more example of why amalgamation needs to happen, even if people in Rothesay and Quispamsis don’t want it to happen.

They’re holding their own “towns” back, and the whole region back for that matter, in their commitment to segregation and snootiness.

We’d be much better off as a single regional municipality with a tax rate even lower than the one in Rothesay today (the lowest in the region). Comprehensive industrial tax reform could make that lower residential tax rate a reality.

People just need to see the forest through the trees. Amalgamation doesn’t mean wiping Rothesay or Quispamsis off the map, but it may mean putting Wolastoq or Fundy on the map.

More than anything, though, amalgamation would bring about fairness, and lead the entire region down a more sustainable economic and demographic path. Just like amalgamation did for Halifax.

You say "holding them back"......another way of looking at it is the people living in those towns are keeping them the way they want them.

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by sailor734

You say "holding them back"......another way of looking at it is the people living in those towns are keeping them the way they want them.

Just invite an ornithologist, an entomologist, and a dendrologist to spend a few days in your backyard, etc. They should be able to find something of interest just about anywhere.

[ivegotaname]

I figure if they want to use our services and take our jobs in saint john then they better pay city tax

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by ivegotaname

I figure if they want to use our services and take our jobs in saint john then they better pay city tax

Services? Seriously? AFAIK Rothesay-Quispamsis provides their own police, fire, water, sewer, snow removal, road maintenance and they contribute to various regional facilities. If you want them to pay to drive on Saint John streets should you pay if you drive through Rothesay? How about if you have a car accident in the KV? Should there be a fee for police and fire to attend?

As to "take our jobs" you do know that people in Canada have a constitutional right to live where they choose? Past Saint John councils found that out when they tried to make residency a condition of employment with the city.

I think if people in Saint John want to understand why people in the KV resist the idea of amalgamation into some sort of an SJRM so strongly they only need to consider the composition and performance of Saint John common councils over the past decades.

I live in Millidgeville and I have often wished we could succeed from Saint John and become part of Rothesay.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Services? Seriously? AFAIK Rothesay-Quispamsis provides their own police, fire, water, sewer, snow removal, road maintenance and they contribute to various regional facilities. If you want them to pay to drive on Saint John streets should you pay if you drive through Rothesay? How about if you have a car accident in the KV? Should there be a fee for police and fire to attend?

As to "take our jobs" you do know that people in Canada have a constitutional right to live where they choose? Past Saint John councils found that out when they tried to make residency a condition of employment with the city.

I think if people in Saint John want to understand why people in the KV resist the idea of amalgamation into some sort of an SJRM so strongly they only need to consider the composition and performance of Saint John common councils over the past decades.

I live in Millidgeville and I have often wished we could succeed from Saint John and become part of Rothesay.

For a city resident that would stand to benefit greatly, in terms of property tax relief, if amalgamation into a Fundy Regional Municipality or Wolastoq Regional Municipality occurred... you seem to enjoy sticking up for the suburbs a stone's throw away from you that enjoy far lower tax rates. Some people make it sound proposals for SJ-KV amalgamation is akin to something like Israel-Palestine amalgamation. I don't get the feverous opposition, and as an outsider who moved here from Western Canada, I honestly think I see the potential in amalgamation a lot more clearly than many SJ and KV locals do, that have grown up here their entire lives, and have been entrenched in the all the stereotypes about Saint John being crap and KV being great!

You're absolutely right though, the people of the Kennebecasis Valley (excluding Millidgeville) would never support being amalgamated into an entity called Saint John Regional Municipality, because many people out there have some very snotty views about the city of Saint John, and would never want to be part of something where they had to say they lived in Saint John. Therefore, it would be absolutely foolish to try and amalgamate under the SJRM moniker... it would be fighting an uphill battle, for no good reason. However, the Fundy Regional Service Commission has already done some good work, and doesn't have the negative stigma that the Saint John name would for people in "the Valley". Regional amalgamation under a new name, like Fundy or Wolastoq, would be met with less resistance from the bedroom communities than regional amalgamation under the Saint John moniker.

But let's be real, Sailor. If people out in the valley are so freaking great, and so much smarter, more highly educated, etc, then they will surely have a great big impact on the council and municipal affairs of this new regional municipality. right?

Valley residents already have an enormous impact on the municipal governance of Saint John... some of it good, some of it bad... but they can't run for council, or for mayor of Saint John. I'd suspect the most of our future mayors under a "one size fits all" amalgamation scenario would be residents of the Kennebecasis Valley. So no, I don't think your's and others arguments against amalgamation is very strong in that regard. Or as UptownAdam put it, "Regional amalgamation would be unfair to people in the valley by unleasing "Brent Harris types" on them" (or something like that, lol) . Rather, I think it would be more to the entire region, by greatly upping the talent pool in terms of who can run for the regional municipality's council, and who can run for mayor of the region. Amalgamation seems to be the perfect solution for dealing with the woeful composition and woeful performance of council that bothers you so much.

Amalgamation under FRM or WRM wouldn't wipe Rothesay or Quispamsis off the map. Rather, they'd be elevated to the status as two of the nicest neighbourhoods in a growing city of 135,000+ people. There would be lots to work out in terms of granting some autonomy for individual communities, but I firmly believe the change would be good for both KV and SJ in the long long, and GB too.

So again, let's be real, if the province passed fair, industrial tax reforms tomorrow, Saint John still wouldn't likely be able to lower its tax rate to below Rothesay's. However, if they passed both industrial tax reforms and amalgamated all or most of the CMA into one single regional municipality with a, the entire RM could adopt a property tax rate lower than Rothesay's current rate, which is the lowest in the region.

It's such a simple, logical solution to shore up the economic and demographic fundamentals of the region. It's truly discouraging to see even Saint John residents like yourself, who are getting taxed up the arse, to be so cynical about what should have been a slam dunk solution decades ago.

Also, one of the biggest benefits would be lessening the confusion between Saint John, NB and St. John's, NL. I know many SJ locals don't believe this confusion exists in the rest of Canada, or the rest of the world for that matter, but this confusion about the similar names of our two Atlantic Canadian port cities absolutely does exist. Not only does this confusion between the two very similarly named cities exists, it's much more of a problem for Saint John, NB than it is for St. John's, NL. Don't worry though, Saint John won't wiped off the map, either. However, Wolastoq, Fundy, or something else would be added to the map in even bigger letters than Saint John is on the map now. And who knows, maybe even Lancaster will get it's name back on the map too!


Perhaps a poll thread is in order for this question of Saint John regional amalgamation.

However, when it comes to the government, they don't need a poll to bring about amalgamation. There wouldn't need to be a referendum for KV residents on the question, or a Greater Saint John wide referendum on the question... if the government believes there's an economic, demographic, or cost savings case for it, then they can just do it. How many more reports and studies do they honestly need? It's the logical solution to bring about greater macro economic and demographic stability in the region, and it will save the government money. Inaction on amalgamation is holding our city and region back. The decision to amalgamate or not should be based on the economic and demographic reality, not people's feelings.

[darkharbour]

I think you're argument is based on the fallacy that the suburban towns are being "held back" in some way. IMO as a Saint Johner, Rothesay, Quispamsis, GB-W, Hampton, etc. are all welcome to remain the density and size that they are now because as the region's population increases I would rather the City provide the higher density, better serviced growth because it benefits me and the lifestyle I want to live. More people in SJ means more transit, more events, better neighbourhood retail and food options, greater diversity, more bike and pedestrian friendly streets, etc. all in close proximity to me in a central area.

If KV grows more, it holds potential to dilute my urban experience, or to reduce the demand from the populace to invest in urban amenities. For example, I would rather the North End gain 10,000 residents than have 10,000 people spread out across the large footprint of Rothesay and Quispamsis. If KV wants to be a better suburban community, why can't we focus on being a better city?

Aside from that, we do not need amalgamation if we can check off at minimum these three things: 1. GNB provides meaningful tax reforms that meet the demands that the City, UMNB, and others have been clamouring for over the past several years; 2. We regionalize or at least coordinate key services, including fire and police, as well as beginning to cost share on other services or procurement; and 3. we invest in a regional planning process that acknowledges local jurisdiction and community character, while considering a larger geographic footprint and impacts across municipal boundaries.

Those three things, while not small by any means, would provide truly meaningful advances for our region and satisfy a great many of the divisive issues in the Fundy Region without getting into the messy politics and petty arguments that inevitably surround any amalgamation process.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I think your argument is based on the fallacy that the suburban towns are being "held back" in some way. IMO as a Saint Johner, Rothesay, Quispamsis, GB-W, Hampton, etc. are all welcome to remain the density and size that they are now because as the region's population increases I would rather the City provide the higher density, better serviced growth because it benefits me and the lifestyle I want to live. More people in SJ means more transit, more events, better neighbourhood retail and food options, greater diversity, more bike and pedestrian friendly streets, etc. all in close proximity to me in a central area.

If KV grows more, it holds potential to dilute my urban experience, or to reduce the demand from the populace to invest in urban amenities. For example, I would rather the North End gain 10,000 residents than have 10,000 people spread out across the large footprint of Rothesay and Quispamsis. If KV wants to be a better suburban community, why can't we focus on being a better city?

Aside from that, we do not need amalgamation if we can check off at minimum these three things: 1. GNB provides meaningful tax reforms that meet the demands that the City, UMNB, and others have been clamouring for over the past several years; 2. We regionalize or at least coordinate key services, including fire and police, as well as beginning to cost share on other services or procurement; and 3. we invest in a regional planning process that acknowledges local jurisdiction and community character, while considering a larger geographic footprint and impacts across municipal boundaries.

Those three things, while not small by any means, would provide truly meaningful advances for our region and satisfy a great many of the divisive issues in the Fundy Region without getting into the messy politics and petty arguments that inevitably surround any amalgamation process.

I don't know, I'd say the bedroom communities are being held back by by their anti development councils, as evidenced by the response to this proposal discussed above, or many other developments that have been opposed which can be found throughout this thread dating back to 2007. Though, I'd argue that the bedroom communities are holding back the entire region due to issues surrounding tax fairness, and reinforcing economic inequality and segregation within the CMA.

Most CMA's in Canada don't have urban suburbs outside the city limits masquerading as rural towns comprising almost half the population of the metropolitan area. However, in Saint John, that's exactly what we have. Moreover, many of these residents outside the city hold some of the most powerful and influential positions in the city of Saint John, both inside and outside of city hall. Like I've said before... all city's have suburbs, but in Saint John, the suburbs have a city.

Post amalgamation, I think the bedroom communities could all remain very nice communities with their own distinct characteristics and lower densities compared to the urban core of the region in Uptown Saint John, and core adjacent areas like the North end and Lower West Side. That just takes good municipal planning, and a strategy for attracting the residents and new businesses to the region.

I'd also rather see the North End and Lower West Side gain 10,000 new residents rather than see them spread out across the KV in new subdivisions, but it's not necessarily a one or the other situation.

However, I would say in the current situation, where SJ and KV remain separate... KV's long been doing a better job at attracting new residents. Sure, this has changed a bit since around the advent of the pandemic when people from the rest of Canada discovered New Brunswick on the map... people started moving to Saint John by the largest numbers in decades, but I still think KV, or at least Quispamsis on it's own, is still out pacing SJ in terms of attracting new residents, especially wealthier people, because of objective realities, like their lower property tax rate. Though, I agree that your checklist of three would be a huge improvement to the current situation, especially if #1 and #2 include the outlying KV suburbs actually paying their fair share towards the city budget. Still, if we can instantly change the population of Saint John from the "73,611" total that shows up on Google today to "145,000" post amalgamation that will ultimately help Saint John attract more people from elsewhere, because, let's be real... most people would rather live in a city of 145,000 than 75,000.

I also think the political ramifications of amalgamating Greater Saint John are far overblown. What exactly would be the ramifications for Holt and the Liberals if they amalgamated the Saint John region after winning a second mandate? They'll be holding onto those KV seats tenuously in the next election as it is.

This whole resistance to amalgamation within the Saint John region seems like such an example of New Brunswick exceptionalism to me, or to borrow Pugsley's term, "NBism". Amalgamation has worked out great for Halifax, Nova Scotia, but why would we ever want to risk doing something smart like that here in Saint John, New Brunswick?

The younger crowd in KV don't seem nearly as committed keeping things snobby and separate as their parents and grandparents generations have. I'm quite confident that amalgamation will happen eventually, as it just makes too much economic sense. I just hope I'm not in a nursing home by the time it finally happens.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by sailor734

You say "holding them back"......another way of looking at it is the people living in those towns are keeping them the way they want them.

But is that a reasonable position to take? I know that it's an easy position to have when you are a homeowner but in the holistic sense I think it's problematic. The people who live in those towns absolutely want amenities and services to exist there but by being resistant to any sort of density they are making it very difficult for service workers to live in those communities. Not to mention that as they age, I'm sure they want to remain in the community and some will want the option to transition to a smaller home, whether that is semi detached, a townhouse, or an apartment.

Any complete community is going to need to densify to some extent to meet the needs of the people who live and work there.

FWIW, I don't think amalgamation is the answer. I think darkharbour has the right idea.

[bingun]

Charlotte Street Reconstruction

Queens Square North to St James Street. Asphalt was fresh today, I assume they'll paint the crossings and bike lane on shortly. For those unfamiliar, they've narrowed the street and added the grass and tree line between the sidewalk and the street, as well as enhanced some of the crossings.

[sailor734]

Fresh asphalt, curbs, sidewalks and grass all look great .....I'm still not convinced about the need to shrink the street width and lose parking but that ship has sailed.

Too bad about the 100 year old look of the telegraph.....urr, I mean...utility poles. I wish SJ Energy and Bell would participate in street rebuilding by moving power/communication/data lines underground. It would take decades but you have to start somewhere.....and the storms stemming from an increasingly warm ocean are only going to increase.

[bingun]

From tonight's council meeting -

The city declined its right of first refusal to repurchase 450 Fallsview Drive (the smaller restaurant/café unit off the Reversing Falls parking lot).

This suggests that the current owner has sold the property.

[sailor734]

Is the meeting being livestreamed? I can't seem to find it

[bingun]

Lorneville industrial rezoning passes initial readings unanimously.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Is the meeting being livestreamed? I can't seem to find it

You missed it, but you can search City of Saint John on YouTube to view council sessions and committees.
Edit: actually you can replay it. Interesting tidbit - data centre electrical use over 10 MW and are in discussions with NB Power. Could be a lot more but 10 is the threshold where they switch to NB Power for discussions.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

From tonight's council meeting -

The city declined its right of first refusal to repurchase 450 Fallsview Drive (the smaller restaurant/café unit off the Reversing Falls parking lot).

This suggests that the current owner has sold the property.

Very interested in finding out what’s going on with this one.

Also good to hear Lorneville passed the first reading unanimously. I guess the recently discovered 400 year old tree didn’t quite move the needle.

[bingun]

It felt like the councillors were publicly explaining their concerns and trying to sympathize with the Lorneville residents, but they had clearly made up their minds before this meeting began, especially as several of them had 'final comments' prepared in advance.

There were only two real speakers for the rezoning (the CEO of Envision SJ and the CEO of Port Saint John). The other two speakers were rambling, and I have no idea who they were.

A long way to go before any development could happen, but this is an essential first step. Let's hope the provincial piece doesn't get bogged down.

[sailor734]

I must admit that after all the controversy and heated rhetoric I was a little surprised to see it pass without dissent.

While I'm glad to see it move forward for the good of the region I do feel for the residents of Lorneville.

It seems like they have repeatedly been screwed by the city and province since 1967. Forced amalgamation, forced expropriations, the Lorneville dump issues over the years, full city taxes with limited services ..etc etc.

If I lived there I'd probably feel the same. I wouldn't be asking the city to do anything for me.....I'd just want the city to stop doing things to me

[adamuptownsj]

The Lorneville opposition was flawed from day one. There was never a sense that they would be ok with ANY development... now they're getting a lot of it.

They could probably have gotten more restrictions, an even bigger buffer, and/or a Nature Conservancy land donation, if they weren't using 'nothing should be built here ever' messaging.

I've posted before on here, but their positioning of the area as magical remote wilderness comes across as facetious to anyone with Google Maps. Coleson Cove to the south, a wind farm planning expansion to the west, an existing industrial park and highway access to the north, and a barge terminal to the northeast.

What I am surprised about is Council having some cojones on this.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

The Lorneville opposition was flawed from day one. There was never a sense that they would be ok with ANY development... now they're getting a lot of it.

They could probably have gotten more restrictions, an even bigger buffer, and/or a Nature Conservancy land donation, if they weren't using 'nothing should be built here ever' messaging.

I've posted before on here, but their positioning of the area as magical remote wilderness comes across as facetious to anyone with Google Maps. Coleson Cove to the south, a wind farm planning expansion to the west, an existing industrial park and highway access to the north, and a barge terminal to the northeast.

What I am surprised about is Council having some cojones on this.

I think the development of some of the larger proposals, such as a data centre, should go ahead there, but don't undersell the area. There is a reason that Musquash is a federally-designated Marine Protected Area, it is of tremendous value ecologically, no matter how close the point sources you listed are.

The thing too many people miss in these polarized arguments is that it isn't an either-or debate. The area around Lorneville and Musquash can be both of ecological significance and see intensified, responsible development; it can have Coleson Cove and still be worthy of preservation; we can have jobs and economic development and not sell out our natural environment along the way. Sure you need to work harder to accomplish these balances, but it is possible to do, and we can only do that through collaboration, good policy, productive discourse, corporate accountability, and transparent government.