Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugsley
I don't disagree that there are some similarities aesthetically between the two cities, but there are some pretty significant differences allowing it to support a development like this.
First, Portland is decades ahead of Saint John when it comes to their infill developments - but this has taken time and LOTS of NIMBY-ism. We all poo poo the heritage by-laws in Saint John, but Portland is a prime example of how being strict can eventually pay off. Similar to my argument before...Uptown Saint John will grow UP when it is finished filling OUT in a proper manner. The past 15 years have been a boom in Portland for in-fill apartments, restoring older warehouses, and low-rise structures. They've added more draws for people to live downtown - like a Whole Foods and Trader Joe's. Not to mention it is consistently rated as one of the hottest up and coming culinary destinations in America. However, they've refused to compromise on heritage and design rules for decades - to preserve the general aesthetic of the old port. Every in-fill is carefully evaluated to make sure it matches the historic port feel. It meant a much slower up-ramp but eventually, it paid off. Basically, they took the walk, crawl, run approach to development and now it is on fire as people want to live there.
Second, they have a much larger population than Saint John. The Portland–Lewiston–South Portland Combined Statistical Area is roughly 680K population-wise, which is more akin to Halifax, if not larger when you add it's proximity to Greater Boston.
So while it is a nice building, I once again argue that there is no point dreaming about these towers in Uptown until we solve the infill and desirability formula. That said, I'd argue that the slower pace and attention to detail taken by Portland early on could make Saint John equally as prosperous one day..
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I'm not sure why you are so insistent on things having to follow a very linear, textbook, path... I guess that's because of your background in urban planning. You clearly have a lot of good insight, but I have to disagree that there's "no point" dreaming of high rise residential towers being built in Saint John... on a forum called... get this... skyscraperpage.com
It's 2025... 30 storeys is nothing... only in this part of the continent is such a building still considered a skyscraper.
Yeah, building tall buildings involves a lot of capital, and a lot of coordinating with urban planners and the political elite, but they are still something we should be striving for in New Brunswick, or here specifically in Saint John. My biggest worry with your crawl, walk, run approach, other than that it reminds me of Rostow's stages of economic growth, is that it is too slow, and risks a lot of prime sites for development in the Uptown core being gobbled by 4 and 6 storey builds before we ever get past the crawling and walking stage. It's not like there's justification for all three levels of government to support some big development projects to tackle the housing crisis in Saint John. The Prime Minister says over and over again that now is the time to build... our MP says he wants to make Saint John the finest port city in the G7... I suggest Wayne Long along his former political protege, and now NB Minister for housing/ Saint John Harbour MLA- David Hickey, do their best to use their power and influence in the Carney and Holt governments and work together to get some much bigger projects in Saint John's development pipeline while they still can.
I'm with you that Saint John needs to do a better job at infill, and continue filling out, but when it comes to the "proper manner" of getting there, I think we seriously disagree on how we should get there. I don't think Saint John should necessarily have to wait for more medium sized infill projects like 99 King, the Landmark, or Fundy Quay to finish, before trying to attract developers to build something 30+ storeys. The mayor posted this photo today on Facebook:
I'd say there's lot's of room in this picture to put up a similarly ambitious and aesthetically pleasing high rise like the 30 storey proposed for Portland, and there's also lots of room for mid rise infill developments in this pic, and all around the central peninsula. I just think it's worth it to try and do both, since attracting the type of capital and experienced developers needed to get such projects done isn't something that happens quickly.
As OliverD just pointed out, this 30 storey
behemoth is being built just two blocks away from the
current tallest building in Maine (an 18 storey apartment building, basically the equivalent height of Brunswick Square). So again, there's some strong comparables between Saint John and Portland, despite the disparity in metropolitan populations. Maine, crazily enough, seems
even more height averse, and
even more protective of their church steeples than even New Brunswick
, judging by the height of their tallest buildings. Yet, here they are, finally green lighting a 30 storey mixed residential development. A 30+ storey mixed use residential development is not an unrealistic dream for Saint John... it's a high achievable goal that really shouldn't be considered so pie in the sky. It's not like there's no shortage of billionaires and moneyed interests in New Brunswick to fund such ambitious projects here in Saint John. It's also a dream or goal that can be worked towards independently, and not to the detriment of continued infill development priorities... multi faceted development priorities are not just possible, they are desirable.
Looking at Maine's tallest buildings, something similar to style to the Time and Temperature Building (circled)[/URL] is the type of building that Saint John should be striving for infill developments throughout the central peninsula... if we want to keep things to an aesthetic standard. Irving Oil's new HQ building proved that new buildings can enhance the skyline with simple and classic style. Concrete buildings don't need to be ugly, they can be very aesthetically pleasing. Here's some examples of early skyscrapers that are especially aesthetically pleasing, including the
first skyscraper in the world,
Canada's first skyscraper, and
Maine's first skyscraper. Buildings that evoke these type of classic styles using modern methods would greatly enhance the Saint John skyline and add to the vibe of the city in a tremendous way, that ten or twenty 4 storey or 6 storey builds can never achieve.
The style and quality of buildings Saint John should be aspiring to see built as infill developments within the city centre.
Considering it was possible to make these beautiful buildings using the technology, capital, and resources of the early 1900's, it should be more than possible to put a modern spin on these classic designs, and raise the standard of what we want to see built in Saint John. The Ingalls building, built in 1903 simply looks incredible, imagine replicating a very similar style building in Saint John re-envisioned as a mixed use residential development. Saint John should try and prioritize mid rise and high rise infill developments above six storeys in the central core of the city, as they will increase density far more than 6 storey and below builds will. Plus, if too many 4-6 storey infill projects are granted approval in the short term, the city will be selling it's long term potential short. As you say, Portland has done a really good job preserving their heritage and done a much better job with their infill developments than Saint John has.
Saint John should be trying to raising the bar for what's being built, and I don't just mean aim for taller builds... I mean raise the bar for the style and quality of new builds, especially stuff in the city centre. 99 King should have never been approved as is, and the city should still push for aesthetic improvements to the roof.
If they can build something this beautiful in Winnipeg in 1903, our city leaders sure as hell should be pushing for something
better than what has been proposed for 99 King in 2025... especially considering that
the initially approved renderings were far less aesthetically offensive than the updated renderings.
Moncton has a 30 storey residential project in their pipeline... Saint John should be trying to get its own 30+ storey project next. Saint John is the 5th largest coastal CMA in the country, yet, a very, very small percentage of housing in the Saint John CMA actually has coastal views. Ocean views mean something in real estate, no matter how much fog Sailor or our friends from Moncton claim there is in the coastal neighbourhoods of Saint John, there's still tremendous value to be unlocked by here in Saint John for ambitious mid rise and high rise developments with ocean views, and such developments needn't be confined to the Uptown/central peninsula... though projects uptown should be held to a higher aesthetic standard.
With significant funding and assistance from all three levels of government, and reliable partners in the private sector, Saint John could start planning for much bigger projects, while continuing to prioritize and improve on mid rise infill developments, and filling out the rest of the city's housing stock.
***I guess I should have also added Moncton's proposed 30 storey Infinity Tower to this list.
As this "what if" wikipedia entry shows... I still think a public private partnership that re-develops Brunswick Square into it's full, 36 storey potential as a mixed used residential development, would be a catalytic project worth massive levels of governmental funding. Not only would it be an ambitious project that would increase the housing stock in the direct, city centre, it would be a catalytic project that would have ripple effects throughout the Uptown core. Unlike building on top of a parking lot, or an infill development, this project has already completed 19 storeys,
... it's a truly unique development opportunity, and the quickest way to jumpstart Saint John's entry into the 30+ storey club, which Moncton is about to join, and Halifax has been the only member of in the maritimes since the 1970's. It's definitely not a typical type of development idea, but it was part of the initial designs for Brunswick Square... I also wouldn't say it's totally out of line with Prime Minister Carney's vision for building our way out of the housing crisis, and getting us through these troubled economic times.
This would be the type of project that could finally attract a real grocery store and reinvigorate Brunswick as a shopping destination. It would also be a huge example the government could literally point at and say, "look what we've done for the housing crisis in New Brunswick"... and look what we've done to fix one of the deadest, and most dismal malls in all of Canada. Topping out Brunswick Square to it's full 36 storey potential as a mixed residential development isn't essential to fixing Brunswick Square... but I
really do think a residential re-development and expansion of the tower the best possible option for "fixing" or reinvigorating Brunswick Square... because, is there really a better option for fixing or reimagining a dead shopping mall, than building housing for hundreds of people directly on top of it? Building an ambitious residential development right there at Brunswick Square would help achieve the goal of filling the mall back up with stores, restaurants, bars, and even some entertainment venues like a KTV bar, arcade, or VIP cinema, that will be needed to re-draw people back in to Brunswick Square. It's definitely a challenging goal to accomplish, but it's a unique opportunity, and one that would deserve major government funding assistance and partnership.
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Once again, I'll remind everyone,
Brunswick Square was selected as the location for a design competition on the main Canada forum... though I suspect thread creator TorontoDrew would be open to possibly expanding the location for the competition to be the entirety of Saint John's Uptown central peninsula. I will post and ask... as that might result in some more interesting submissions.
I certainly don't want to give the impression that re-developing and expanding Brunswick Square is the
only option to get a 30+ storey building built in Saint John, as it certainly isn't
... though, it could possibly be the
quickest way to get a 30+ storey project realized in Saint John, as once redevelopment plans were finalized, the 19 storey head start in construction would be pretty undeniable. But mostly, I just think it's a very interesting and unique possibility... a possibility that's been part of the engineering and architectural designs of the the project since its inception in the 1970's.
Nonetheless, the far more important discussion to Saint John's future, of course, is on how to improve the city's broader strategy for infill developments throughout the city... be they low rise, mid rise, high rise, or mixed use developments. I remain hopeful that we here at SSP can all continue to be part of the conversation about moving forward and pushing for better and more ambitious developments here in Saint John, a city that many of us care about deeply and have a lot of attachments to... I just hope we can also try and keep the name of the forum in mind sometimes... and aim higher here. SSP is truly one of the most unique and interesting forums left on the web... and it's especially interesting that the Atlantic Canadian sub forum is so disproportionately active.
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