Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Whereas under the Libs, we'd have a $12b bridge (or none at all) and zero SkyTrains being built. Given that cross-border traffic has suddenly fallen off a cliff, it looks like we dodged a bullet.



Probably the cost of the Langley extension, which was hiked up due to Covid supply chain disruptions. Currently under pre-construction as we speak.

Traffic through the tunnel has little to do with crossborder traffic and much more to do with Canadians living south of the Fraser and working north of it, going to the airport etc etc.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Traffic through the tunnel has little to do with crossborder traffic...

You don't perhaps think that you're downplaying the role of Highway 99 in cross-border traffic just the tiniest little bit?

[Axe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Whereas under the Libs, we'd have a $12b bridge (or none at all) and zero SkyTrains being built. Given that cross-border traffic has suddenly fallen off a cliff, it looks like we dodged a bullet.



Probably the cost of the Langley extension, which was hiked up due to Covid supply chain disruptions. Currently under pre-construction as we speak.

we know about the skytrain cost going up... but I thought we were talking about the tunnel project..

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

You don't perhaps think that you're downplaying the role of Highway 99 in cross-border traffic just the tiniest little bit?

If I had to make a wild guess I'd say that perhaps only 5-10% of the cars going through the Massey Tunnel during peak times either originate from or are heading to the US. Northbound cross-border traffic volumes are throttled by border inspections at the Peace Arch and Douglas crossings (they're throttled southbound too, but not until they're well past the river crossings).

It's certainly not a major factor, although it's true that when the highway is congested small changes in demand can make a significant change in the severity of the congestion.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Traffic through the tunnel has little to do with crossborder traffic and much more to do with Canadians living south of the Fraser and working north of it, going to the airport etc etc.

As of last census, less than 8,000 Ladner and Tsawwassen residents commute to work outside of Delta. Were they the main source of traffic in the Massey Tunnel, we could get away with a four-lane bridge or tunnel and save a crapload of money.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

As of last census, less than 8,000 Ladner and Tsawwassen residents commute to work outside of Delta. Were they the main source of traffic in the Massey Tunnel, we could get away with a four-lane bridge or tunnel and save a crapload of money.

Add in White Rock and South Surrey.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Axe

Do you have a source for cost overruns?? or are you just guessing?

Seeing how the Langley Skytrain went from roughly 2 billion, to 3 billion, to now 6, I'm pretty sure the estimated cost (which hasn't been updated for years) will rise considerably when bids are finally underway.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Add in White Rock and South Surrey.

White Rock and South Surrey commute to Surrey (possibly North Delta, which is more or less also Surrey). Adding the ones who drive to Richmond or Vancouver via Highway 99 doesn't even get you six lanes.

[Metro-One]

So with all the comments I’m reading on here about the decreased importance of cross border traffic, that must mean the current tunnel and highway is now flowing smoothly with no need of counter flow systems all day every day now? Sure…

Also what a pointless talking point. It would only make sense if you were advocating / hoping that the NDP were going to cancel their tunnel project completely and build nothing.

Fact is they are still saying they are going to build the tunnel with more lanes than current, but opening a decade later than the bridge, with weaker transit aspects, far inferior interchanges, and far less highway modernization, all with a budget that is already 1.5 that of the project they cancelled which had already sunk over 100 million in pre construction and had even started preparing for pile driving.

So the “bullet dodged” due to lower border traffic makes no sense here.

And where is that hilarious 12 billion dollar figure coming from??

It’s okay if you support the NDP overall to admit that on this project they made the wrong move in cancelling the already in motion bridge.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

White Rock and South Surrey commute to Surrey (possibly North Delta, which is more or less also Surrey). Adding the ones who drive to Richmond or Vancouver via Highway 99 doesn't even get you six lanes.

Why would you assume White Rock and South Surrey commute to Surrey? Plenty of them will be going downtown or to UBC.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Why would you assume White Rock and South Surrey commute to Surrey? Plenty of them will be going downtown or to UBC.

Which is what the Pattullo and the Expo are for - that is, if there's even any students in White Rock, since you've repeatedly implied that they mostly live in new-build condos in the CoV.

There was already a private shuttle bus from South Surrey to UBC (via the Massey) in 2018, remember? It went belly-up less than a year later.

[ssiguy]

I take HWY#99 all the time in the South Surrey area and the traffic is ridiculous to the point of being dangerous. It should have been 6 lane 30 years ago. It's the same road as it was when it was originally built 60 years ago. Even with reduced border traffic, it's traffic will only get worse as Surrey is still the fastest growing city in GV and will continue to be for decades. People mistakenly think all that growth is happening in Whalley but the reality is that much of it is in SS.

The expanded GM should go ahead full steam along with 6 lanes to 91 and 8 lanes from there to 152nd. The good thing is that Carney stated that one of the country's "nation building" projects is the GMT.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

- snip -

Would've been ten lanes, remember? Given current events, six plus bus lanes now seems entirely adequate (albeit significantly expensive).

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Would've been ten lanes, remember? Given current events, six plus bus lanes now seems entirely adequate (albeit significantly expensive).

It was 8 plus bus / HOV lanes. At least compare them both in the same context. With a far superior centre lane HOV / Rapid Bus system then the clunky junky bus on shoulder crap along the highway, cutting across every on and off ramp.

So 10 lanes vs. 8.

The logical solution then would have been to continue with the bridge project but just reduce the bridge lane count from 10 to 8.

Done.

Just accept the L on this one. It won’t mean you are against your chosen party in other matters. In fact accepting when your political party of choice makes an error is a good way to keep your political team from becoming a puritan cesspool.

If it makes for better context, I don’t fully blame the NDP on this, in fact I believe they likely would have continued with something similar to what I suggested if it wasn’t for the fact that they had a coalition government with the awful Greens. I think the cancellation was to appease their dogma. I also blame the Liberals for not getting all the contracts signed before the election. I hate the dangling of projects before an election.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

- snip -

I was under the impression there'd be bus lanes and HOV lanes. My mistake.

Again, not sure where the with-us-or-against us rationale comes from; I don't like how we're getting less lanes for more money, nor wrecking Deas Island (which the bridge would've skipped).

The fact remains that it was SkyTrains or a giant bridge, and SkyTrains won. Were it the other way around, we could easily see the Massey Bridge overbudget and still under construction - because apparently project estimates in Canada are more like suggestions these days - and Broadway and Langley still not shovel-ready.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I was under the impression there'd be bus lanes and HOV lanes. My mistake.

Again, not sure where the with-us-or-against us rationale comes from; I don't like how we're getting less lanes for more money, nor wrecking Deas Island (which the bridge would've skipped).

The fact remains that it was SkyTrains or a giant bridge, and SkyTrains won. Were it the other way around, we could easily see the Massey Bridge overbudget and still under construction - because apparently project estimates in Canada are more like suggestions these days - and Broadway and Langley still not shovel-ready.

I would have been far more okay if they simply delayed the GMB project a few years to get the Skytrain projects moving, especially Broadway, but kept the GMB project largely the same (again, some minor tweaks like lane reduction from 10 to 8 would have been okay) for when it did start moving again, instead of completely throwing out the entire plan and work that had been done, going back to page zero, and majorly downsizing the project.

Comparatively, what they have done is similar to a scenario where the Broadway subway was nearly about to start construction, then a new government cancelled it for a bridge instead somewhere else, then completely changed to Broadway Subway project into an at grade LRT with a far lower capacity, but with a higher budget than the initial subway (and opening at least a decade later).

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Comparatively, what they have done is similar to a scenario where the Broadway subway was nearly about to start construction, then a new government cancelled it for a bridge instead somewhere else, then completely changed to Broadway Subway project into an at grade LRT with a far lower capacity, but with a higher budget than the initial subway (and opening at least a decade later).

Something which I could absolutely see the Liberals doing, depending on the leadership - they've upgraded rapid transit, sure, but they've also kneecapped it (e.g. the 2014 referendum, Watts and Hepner's streetcars, etc etc).

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Something which I could absolutely see the Liberals doing, depending on the leadership - they've upgraded rapid transit, sure, but they've also kneecapped it (e.g. the 2014 referendum, Watts and Hepner's streetcars, etc etc).

And if a scenario like that happened, I would be able to say its a mistake and not be happy with it.

Though, just for note, it was the Liberals who prevented us from at grade LRT twice, once with the Canada Line (Denying Richmond's wish for at grade along #3 Road), and the Evergreen Line (mandating that it must be Skytrain and stopping the in motion LRT project).

I agree with you that the referendum was a dumb idea.

So, you agree that the complete scrapping of the GMB project was a bad idea now? (instead of maybe a compromise of a slight downsize in lane count and few year delay to the project to get skytrain moving)

Ironically it was again Richmond demanding the stupid tunnel option. We were lucky when Richmond's idiotic demands were largely ignored for the Canada Line, but not so lucky this time it seems (Richmond should honestly be barred from partaking in any transportation decisions)

[Migrant_Coconut]

Like I said, some upgrades, some downgrades.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

So, you agree that the complete scrapping of the GMB project was a bad idea now? (instead of maybe a compromise of a slight downsize in lane count and few year delay to the project to get skytrain moving)

I think it was an idea. Like the Canada Line, it could've been better, definitely could've been worse.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

... (Richmond should honestly be barred from partaking in any transportation decisions)

No arguments here - just look at the absolute hatchet job they've done with their road network and interchanges... and how long have they been dragging their heels on the bus depot?

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Which is what the Pattullo and the Expo are for - that is, if there's even any students in White Rock, since you've repeatedly implied that they mostly live in new-build condos in the CoV.

I used to think you had credibility, but to suggest people go from South Surrey to UBC through New Westminster... I dunno, man.