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  #281  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2025, 7:10 PM
Tesladom Tesladom is offline
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I added up the transit costed plans in this report, and I get to $11.7B just for O-train and busway projects.
This is really silly. I think Public Transit has its place but these costs are out of control
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  #282  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2025, 9:03 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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I must completely agree. I think that a lot of the high cost is because of scope-creep. Take Baseline Road BRT, for example. This was a project to add bus lanes. Then it grew to constructing a huge, all inclusive, transportation super-corridor. This massive project requires a whole lot of property acquisition, which jacks up the cost.

Of course, the hired consultants get more money for larger projects. It is no wonder that they more often than not recommend the most that they can convince the City to buy.
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  #283  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2025, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tesladom View Post
I added up the transit costed plans in this report, and I get to $11.7B just for O-train and busway projects.
This is really silly. I think Public Transit has its place but these costs are out of control

There's 21km of rail and 24km of brt in that list, which works out to 244M/km

That's still a bargain compared to other cities.

In the GTA, the Ontario line comes in at a staggering 31 billion, and it's only 15km long.
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  #284  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2025, 4:26 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Not a fair comparison, of course. You are equating suburban surface rail and BRT lanes to a mostly tunneled subway through downtown Toronto. But that number for the Ontario Line does show further evidence that the cost of transit projects in Ontario is completely outrageous.
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  #285  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2025, 5:16 PM
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Not a fair comparison, of course. You are equating suburban surface rail and BRT lanes to a mostly tunneled subway through downtown Toronto. But that number for the Ontario Line does show further evidence that the cost of transit projects in Ontario is completely outrageous.
It was just the most egregious example. But really, the costs for Stage 3 aren't particularly out of line with other cities especially when you consider the rail portions would be fully grade seperated.

For example, Line 6 Finch $250M/km or the Valley Line (Edmonton) $167M/km are both at-grade with grade crossings, are in a similar price range.

Inflation over the pandemic greatly increased the price of projects more than people realized. Something that cost 150M/km in 2015 would cost 194M/km today
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  #286  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2025, 1:08 PM
Tesladom Tesladom is offline
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I don't take public transit but my daughter does every day. The number of times the bus doesn't come or very late is not acceptable

Back in the early 90's when I was riding the bus, the service was excellent, I travelled everywhere in the city. Fast forward 35 years and $10Billion in "investments", the service 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.
That's the reality and there is ZERO accountability, the nerve to have another $11B in planned/costed projects is simply ridiculous
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  #287  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2025, 2:47 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Back in the ‘90s, Ottawa’s public transit system was completely bus based. There were exclusive transit corridors, the Transitways, that enabled buses to move quickly from one area of town to another, away from the interference of general traffic.

Was transit perfect in the ‘90s? Of course not. Buses, especially those that did not run along the various Transitways, were often late. There were issues of buses being removed from runs because they were so late that they were over-taken by later runs. “Sorry for being late – my bus didn’t come.” was not an unheard apology back then either. The difference is the frequency that it was used. It was occasional back then; but much more common now.

The huge transit investments that have been made recently are mostly to change the mode of the Transitways from being bus roadways to railways. This is not a cheap conversion. Where as a paved strip of roadway is ‘low-tech’, modern railways are anything but simple. And the price for electrified rail infrastructure is quickly becoming much more expensive. This is a big problem because, in order to be useful, a rail-based system needs to be complete. i.e., A train can not detour onto the street to bypass an unfinished section of track.

Fundamentally, a bus-based Transitway system and a rail-based Trunk Line system are different. A bus can function as a ‘Local’ bus, picking up passengers throughout a neighbourhood before it jumps onto a bus-only expressway to get to another part of town, where it again running as a ‘Local’ bus to distribute those passengers. This has the benefit of providing a single seat ride between distant areas with minimal slowdowns. It has a relatively low construction cost but, because of the rather small capacity of each bus, requires high operating costs for the many buses needed for a high-capacity system. If there is a problem within the Transitway system, buses can be temporarily diverted onto parallel roadways.

Trains run on Trunk Lines to provide a very high capacity between two areas. But trains do not leave that Trunk route. Local bus service is still needed to pick up passengers in their neighbourhoods and then again to distribute them to their final destination. This generally involves transfers onto and off of the train; and, potentially, also between trains if the passenger needs to change directions. The high capacity of each train can reduce the cost of operators vis-à-vis buses, but is most effective when moving large number of passengers. If the trains are sparsely filled, they can be more expensive to run than buses. This can lead to a reduction of train frequency in an effort to better use their capacity. i.e., it is harder to ‘Right Size’ the service with a balance of frequency, capacity, and cost when the vehicles are very large. A big issue for transit systems that have rail lines comes when there is a problem on a rail line. There suddenly needs to be another high-capacity way of moving the passengers past the problem point. Usually this involves running shuttle buses – but that means that the transit agency needs to have a ready back-up supply of buses and drivers.

Personally, I think that it was a mistake to switch from a bus-based system to a hybrid one; where back-bone routes are provided by rail lines. The promises that trains would ‘fix’ capacity problems while saving a large amount of operating cost where, in my opinion, over-sold.

However, that is one opinion, and, apparently, not the opinion of the city staff and political leaders of the day. The train has left the station, and the only option now is to continue to pay increasingly more to complete the lines and operate them.

(Luckily, it is only public money; and there seem to be no real consequences for making bad decisions with regards to the use of it.)
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  #288  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2025, 3:33 PM
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2013



2025

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  #289  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2025, 3:37 PM
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Quite frustrating. How after 13 years of significant growth have we downgraded our plan? Somehow only the suburbs, where commuting has reduced, have gained with Stage 3's multi billion extension. Meanwhile, the cheaper suburban projects are gone, much of the urban projects have been cut back, eliminated or greatly downgraded.

But hey! we added bus lanes through the Greenbelt parallel to Line 2, because the capacity problems will be between Limebank and South Keys, not the northern section where we have density and urbanites that rely exclusively on transit and active transportation... oh wait?
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  #290  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2025, 3:39 PM
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Even needs based that requires huge investments from upper Govs is pretty tame.



Here's the road network with plenty of useless new roads and widenings that will negatively impact transit.



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  #291  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2025, 3:42 PM
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Cycling network. Seems very disconnected. Wish they had added existing and u/c network on their just to get a better sense.

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  #292  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2025, 8:15 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Quite frustrating. How after 13 years of significant growth have we downgraded our plan? Somehow only the suburbs, where commuting has reduced, have gained with Stage 3's multi billion extension. Meanwhile, the cheaper suburban projects are gone, much of the urban projects have been cut back, eliminated or greatly downgraded.

But hey! we added bus lanes through the Greenbelt parallel to Line 2, because the capacity problems will be between Limebank and South Keys, not the northern section where we have density and urbanites that rely exclusively on transit and active transportation... oh wait?
I love two parallel rapid transit routes south both going through the deepest part of Greenbelt, neither serving my neighbourhood which is exactly in between the two. What is it with this sudden obsession with Conroy Road? There has never been a continuous bus route on Conroy Road. In fact, we are about to eliminate the transit link going north from Findlay Creek on this supposed priority. What transit destinations does it serve? Who ever came up with this idea doesn't know the area. But it will be cheap to add bus lanes on Conroy compared to following a more useful route.
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  #293  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2025, 6:34 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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OK, does this make any sense?

Ottawa’s planners are endorsing the building of the 4-lane Alta Vista Transportation Corridor (AVTC) roadway. This will be a major traffic conduit from the south-east to the Hurdman area. However, the planners are recommending that the last segment of that roadway, the connection over the Rideau River to connect to the 4-lane Nicholas, be deleted. Their idea is that traffic from that 4-lane road should be dumped onto the existing, already busy, 4-lane Riverside Drive. From there, drivers would use the already over-capacity 417 to get to Nicholas.

And, I see that the planners are also recommending that the protected RoW for Riverside, from Smyth to Industrial – in the middle of which is where the AVTC traffic would be dumped – have its protected width reduced from the current 44.5 metre width down to 40 metres. This will ensure that there is little room to increase the road capacity over the four lanes that currently exist.

It is my opinion that the City should protect the possible bridge connecting the AVTC to Nicholas. If two lanes of the AVTC are extended up to Nicholas, it could help with current and future bottle-necks. Along with this, the planners should be looking at connecting the Vanier Parkway to the M-C Bridge, to relieve the traffic on Nicholas; and they should be working toward getting the eastern bridge over the Ottawa River built. All three of these elements will be needed to ensure smoother traffic flow in the future.
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  #294  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2025, 10:40 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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OK, does this make any sense?

Ottawa’s planners are endorsing the building of the 4-lane Alta Vista Transportation Corridor (AVTC) roadway. This will be a major traffic conduit from the south-east to the Hurdman area. However, the planners are recommending that the last segment of that roadway, the connection over the Rideau River to connect to the 4-lane Nicholas, be deleted. Their idea is that traffic from that 4-lane road should be dumped onto the existing, already busy, 4-lane Riverside Drive. From there, drivers would use the already over-capacity 417 to get to Nicholas.

And, I see that the planners are also recommending that the protected RoW for Riverside, from Smyth to Industrial – in the middle of which is where the AVTC traffic would be dumped – have its protected width reduced from the current 44.5 metre width down to 40 metres. This will ensure that there is little room to increase the road capacity over the four lanes that currently exist.

It is my opinion that the City should protect the possible bridge connecting the AVTC to Nicholas. If two lanes of the AVTC are extended up to Nicholas, it could help with current and future bottle-necks. Along with this, the planners should be looking at connecting the Vanier Parkway to the M-C Bridge, to relieve the traffic on Nicholas; and they should be working toward getting the eastern bridge over the Ottawa River built. All three of these elements will be needed to ensure smoother traffic flow in the future.
Sounds par for the course for Ottawa planning
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  #295  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2025, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
OK, does this make any sense?

Ottawa’s planners are endorsing the building of the 4-lane Alta Vista Transportation Corridor (AVTC) roadway. This will be a major traffic conduit from the south-east to the Hurdman area. However, the planners are recommending that the last segment of that roadway, the connection over the Rideau River to connect to the 4-lane Nicholas, be deleted. Their idea is that traffic from that 4-lane road should be dumped onto the existing, already busy, 4-lane Riverside Drive. From there, drivers would use the already over-capacity 417 to get to Nicholas.

And, I see that the planners are also recommending that the protected RoW for Riverside, from Smyth to Industrial – in the middle of which is where the AVTC traffic would be dumped – have its protected width reduced from the current 44.5 metre width down to 40 metres. This will ensure that there is little room to increase the road capacity over the four lanes that currently exist.

It is my opinion that the City should protect the possible bridge connecting the AVTC to Nicholas. If two lanes of the AVTC are extended up to Nicholas, it could help with current and future bottle-necks. Along with this, the planners should be looking at connecting the Vanier Parkway to the M-C Bridge, to relieve the traffic on Nicholas; and they should be working toward getting the eastern bridge over the Ottawa River built. All three of these elements will be needed to ensure smoother traffic flow in the future.
Yeah, I agree. The Alta Vista Expressway should be all or nothing. The current plan to build all but the Nicholas connection is nonsensical.
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  #296  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2025, 2:00 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Yeah, I agree. The Alta Vista Expressway should be all or nothing. The current plan to build all but the Nicholas connection is nonsensical.
We can't do that because we don't want cars downtown and current transit policy will not allow a bus to use this corridor and compete with Line 1 even if is much faster.. Transit service speed is no longer a priority, obviously.
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  #297  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2025, 2:24 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Cycling network. Seems very disconnected. Wish they had added existing and u/c network on their just to get a better sense.

Is it just me or are your images not appearing?
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  #298  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2025, 2:29 PM
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Is it just me or are your images not appearing?
It's just you. Try clearing your browser cache, or try another browser?
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  #299  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2025, 2:02 AM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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We can't do that because we don't want cars downtown and current transit policy will not allow a bus to use this corridor and compete with Line 1 even if is much faster.. Transit service speed is no longer a priority, obviously.
Actually I think a bigger issue is Nicholas itself, it's already jammed both directions in rush hour, even in these times. The Alta Vista Parkway connector would make it worse.

As for buses to downtown, they probably weren't ever in consideration, they probably planned to just run the buses along the AVP to the transitway connection. That was the plan back in the 90s and would have been today as well
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  #300  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2025, 1:44 PM
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Actually I think a bigger issue is Nicholas itself, it's already jammed both directions in rush hour, even in these times. The Alta Vista Parkway connector would make it worse.

As for buses to downtown, they probably weren't ever in consideration, they probably planned to just run the buses along the AVP to the transitway connection. That was the plan back in the 90s and would have been today as well
If the Kettle Island Bridge is ever built, and trucks are all rerouted (other than the ones that have business Downtown), then extending the Alta Vista Parkway wouldn't be too much of an issue, traffic wise.
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