The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

$30-50 million for Partridge Island when we have a housing crisis? No thanks.

Talk about a false choice fallacy

When should we finally try to do something about Partridge Island then?


Spending $30-50 million on a causeway doesn't mean not spending $30-50 million on the housing crisis. That's not how government spending works, man... and I think you know that.

Keep in mind, the total spent on the Martello Tower restoration project is already past $25 million, and will very likely reach 30 or 40+ million by the time it actually re-opens to the public. Despite how many tens of millions have been pumped into the tower restoration project, those funds spent haven't had a detrimental impact, or rather, any impact on our response to the housing crisis. If anything, the Martello Tower Restoration will have a slight positive impact on residential developments in the West Side/Fundy Heights. Though, I'd argue a pier at Bayshore Beach could do a lot more to attract residential developers to build on the West Side, or more specifically, it could revive interest in a mid rise residential development at Fort Dufferin, like had been proposed for the site previously... this property remains zoned for high rise residential.


Also, that $30-50 million figure is for turning the breakwater into a pedestrian causeway, not for a pier.



Could a pier end up costing less than a breakwater-causeway? Option two looks far better, imo.


If a pier was comparable to the cost of a breakwater causeway, or even less, i think it would be by far, the preferable option, as a pier would enhance the Saint John waterfront far more than a causeway on the breakwater would. Regardless, I think both ideas are worthy of study, and would both be projects well worth the federal and provincial dollars spent.


I think there's an argument to be made that Carney will be more receptive to funding and building the solutions needed to open up the island to honour its important place in Canadian and Irish history, than compared to his successor, who will likely be a spending averse Conservative, and who will probably not be an Irish-Canadian.

I don't think many Saint Johners would be upset with either of our MPs if they worked together on getting federal funding support to open up Partridge Island to the public. I think far more Saint Johners would be happy to see such a project funded and realized, than would complain about the housing crisis, which is mainly a provincial issue and mainly something dealt with by the private sector.

Though, yeah, it certainly would be great if the federal government was willing to step up and fund some much more ambitious solutions to solve the housing crisis here in Saint John, and hopefully that is the case with Prime Minister Carney's new government.

[ivegotaname]

you know I've been reading Diane Francis book Merger of the century and she talks like knows what's best for canada when she fled her country during war duty and thinks canada and America should be one gigantic super power.

I just want to preserve what new brunswick used to have in its familial history

[bingun]

The Spruce Lake rezoning meeting is ongoing, but I will post these slides now. The CEO of Saint John Industrial Parks presented two proposed projects for the industrial park, and the interested companies provided permission for them to show these this evening.

For the Green Manufacturing project, the CEO said the company is also planning to announce a separate project in the city of Saint John soon.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Nothing super concerning there, and a data centre seems to be an especially good fit considering the location and their power hungry reputation, but it would be nice to know something a little more specific about the "green manufacturing" which seems unnecessarily vague and could mean almost anything, right? lol

Like it could be manufacturing solar panels, batteries, wind turbines, or almost anything?

Considering how large the buildings associated with the ventures could be, and how much power something like a data centre can use, it would be nice to see solar panels on all the roofs of these buildings, and that solar power utilized throughout the industrial.

Not only does this location really make sense for a data centre (beside a major power plant and near the only nuclear plant in the entire region) it could also be a prime location for a substantially larger battery storage solution than Saint John Energy currently has, and be the roadmap to get our city off Tesla products entirely. Unless Elon wants to open up a Tesla car factory in Saint John, I hope we see Saint John Energy replace, or greatly dwarf our current Tesla power storage solutions with far larger domestically engineered power storage solutions.

[bingun]

I am already exhausted listening to this, and I've only had it playing in the background while I clean up.

I know that data centres can be somewhat controversial as they suck up power, which depending on their location can require generation from highly emitting sources. However, companies are interested in setting these up in Saint John because the city has the potential to have mostly green or carbon-neutral energy sources, which are nearby without the need for additional power supply infrastructure.

Water is also readily available with some additional municipal supply work, despite some of the residents thinking its going to suck up their well water.

Based on the point about the company announcing another project soon, we should be able to confirm who they are, but otherwise, I have no idea, as it is very high-level.

I don't think the residents are doing themselves any favours with their approach this evening, as very little of it is relevant to the rezoning, and most of it is environmental concerns, which, from my understanding, is the provincial jurisdiction.

[JakeNB]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Talk about a false choice fallacy

When should we finally try to do something about Partridge Island then? :

Maybe the answer is never. Maybe some things are just too expensive to justify - particularly when we have record deficits and are in turbulent economic times. While budgets have different buckets of funds, there is a finite amount of dollars available. If I could bend Wayne Long’s ear, I would tell him that there are MANY priorities that are ahead of Partridge Island.

[ivegotaname]

Church attendance would make gains if we had Irish people here and God fearing people would be welcome home here in my eyes. If Sea Levels rise anymore they might limited choices to live a safe place again. But it doesn't mean we won't face rising waters too. If we could join EU maybe we can get homes in the hundredth of thousandths built here from those that have moved here

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

I am already exhausted listening to this, and I've only had it playing in the background while I clean up.

I know that data centres can be somewhat controversial as they suck up power, which depending on their location can require generation from highly emitting sources. However, companies are interested in setting these up in Saint John because the city has the potential to have mostly green or carbon-neutral energy sources, which are nearby without the need for additional power supply infrastructure.

Water is also readily available with some additional municipal supply work, despite some of the residents thinking its going to suck up their well water.

Based on the point about the company announcing another project soon, we should be able to confirm who they are, but otherwise, I have no idea, as it is very high-level.

I don't think the residents are doing themselves any favours with their approach this evening, as very little of it is relevant to the rezoning, and most of it is environmental concerns, which, from my understanding, is the provincial jurisdiction.

What exactly is the environmental risk of a data centre? Worrying about a data centre sucking up too much power seems like an incredibly ridiculous thing to worry about considering, it's basically going to be be built between a nuclear power plant, a gigantic oil fired power plant, and a wind farm. Considering how big data centre buildings tend to be, there should be a pretty big opportunity for solar power to be utilized throughout this industrial park.

I think the residents bigger concern should be pushing the province to retrofit Coulson Cove as a power station fuelled by natural gas, and not oil.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

What exactly is the environmental risk of a data centre? Worrying about a data centre sucking up too much power seems like an incredibly ridiculous thing to worry about considering, it's basically going to be be built between a nuclear power plant, a gigantic oil fired power plant, and a wind farm. Considering how big data centre buildings tend to be, there should be a pretty big opportunity for solar power to be utilized throughout this industrial park.

I think the residents bigger concern should be pushing the province to retrofit Coulson Cove as a power station fuelled by natural gas, and not oil.

I think the high-level push back is that we are building thousands of data centers, which are drastically increasing global power needs, requiring highly emitting energy sources to continue operation or be built to supply them all, so ChatGPT can explain something mundane to you. This is similar to crypto farms, which had a phase of setting up and straining local electricity grids. The pure 'green' perspective on this is that we should reduce our consumption to work towards net zero at all costs.

However, a lot of current and future data centres will be used for productive purposes, regardless of whether the average Joe understands that. If these data centres aren't built here, they will just be built elsewhere, and I think it's important to support building them in a location that has the potential to supply green energy through hydro, wind, tidal, and nuclear power.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Maybe the answer is never. Maybe some things are just too expensive to justify - particularly when we have record deficits and are in turbulent economic times. While budgets have different buckets of funds, there is a finite amount of dollars available. If I could bend Wayne Long’s ear, I would tell him that there are MANY priorities that are ahead of Partridge Island.

Never? I think that's an extremely pessimistic outlook. I really think it's a matter of civic pride. If Wayne Long secured 7 million in funding for a hockey arena in our richest suburb, a town with only around 12,000 people... how would it be any any worse for him and John Williamson to secure 50 million in funding for a recreation and heritage project in a city nearing 80,000+ people?

If I had Wayne Long's ear, would tell him that the city of Saint John, the most tariff threatened city in Canada, needs federal funding support for a wide arrange of priorities, and needs this funding support far more than a rich suburb like Rothesay needs the funds. We need to make this city a lot more desirable to live in, particularly the West Side of the city.

I'd also tell him that I really felt it was a bit of a slap in the face to see him get Rothesay $7 million in funding for their arena, before the West Side was even displaced by Quispamsis in the riding. The city shut down the Belyea Arena in 2020 and cited cost as the reason... yet, our MP never even tried to secure federal funding to keep the arena open for the West Side, which could have kept it open.

[JakeNB]

Good luck getting John Williamson to work with Wayne Long on anything. Odd that someone who just stated that funds come from different budgets, seems to suggest that getting money for a local priority in Rothesay is taking away from your pipe dream about Partridge Island - which doesn’t seem to be a priority for any level of government. Surprised you didn’t suggest a tunnel instead of a pier!

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Good luck getting John Williamson to work with Wayne Long on anything. Odd that someone who just stated that funds come from different budgets, seems to suggest that getting money for a local priority in Rothesay is taking away from your pipe dream about Partridge Island - which doesn’t seem to be a priority for any level of government. Surprised you didn’t suggest a tunnel instead of a pier!

That's not what I was suggesting, at all.

Saint John is around 7 times the population of Rothesay, and Rothesay received $7 million in federal funding for their arena project.

$7 million x 7 = $49 million.

So how exactly would Saint John getting $50 million in funding for a largely recreational/tourism focussed pier or causeway project at Partridge island, be any worse than Rothesay getting $7 million in funding for their arena?

But yes, good luck getting John Williamson and Wayne Long to work on a project, is right, lol

However, miracles do happen!

PS: I've heard there is or was some sort of tunnel to Partridge Island from Martello tower that was built by the British, It amazes me such a tunnel would be possible to have built back then, based on how insurmountable an engineering challenge many on this forum consider building an a tunnel between the West Side and Uptown... but it's probably not true lol

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

I think the high-level push back is that we are building thousands of data centers, which are drastically increasing global power needs, requiring highly emitting energy sources to continue operation or be built to supply them all, so ChatGPT can explain something mundane to you. This is similar to crypto farms, which had a phase of setting up and straining local electricity grids. The pure 'green' perspective on this is that we should reduce our consumption to work towards net zero at all costs.

However, a lot of current and future data centres will be used for productive purposes, regardless of whether the average Joe understands that. If these data centres aren't built here, they will just be built elsewhere, and I think it's important to support building them in a location that has the potential to supply green energy through hydro, wind, tidal, and nuclear power.

Using a global argument to oppose a local project... hmm

I too find the rise of AI, and the excessive power consumption of data centres and crypto farms to be very concerning. However, I don't think global warming and global power consumption should be their concern or strategy here. I think think their only viable strategy is to try and work with the city towards some compromises, but it doesn't really seem to be the groups priority. Still I have some sympathy for their causes, and I do hope they can work out some compromises.

As for the bolded. Pretty much in complete agreement.

[bingun]

To be fair, very few of the citizens who opposed made any comment regarding the two potential projects. I could summarize the opposition as the following -

• Historical grievances around Lorneville
• Wetlands
• Wells
• Industry pays no taxes anyway
• Dillon Consulting are incompetent
• We don't trust the EIA process
• City staff are rude and condescending in their documentation and at meetings.
• There is an election coming up next year (hint hint)

They also repeatedly got hammered about the recently received funding to plant some trees when they'll have to cut down far more for this. The timing on that one wasn't great.

Also, I don't recognize the lady who is a part of Sustainability Saint John, which I have never heard of, but she was probably the most theatrical and managed to cause some kind of verbal argument with Brent Harris and the audience. That or the gentleman who spoke about federal legislation, he somehow contributed to which was completely off topic.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by bingun

To be fair, very few of the citizens who opposed made any comment regarding the two potential projects. I could summarize the opposition as the following -

• Historical grievances around Lorneville
• Wetlands
• Wells
• Industry pays no taxes anyway
• Dillon Consulting are incompetent
• We don't trust the EIA process
• City staff are rude and condescending in their documentation and at meetings.
• There is an election coming up next year (hint hint)

They also repeatedly got hammered about the recently received funding to plant some trees when they'll have to cut down far more for this. The timing on that one wasn't great.

Also, I don't recognize the lady who is a part of Sustainability Saint John, which I have never heard of, but she was probably the most theatrical and managed to cause some kind of verbal argument with Brent Harris and the audience. That or the gentleman who spoke about federal legislation, he somehow contributed to which was completely off topic.

It was over the top dramatic at times. One guy asked if they had permission from the Maliseet - can almost guarantee they’d be a partner to scale up Burchill Wind Farm to provide clean energy to the projects (most likely the selling feature of the area for corps wanting to be “greener”. Seems to me the residents had legitimate concerns initially and they were addressed by the city, but then they couldn’t let go of their grievances - as one speaker put it, “generational trauma”.

[sailor734]

While I don't agree with their position I do have some sympathy for the Lorneville residents. It is a close knit community with some families having been there for generations. On balance they have been treated badly by governments over the years with the forced amalgamation against almost universal opposition, decades of paying full city taxes while receiving minimal city services and at least two rounds of largescale expropriation. Easy to see why there is a deep seated sense of grievance and a distrust of the city.

On another subject, I wonder if there is anyway to structure or schedule this type of council hearing so it could be handled in a single day or at best two consecutive days?

This is the second time an issue has had to be adjourned for week or more.....seems inefficient.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

To be fair, very few of the citizens who opposed made any comment regarding the two potential projects. I could summarize the opposition as the following -

• Historical grievances around Lorneville
• Wetlands
• Wells
• Industry pays no taxes anyway
• Dillon Consulting are incompetent
• We don't trust the EIA process
• City staff are rude and condescending in their documentation and at meetings.
• There is an election coming up next year (hint hint)

They also repeatedly got hammered about the recently received funding to plant some trees when they'll have to cut down far more for this. The timing on that one wasn't great.

Also, I don't recognize the lady who is a part of Sustainability Saint John, which I have never heard of, but she was probably the most theatrical and managed to cause some kind of verbal argument with Brent Harris and the audience. That or the gentleman who spoke about federal legislation, he somehow contributed to which was completely off topic.

I love how she said she "literally has a masters in communicating" and "blah, blah, blah" within the span of like 30 seconds lol.

Also, the "take a deep breath" exercise she tried to do with the audience was next level hilarious.

Originally Posted by sailor734

While I don't agree with their position I do have some sympathy for the Lorneville residents. It is a close knit community with some families having been there for generations. On balance they have been treated badly by governments over the years with the forced amalgamation against almost universal opposition, decades of paying full city taxes while receiving minimal city services and at least two rounds of largescale expropriation. Easy to see why there is a deep seated sense of grievance and a distrust of the city.

On another subject, I wonder if there is anyway to structure or schedule this type of council hearing so it could be handled in a single day or at best two consecutive days?

This is the second time an issue has had to be adjourned for week or more.....seems inefficient.

Forced amalgamation for the whole region would still be the best solution for everyone that calls this place home. What's really interesting is searching this very thread using the keyword term, "amalgamation" to see how much the conversation has changed over the years. People were a lot more positive about the idea near the start of the thread, which dates back to 2007 or 2008.

KV people put up a much bigger stink about being forced to amalgamate with Saint John in the late 90's than people in Lorneville are today about this proposed industrial expansion. The province has pushed through many forced amalgamations based on far less data than what has been studied to suggest amalgamation for the Great Saint John Region. It's absurd how the very mention of the idea nowadays is met with instant skepticism and claims that it will never happen... when it absolutely should.

[DyAm00394]

During the city growth committee meeting this afternoon was a mention of an update regarding the proposed ball hockey facility for 1660 Manawagonish Road. The facility is now being relocated to an industrial park according to a city councillor. (No further information was mentioned).

[ivegotaname]

I expect ST.Andrews to be underwater in 30 years maybe sooner it'll be a great loss for that area.
When citizens of Canada and USA decide they Want to visit and have no tariffs and sanctions on any more after triump is dead there will be a decision to have a customs merger

[bingun]

A draft 5-year capital investment plan (2026-2030) has been released from tomorrow's finance committee meeting. It will still be revised several times, but it will give you an idea of what they have planned. Lot of the usual stuff and several items related to the Canada Games Aquatic Centre.

https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=22023


A few highlights -

• Reconstruction of Charlotte Street (Broad St to Vulcan St) - 2026
• Courtney Bay Causeway (Design 2026 - Construction 2027)
• Harbour Passage Extension (Riverview Drive) - 2026
• Rockwood Park A Frame Replacement - 2026 - 2027
• City Market Strategic Plan Implementation - 2026 - 2029
• Roundabout at Gault Road and Manawagonish Road - 2027
• Douglas Avenue Street Reconstruction - 2027
• Roundabout at Loch Lomond and Airport Arterial - 2028
• Installation of New Splash Pad East Side - 2028
• Various Shamrock Park Improvements - 2029 - 2030
• Roundabout at Rothesay Road/Ashburn Road - 2030
• Harbourfront Site Redevelopment Sugar Refinery - 2030