Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[niwell]

I grew up in Calgary and we started Grade 4 with mandatory classes through Grade 9 - this would have been in the early to mid 90s. IIRC we had 4 classes a week which were about 45 mins. After that it was optional - I dropped it as French was always my lowest mark. Sadly languages never came easy to me (whereas everything else was pretty breezy).

[dreambrother808]

Anglophone Canadians often have this chip on their shoulder, resisting French because somehow it has been “forced” upon them. I’ve never understood that.

It’s an amazing feeling being able to utilize another language. I’m currently trying to learn Finnish and the difficulty level with such a foreign, non-Indo-European language makes me long for how comparatively easy French is for an English speaker. Learning any language is of course very challenging and time consuming.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

They basically denied me because neither of my parents were fluent in French, though my Dad grew up in Montreal, and he argued that "my wife has a French surname"

The school said they would have to accept me if my parents insisted, but that I would come home every day crying, because the other students would have all spoken French as their first language, and I didn't.

I think the real reason is if they take in too many Anglophone kids, then it's not really a Francophone school anymore, and English becomes the de facto language in the school yard.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I remember my first French teacher's name was Mr French (really!).

There are quite a few English people called "French", starting with a famous British general in WW1, but there are no French people called "Anglais". It tells you which country mattered and which didn't during the Middle Ages.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

There are quite a few English people called "French", starting with a famous British general in WW1, but there are no French people called "Anglais". It tells you which country mattered and which didn't during the Middle Ages.

"Langlois"?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I’m currently trying to learn Finnish and the difficulty level with such a foreign, non-Indo-European language makes me long for how comparatively easy French is for an English speaker.

French is relatively easy compared to most other continental European languages. No declensions (unlike most European languages). Just two genders (many European languages have 3). No imperfect subjunctive (which is used daily in Spanish). Plural is rather straightforward (and not pronounced orally in many cases), unlike many European languages where plural is like a full declension with totally different word endings (Italian "la donna" in the singular, "le donne" in the plural, German "der Mann" in the singular, "die Männer" in the plural).

The real difficulty of French is the spelling, which is conservative and etymological, with pronunciation not matching the spelling. But then English is the same, its spelling is also haphazard and conservative, with pronunciation not matching the spelling (compare "rough" and "though"), the only difference being that you're used to English spelling since the beginning of primary school, whereas French spelling is new.

French is also the continental language with most words being already used in English (due to the massive French borrowings in English), which makes learning the vocabulary infinitely easier for Anglophone speakers, but of course the difficulty for Anglophone speakers is they have to "unlearn" to pronounce words they are very familiar with ("table", "art", "nation", etc).

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The real difficulty of French is the spelling, which is conservative and etymological, with pronunciation not matching the spelling. But then English is the same, its spelling is also haphazard and conservative, with pronunciation not matching the spelling (compare "rough" and "though"), the only difference being that you're used to English spelling since the beginning of primary school, whereas French spelling is new.

True, but at least in French the rules of pronunciation are more regular. The spelling may not match but it’s rare that it doesn’t follow a standard rule of some sort. In English, it’s far more haphazard.

[New Brisavoine]

French media tonight reporting that the St Pierrais and Miquelonaise authorities have reacted with humor to the proposal to send there the dangerous illegals who are under a deportation order.

https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/on-qu...e-laurent-wauquiez-sur-les-oqtf-20250415

A deportation order is called OQTF in France (Obligation de Quitter le Territoire Français). The media have been full of that acronym, OQTF, for years now, so it's well known by everybody. We use it to refer to the illegals under a deportation order (we call them "les OQTF").

So here is the campaign launched by the St Pierrais and Miquelonaise authorities to react to the leader of the French center-right and promote their territory:







And the president of the SPM territorial council has this to say:

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I think you might be surprised how many Anglo-Saxons, or rather, should I say, you might be surprised how many English 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 will go out their way to correct other people's English. Most Canadians would consider it impolite, and maybe most Americans either wouldn't notice, or not care.

The really weird thing, is that despite us being forced to learn French from a kindergarten in Canadian public schools, the UK arguably has a higher % of French speakers than Canada does outside of Québec and Acadie. The English like to learn French because its cultured, while Canadians usually only learn French if their parents put them in French immersion school.

What's really crazy is New Brunswick has worse French immersion than most other provinces in Canada where French does not have equal status.

I think public schools in Canada should focus on a lot more bilingual education, especially in the lower grades, and French should be mandatory all the way through grade 12. If it grade 12 French was a requirement of graduation for the vast majority of Canadian high school graduates, just imagine how many of them could go on to study French in university, or at least try and continue learning the language, or consuming French media.

I stopped studying French in grade 9, because it was no longer required, yet, looking back, I always enjoyed French class, and did quite well in French class, I should have continued taking it in high school, but my high school was half french immersion, so it felt kind of pointless, since it would be a joke compared to the fluency attained from my classmates who'd been in French immersion since grade kindergarten. Looking back, I really regret not sticking with French in high school. I think at least here in Nouveau Brunswick, it's required through grade 12, but the our public education system is still failing to increase levels of bilingualism here in Canada's only bilingual province.

____

As you might be able to guess, NB, one of our favourite French words in elementary school was a term for baby seal. 🦭 Can you guess which one?

Obviously loup marin !!!

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Interesting, because I spent my entire elementary school career in Manitoba, and I swear I remember us having French learning as early as kindergarten or grade 1... I was in the Saint Boniface School Division, which might have played a role?

A really funny story is that my father tried to put me in Saint Boniface School, a French public school, and the closest school to where we lived. They basically denied me because neither of my parents were fluent in French, though my Dad grew up in Montreal, and he argued that "my wife has a French surname"

The school said they would have to accept me if my parents insisted, but that I would come home every day crying, because the other students would have all spoken French as their first language, and I didn't. I still don't understand why he went through all that effort, and then didn't enrol me in French immersion.


I'd totally believe that French language education is lagging behind or even regressed from when I was in school, which is really sad, considering how far language learning, and translation innovations have come. I firmly believe if they did a better job teaching French in Canadian public school, high school graduates will be set up to succeed in continuing to learn French once they graduate.

Here in New Brunswick, I still can't believe the general response to former premier Blaine Higgs's somewhat recent proposal to turn the Anglophone school system into a bilingual school system (leaving the Francophone System untouched) was met with such virulent opposition from both Anglophone and Francophones, and the all influential SANB, as some sort of ploy from Higgs to ruin French Immersion education in New Brunswick.

The really crazy thing, is that French Immersion in New Brunswick, Canada's only bilingual province, now starts in grade 3, while it starts in kindergarten and grade one elsewhere in Canada. Higgs wanted to get rid of the French immersion program from the Anglophone system, and make the whole Anglophone system a bilingual system, like basically what is offered in Montreal, but he was attacked from all sides for the mere suggestion, and just gave up. . . I think he was a terrible premier all around, but that was possibly his one great idea.

In general, if Canadian students are given better French language learning in public schools, they will be set up to succeed in learning the language further once they exit the public school system... there's so many new resources out there to learn languages now that didn't exist a decade ago, and there will continue to be innovations into the future. Yet, for such a no brainer idea, there's seemingly very little support for increasing French learning in public schools across Canada.

It's almost as if some people in Canada prefer the situation as it is, and don't want more Anglophones learning French. In New Brunswick, that's absolutely how it feels like to me.

French Immersion doesn't start until Grade 3 ?!?

Where I live in Northeastern Ontario, our English Public school board, District School Board Ontario North East, starts French Immersion in Junior Kindergarten. https://www.dsb1.ca/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=1126617&type=d&pREC_ID=1383177

I was in French Immersion that started that early back in the 1980s. Today the program is much better and the students learn fairly quickly. Kindergarten was only half days when I went but now the province funds full-day so most kids start at age 4 and some are 3 if their birthday falls in September or later.

Non-immersion students in Ontario have to have Core French between grade 4 and 9. But in our area Core French also begins in Kindergarten.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

There are quite a few English people called "French", starting with a famous British general in WW1, but there are no French people called "Anglais". It tells you which country mattered and which didn't during the Middle Ages.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine[/quote

There are quite a few English people called "French", starting with a famous British general in WW1, but there are no French people called "Anglais". It tells you which country mattered and which didn't during the Middle Ages.

I've known a few "Langlais".

[MolsonExport]

Jean Langlais

Jean François-Hyacinthe Langlais III (15 February 1907 – 8 May 1991) was a French composer of modern classical music, organist, and improviser. He described himself as "Breton, de foi Catholique" ("Breton, of Catholic faith").

Xavier de Langlais (1906-1994): A French poet and writer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_de_Langlais
Pierre-Charles Langlais. French politician. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Langlais
Dominique Langlais, a French film producer.
Simon Langlais, a Canadian professional ice hockey player.
Marie-Claude Langlais, a French actress.
Donald Langlais, a Canadian artist.
Pierre Langlais, a French lawyer and politician.
Jean-Paul Langlais, a Canadian politician.
Robert Langlais, a Belgian lawyer and politician.
Joël Langlais, a French engineer and entrepreneur.
Rachel Langlais, a Canadian actress.
Jean-François Langlais, a French actor.
Paul Langlais, a Canadian politician.
Gilles Langlais, a French journalist and television presenter.
Michel Langlais, a French mathematician and university professor.
Jean-François Langlais, a French poet and writer.
Bernard Langlais, an American artist.
Hubert Langlais, a French actor.

The surname Langlais is a French ethnic name, meaning "Englishman". It's derived from the French word "Anglais" (Englishman) with the fused definite article "l'".

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by Loco101

French Immersion doesn't start until Grade 3 ?!?

Where I live in Northeastern Ontario, our English Public school board, District School Board Ontario North East, starts French Immersion in Junior Kindergarten. https://www.dsb1.ca/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=1126617&type=d&pREC_ID=1383177

I was in French Immersion that started that early back in the 1980s. Today the program is much better and the students learn fairly quickly. Kindergarten was only half days when I went but now the province funds full-day so most kids start at age 4 and some are 3 if their birthday falls in September or later.

Non-immersion students in Ontario have to have Core French between grade 4 and 9. But in our area Core French also begins in Kindergarten.

I don't have any kids, and I've been out of NB's education system for decades (but my mom was/is a teacher in it so I had a bit of exposure). IMO, NB's efforts are hindered by how it set itself up. It set up parallel and independent school systems for French and English, and never the two shall meet; not even when it comes to busing.

While some argue that helps protect French students, especially in Anglo dominant areas, I get the feeling the lack of mingling is ultimately hurting both sides.

I don't know enough to know what the solution is; and I doubt the political will is there to do anything. But my gut feel is that as a bilingual province, we should be doing more to make sure BOTH languages are emphasized in the school system from Grade 1 to Graduation. Maybe not full mandatory French/Anglo immersion; but more than just a token lesson in the other language in each grade. Maybe designing hybrid classes (maths, sciences, histories), that are taught simultaneously in both French and English, so students get exposure to the languages outside of the Language specific course.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I am very sad that England was not able to retain their continental possessions.

Having lands with a warmer climate would have done wonders for the English soul...........

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Jean Langlais



Xavier de Langlais (1906-1994): A French poet and writer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_de_Langlais
Pierre-Charles Langlais. French politician. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Langlais
Dominique Langlais, a French film producer.
Simon Langlais, a Canadian professional ice hockey player.
Marie-Claude Langlais, a French actress.
Donald Langlais, a Canadian artist.
Pierre Langlais, a French lawyer and politician.
Jean-Paul Langlais, a Canadian politician.
Robert Langlais, a Belgian lawyer and politician.
Joël Langlais, a French engineer and entrepreneur.
Rachel Langlais, a Canadian actress.
Jean-François Langlais, a French actor.
Paul Langlais, a Canadian politician.
Gilles Langlais, a French journalist and television presenter.
Michel Langlais, a French mathematician and university professor.
Jean-François Langlais, a French poet and writer.
Bernard Langlais, an American artist.
Hubert Langlais, a French actor.

The surname Langlais is a French ethnic name, meaning "Englishman". It's derived from the French word "Anglais" (Englishman) with the fused definite article "l'".

Shhhhh..........

You're challenging NB's sense of Gallic superiority. He may lash out!!!

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Loco101

French Immersion doesn't start until Grade 3 ?!?

Where I live in Northeastern Ontario, our English Public school board, District School Board Ontario North East, starts French Immersion in Junior Kindergarten. https://www.dsb1.ca/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=1126617&type=d&pREC_ID=1383177

I was in French Immersion that started that early back in the 1980s. Today the program is much better and the students learn fairly quickly.

In Toronto there are two entry points: JK and Grade 5. I'm guessing Timmins also has French immersion in the separate school board?

Toronto has FI in the two publicly-funded boards and then there's an entirely separate, also publicly-funded, French language school board called Viamonde which is intended for children of parents who are native French-speakers* (the parents have to prove fluency).

Looking at the geography of Viamonde's high schools, you can see they cover a territory stretching from the GTA to anything to the south and west - from Windsor to Niagara and up to Midland/Penetanguishene. They can supply entirely separate French-language high schools in cities as small and as traditionally un-French as Sarnia, which is frankly pretty good. We're not talking about a place like Hawkesbury here.


*My friend is fluent, but is a mangiacake guy with English/Scottish ancestry with zero French in his family history. He had to do a conversational interview in French by Viamonde, which he passed, but his daughter was put on the waitlist because the demand was so high.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Toronto has FI in the two publicly-funded boards and then there's an entirely separate, also publicly-funded, French language school board called Viamonde which is intended for children of parents who are native French-speakers* (the parents have to prove fluency).

Minor nitpick, but Toronto is covered by two publicly funded French-language boards: The public Viamonde and Catholic MonAvenir.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I am very sad that England was not able to retain their continental possessions.

Having lands with a warmer climate would have done wonders for the English soul...........

In fact it's the other way around. England was a possession of the continental Plantagenets (who were dukes of Anjou). Richard the Lionheart famously set foot only once in his entire life in England, spoke no English, and otherwise lived like a French prince in France. He's buried at Fontevraud abbey in Anjou. Ironically the English erected his statue in front of the parliamanent of Westminster as if he was some sort of national hero.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Jean Langlais



Xavier de Langlais (1906-1994): A French poet and writer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_de_Langlais
Pierre-Charles Langlais. French politician. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Langlais
Dominique Langlais, a French film producer.
Simon Langlais, a Canadian professional ice hockey player.
Marie-Claude Langlais, a French actress.
Donald Langlais, a Canadian artist.
Pierre Langlais, a French lawyer and politician.
Jean-Paul Langlais, a Canadian politician.
Robert Langlais, a Belgian lawyer and politician.
Joël Langlais, a French engineer and entrepreneur.
Rachel Langlais, a Canadian actress.
Jean-François Langlais, a French actor.
Paul Langlais, a Canadian politician.
Gilles Langlais, a French journalist and television presenter.
Michel Langlais, a French mathematician and university professor.
Jean-François Langlais, a French poet and writer.
Bernard Langlais, an American artist.
Hubert Langlais, a French actor.

The surname Langlais is a French ethnic name, meaning "Englishman". It's derived from the French word "Anglais" (Englishman) with the fused definite article "l'".

Never heard or met any "Langlais" in France. It's one of these surnames found in Québec but not in France, because so many people in Québec descend from the one odd ancestor who bore that name.

French is a very common surname in England. Langlais is so rare in France you can spend your entire life here without ever meeting or hearing about one. "Langlois" (Medieval spelling) is more frequent, but still not that frequent (I've seen the name in historical context in Normandy, but never actually met a Langlois in real life). According to INSEE it was only the 153rd most frequent family name in France in the 20th century: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_noms_de_famille_les_plus_courants_en_France

Langlais did not even make it in the list, because it's so rare (if it exists at all in France today).