⚜️ The French Canada Thread | Discussion sur le Canada français ⚜️

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Lol, I was thinking "megalomania vs. kitsch".

Is yesterday's "megalomania" today's kitsch?
(some would probably say Dion has had the megalomania connection, and to me she's very much yesterday, though I'm somewhat insulated from current trends these days...)

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by mousquet

She's probably the all-time most successful francophone entertainer, if fame means success.

Daft Punk must've been the most famous from France in recent times, but they always hid their faces behind silly robot masks, precisely because they didn't want to be recognized in the public realm, I guess.

Which francophone is more famous than Celine? Napoleon certainly isn’t. Celine is a global mega star, with fans on every continent. Many of those people probably have no idea who Napoleon is. Only people living in certain parts of the world during Napoleon’s time knew who he was.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

As for the bolded: absolutely. I wonder what could have been for both Montreal and Nouveau-Brunswick, had the Anglos just treated Francophones with more respect and dignity.

NB might have ended up less Francophone if the Acadians hadn't been deported. They mostly lived in what's now NS, and there were around 10-20k deportees. New Brunswick was flooded by a larger number of Loyalists just a few decades later, and there were large migrations from areas like Ireland and the UK. Ontario rapidly grew to become more populated than Quebec. A large share of Prairie immigration was from non-British, non-French areas around Central and Eastern Europe.

Maybe one alternate history is that the Acadian population blocked Loyalist settlement in the Maritimes or somehow it was rejected by the authorities (I doubt they'd have let the Acadians vote). You'd have ended up with one province, NS, as NB was created for the Loyalists, and demographically in the end it would have looked almost the same as Quebec, with Anglophones in the cities in the 1800's and a larger French-speaking rural population. It might have developed a bit faster without the disruption to the population and agricultural development that happened in the 1750's. Eventually, the same process would have happened as in Quebec with people moving from rural areas to the cities and demanding equal rights.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Which francophone is more famous than Celine? Napoleon certainly isn’t. Celine is a global mega star, with fans on every continent. Many of those people probably have no idea who Napoleon is. Only people living in certain parts of the world during Napoleon’s time knew who he was.

This has gotta be a wind up?

In case it's not...

You're mixing "fame" and "popularity". Napoleon has got to be on of the most famous historical figures that ever lived, up there with Cesar, Attila the Hun, etc. That doesn't mean people liked him, though.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by jonny24

This has gotta be a wind up?

In case it's not...

You're mixing "fame" and "popularity". Napoleon has got to be on of the most famous historical figures that ever lived, up there with Cesar, Attila the Hun, etc. That doesn't mean people liked him, though.

I am not mixing them up. My comment has nothing to do with popularity. Looking at this from a global perspective, most people in Asia probably have no idea who Napoleon is but many of them are fans of Celine. That is just one example covering billions of people. Do you think children today know who Attila the Hun was? Even with Cesar, these are very Western and Eurocentric assumptions that don’t apply globally. There are regional variations based on local historical relevance but any high estimates of Napoleon’s level of global fame would be highly suspect in my opinion.

[someone123]

Austerlitz vs. "My Heart Will Go On". What an internet debate.

It's cool to bash Western historiography these days but it hits a point where you become uncharitable toward those in other countries when you assume they're ignorant about what truly were world-changing events that happened to play out mostly (not entirely) in Europe. I don't know if Celine Dion is better known in say China than Napoleon but Napoleon had more impact on them.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Yes, "coolness" is very much subjective, lol.

For me, Gilles Villeneuve (may he RIP).

Musically, always been a fan of Michel Pagliaro.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

• Video Link


So, how was Charles's French?

Also, it's interesting that Radio Canada allows comments on their Youtube videos while the CBC English does not!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

• Video Link


So, how was Charles's French?

Also, it's interesting that Radio Canada allows comments on their Youtube videos while the CBC English does not!

He sounded like a posh Brit who reads French, as one would expect. I doubt anyone listening had any problem understanding him.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

For me, Gilles Villeneuve (may he RIP).

Musically, always been a fan of Michel Pagliaro.

Pag has some good stuff, for sure.

very beatlesque:
• Video Link

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

Austerlitz vs. "My Heart Will Go On". What an internet debate.

It's cool to bash Western historiography these days but it hits a point where you become uncharitable toward those in other countries when you assume they're ignorant about what truly were world-changing events that happened to play out mostly (not entirely) in Europe. I don't know if Celine Dion is better known in say China than Napoleon but Napoleon had more impact on them.

Uncharitable? People in the Philippines singing karaoke to Celine songs have far more reason to care about her than a 19th century Corsican. We’re discussing who is more well known, not who is more “important” or who they “should” know from the perspective of a random Canadian’s cultural bias.

Pointing out Western bias isn’t about being cool, but rather choosing to be aware of basic reality. It’s something you readily learn by talking to immigrants and discovering how many things you assume are common cultural knowledge actually aren’t.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Pointing out Western bias isn’t about being cool, but rather choosing to be aware of basic reality. It’s something you readily learn by talking to immigrants and discovering how many things you assume are common cultural knowledge actually aren’t.

Thank you, unbiased non-random internet enlightener, for sharing your knowledge of global culture with us random unaware biased folks.

I feel like Napoleon would probably be included more in a school curriculum and was objectively more impactful on history (even though some people really like pop diva concerts). Looking on Google Ngram, Napoleon absolutely swamps Celine Dion, and has been doing that for hundreds of years now. I think Celine Dion may fade from memory before Napoleon, and we could talk about a temporal bias as well. But this question is probably not really answerable with available data. It's just a bunch of guesses and opinions.

It's fine to point out Western cultural bias as many people have been trying to do for the past century or so but I don't think that bias is required for Napoleon to get airtime. I would expect an educated person in the West to be familiar with global historical figures. For example, if a Chinese person expects an American to know who Mao Zedong is, that's not just cultural bias. Mao was an objectively impactful figure. Of course, this doesn't mean everyone in a karaoke bar will know who Mao was, and ephemeral pop stars may at times be known by more people. But who cares?

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

Thank you, unbiased non-random internet enlightener, for sharing your superior knowledge of global culture and Filipino karaoke with us random unaware biased folks.

It’s not that big of a deal whether or not Celine is more well-known. You can relax.

Originally Posted by someone123

I feel like Napoleon would probably be included more in a school curriculum and was objectively more impactful on history. Looking on Google Ngram, Napoleon absolutely swamps Celine Dion, and has been doing that for hundreds of years now. I think Celine Dion may fade from memory before Napoleon, and we could talk about a temporal bias as well.

You feel like he would be more well-known. According to Ngram, no one has discussed Celine ever, so I wouldn’t look at that as a relevant source in terms of how well-known she is or was.

Celine may fade more from memory, yes. Napoleon will obviously continue to hold relevance for those interested in history. As for school curriculum, hearing about someone in class and then retaining that information or caring about it are different things.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

You feel like he would be more well-known. According to Ngram, no one has discussed Celine ever, so I wouldn’t look at that as a relevant source in terms of how well-known she is or was.

That's incorrect. She was actually pretty frequently mentioned around 2000. But put her against Napoleon and it looks like ~0 on the chart because Napoleon had 200x the mentions, during Celine Dion's peak popularity, 180 years after his death.

Could it be that you have a personal cultural bias toward pop stars?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Mao Zedong is definitely more famous than Teresa Teng at this point in history. At her peak, Teresa Teng was ten times more famous in China than Celine Dion ever was.

Celine Dion might have been more globally famous than Napoléon in 1998… but I think Napoléon has been far more well known than Celine Dion for a while now.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Speaking of Napoléon… the 2002 mini series was unique in that it was a joint French-Canadian production. Not only that, it wasn’t just dubbed into English, they filmed the entire mini series twice, in both French and English. It was also the most expensive mini series ever produced at the time of its release.

French:
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English:
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We watched this in high school history class, 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 and all.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Okay, I think Gilles Groulx may be be the coolest French Canadian, and definitely one of the most interesting Québécois directors. Groulx was considered one of the pioneers of "Direct Cinema | Cinéma direct along with other Québécois masters, Michel Brault, and Claude Jutra. Interesting to me, and adding to Groulx's cool factor, is that he was friends with Jean Luc Godard and similarly tried to pushed the boundaries of film making in terms on both technical and philosophical levels. Perhaps, I was too hasty before in saying that Quebec didn't have any directors as cool as the masters of French New Wave... perhaps they did.

I watched his, 24 heures ou plus, last night and felt it was a very interesting documentary, and one of the coolest films I've ever seen from the National Film Board of Canada. It was filmed in 1971, one year after the events of the 1970 October Crisis. The NFB considered the film to be too controversial for 1971, and held off on releasing the film to the public until 1977, which lessened the cultural impact of the film, but which now adds to the mystique/ cool factor of the film.

24 heures ou plus | 24 Hours or More
• Video Link
There's no subs on youtube, but there are subtitles when viewed on NFB website, linked above.

This feature film made during an exceptionally feverish period of popular revolt that saw the coming together of Quebec’s 3 main unions (CSN, FTQ, CEQ) is a cinematic tract by socially engaged filmmaker Gilles Groulx.

Directed by | Réalisé par Gilles Groulx - 1973 | 113 min

Pamphlet cinématographique réalisé par Gilles Groulx à un moment de fièvre populaire exceptionnelle au Québec, quelques mois après le front commun des trois syndicats québécois les plus importants (CSN, FTQ, CEQ) face au gouvernement québécois. Œuvre personnelle et militante d'un cinéaste québécois engagé, sa philosophie s’oppose à la « société de consommation » perçue comme la suprême incarnation du mal.



Next on my French Canadian/Québécois watch list:

Le chat dans le sac | The Cat in the Bag
• Video Link

Through the coming of age of a twenty-year-old man, this film symbolizes the political coming of age of the people of Québec. In French with English subtitles.

Directed by | Réalisé par Gilles Groulx - 1964 | 73 min

À propos de l’ONF : L’office national du film du Canada est un producteur et distributeur public de films. À travers nos documentaires, fictions et films d'animation, nous racontons le monde d'un point de vue canadien.

_____

Again, coolness is very subjective, but I'd definitely be interested to hear who else are considered the coolest, most influential, or most recognized French Canadian directors or other types of French Canadian artists, from other members of the forum.

I'm trying to improve my very poor French, and I find watching French films and listening to French pop music a more fun and interesting way of immersing myself in the language, compared to more conventional methods of language learning. If anyone has any tips on the best apps or free programs for learning French in Canada (or more specifically in New Brunswick/Nouveau Brunswick) it would be much appreciated! —thanks/merci!

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

There are more Quebeckers in the starting lineups of the NBA finals than there are Quebeckers in the Stanley Cup Finals this year.

That's got to be a first.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Pag has some good stuff, for sure.

very beatlesque:
• Video Link

[MolsonExport]

"It’s certainly not the masterpiece some indépendantiste viewers see in the film, but it’s also not the insufferable, propagandistic dreck various English-language critics accuse it of being." - Maurie Alioff

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