Manitoba | Highways

[drew]

^ pre-cast is fine - but let's not pretend there aren't cost implications. Otherwise that's all people would use for buildings, let along infrastructure projects.

There are also structural limitations with the use of precast.

Anyway my comment about concrete was mostly because of the example from China that you provided - so please don't use that as a segway into some other topic.

[bomberjet]

I was looking through the MTI infrastructure planning document again. And they have PTH 15 twinning from 101 to 206 identified in the 2025-2029 projects list timeframe. Hoping that's a nod to the second floodway bridge, which makes the interchange at 101/15 much easier.

[Carboy15]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I was looking through the MTI infrastructure planning document again. And they have PTH 15 twinning from 101 to 206 identified in the 2025-2029 projects list timeframe. Hoping that's a nod to the second floodway bridge, which makes the interchange at 101/15 much easier.

If that's true, that would be amazing. Highway 15 really needs it there.

I wonder when Highway 15 (or Route 115) will be twinned West of the Perimeter? The Malteurop Malting Plant alongside the Highway would be harder to twin around, as some houses would require expropriation.

[Carboy15]

https://stroadz.glide.page/dl/d0a5f4/s/c0a8e8/r/OtOUehlMoyuPXWFUIAoL

Here's how Route 115 would probably bypass the Malteurop.

[bodaggin]

.

[Carboy15]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Galway Interchange. St Johns, Newfoundland. (2022)

Contract value: $10.3M

Even has turning circles too. Uses "Cor-Arch" construction. Basically a quonset on a footing with dirt on top. Rural overpasses don't cost $100 million.

Article: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/galway-interchange-construction-1.7313361
Method: https://www.ail.ca/project/ultra-cor-arc...galway-tch-interchange-near-st-johns-nl/
Maps: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.4954659,...MDQwOS4wIKXMDSoJLDEwMjExNjM5SAFQAw%3D%3D

I haven't been there, but I'm pretty sure that the elevation in the Maritimes isn't flat like Manitoba. It's probably much easier to build Interchanges there on a ridge. Here you actually need to compose structures, therefore digging and ramps need to be built.

Not sure exactly, but this is my guess

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Carboy15

It's probably much easier to build Interchanges there on a ridge. Here you actually need to compose structures, therefore digging and ramps need to be built.

Newfoundland gets 4 feet of annual rainfall. Not 4". They get 4 FEET. Try building in that.

We need to stop making excuses for Manitoba's failures. Manitoba is not the most difficult place in the world to build by a factor of 10. It just isn't. The reality is: MB construction methods are outdated, our bureaucracy is insane, decision makers are incompetent, designs are extravagant, and citizens have been pacified into thinking these failures are normal. We can't normalize this. It needs more pressure.

[Carboy15]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Newfoundland gets 4 feet of annual rainfall. Not 4". They get 4 FEET. Try building in that.

We need to stop making excuses for Manitoba's failures. Manitoba is not the most difficult place in the world to build by a factor of 10. It just isn't. The reality is: MB construction methods are outdated, our bureaucracy is insane, decision makers are incompetent, designs are extravagant, and citizens have been pacified into thinking these failures are normal. We can't normalize this. It needs more pressure.

Totally agree with this. I always look at the St Marys Overpass and I get that they're future-proofing, but they could've done a much simpler design. They could've made a Folded Diamond Interchange on the existing alignment and dual roundabout. Would've been good for years yet. Not trying to be a Grinch because I'm glad this Interchange was built finally, but it's an example of an overbuilt project that could've been much simpler and saved money.

Similar to McGillvary with my drawing of the simple Parclo on the existing alignment. I've always hated that they're realigning Highway 3 and 100 for a Diamond. In that space we could place a cloverleaf. Not a cloverleaf fan, but there it's different because it has a lower traffic volume than McPhillips and Main, where a Parclo makes sense.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Carboy15

I haven't been there, but I'm pretty sure that the elevation in the Maritimes isn't flat like Manitoba. It's probably much easier to build Interchanges there on a ridge. Here you actually need to compose structures, therefore digging and ramps need to be built.

Not sure exactly, but this is my guess

Have driven that stretch many times. Though it's not pancake flat, the elevation changes are not that great and there are no "ridges" in that area. Highway construction in Newfoundland has two challenges typically not found in southern Manitoba, at least. Bog and rock. Lots of fill required and lots of blasting in areas. This will be a fairly busy interchange as it leads to a large big box and residential development; which contains Canada's largest Costco.

The Atlantic provinces seem to get much better bang for their buck when it comes to highway construction vs. Manitoba.

And BTW, Newfoundland is not part of the Maritimes.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

The Atlantic provinces seem to get much better bang for their buck when it comes to highway construction vs. Manitoba.

You're spot on about this. Any theories why? Do they have road pride? Oil money? They're not much richer than Manitoba per capita. But they're LOADED with overpasses.

I counted 40+ overpasses on a 150km stretch of TCH into St John's. They're everywhere. Here's an overpass access for like 30 cabins. This seems excessive (even for an overpass lover like me), but they're doing something right. Send the entire MTI Department there to learn proper roadbuilding.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@47.4240969,-..._ep=EgoyMDI1MDQwOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[Carboy15]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

You're spot on about this. Any theories why? Do they have road pride? Oil money? They're not much richer than Manitoba per capita. But they're LOADED with overpasses.

I counted 40+ overpasses on a 150km stretch of TCH into St John's. They're everywhere. Here's an overpass access for like 30 cabins. This seems excessive (even for an overpass lover like me), but they're doing something right. Send the entire MTI Department there to learn proper roadbuilding.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@47.4240969,-..._ep=EgoyMDI1MDQwOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

The Western Canadian Provinces is much bigger in size has much more roads to cover. The Maritimes are smaller in comparison to Manitoba.

But I think Manitoba and Canada in general needs to pull their socks up in building expressways.

Plus, Western Canada didn't really have an Interconnected Road or Freeway system until recently. Deerfoot turned off its final traffic light in 2005, Anthony Henday Started in 1990 and finished 2016, Stoney Trail was slowly constructed between the mid 90s and finished 2023.

But I'm not sure if that's the reason because surprisingly, Saskatchewan is ahead of Manitoba in expressways. But don't forget it has more Intercity connection with others, similar to Alberta. But Manitoba has less connection with other cities.

Highway 1 wasn't twinned from Indian Head SK? to Virden MB til the late 2000s.

[Carboy15]

Unlike the USA, Western Canada never had any kind of Federal Highway system that rivals the Interstates. Well, the 400 Series Highways and Quebec Autoroutes took inspiration from the Autobahn, therefore we were slightly ahead of the Interstates. We never had a vision for a Federal Nationwide Freeway system.

Technically Lower Mainland BC already has freeways, and Alberta; Most of Highway 2 between Calgary and Edmonton is freeway with exception of some at-grade Intersections, same with Highway 1 between Banff and Calgary.

If we did make a Route 1 (using the Trans Canada Highway), it would look like I-69 now, where it is broken pieces of Freeway. It's just going to be a long time before both Highways become full freeway.

[bodaggin]

.

[Mr Tall Forehead]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

I just counted them.

Manitoba - 29 overpasses
Newfoundland - 78 overpasses

Nfld has almost triple. All while MB has 3x the population, 75% higher GDP, 2x the highway budget, and roughly the same core highway kilometers. Wow. I hope reporters are watching this thread. This needs publishing. MB needs to learn from Nfld.

Curious what you mean by ‘core highway kilometres’? Because in addition to 1, 100/101, 75 and 16, there are a few 1000 km of provincial roads, bridges and flood prevention infrastructure that are coming out of that budget you’re referring to.

Just providing some food for thought for the reporters watching the thread…

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Mr Tall Forehead

Curious what you mean by ‘core highway kilometres’?

Using this GoC data.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/corporate-services/policies/road-transportation-0

Agree, it's not super clear. Using Table 1 shows ~1,000km of "core routes" for both Nfld and MB. This seems the most relevant metric, since we're only talking about grade separating main routes (TCH, Perimeter, etc).

I think the point you're raising is "but MB has more provincial road kms, which would pull funding away from grade separating main routes". If so, valid. To your point, Table 2 in that link shows total paved roads at 19.3k for MB, and 10.6k for Nfld. But I'm unsure if that includes municipal kms, which would offset those numbers (CoW is 7.2k alone).

One thing is for certain though: Spending 10x more per overpass yields 10x fewer overpasses constructed.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

You're spot on about this. Any theories why? Do they have road pride? Oil money? They're not much richer than Manitoba per capita. But they're LOADED with overpasses.

I counted 40+ overpasses on a 150km stretch of TCH into St John's. They're everywhere. Here's an overpass access for like 30 cabins. This seems excessive (even for an overpass lover like me), but they're doing something right. Send the entire MTI Department there to learn proper roadbuilding.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@47.4240969,-..._ep=EgoyMDI1MDQwOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Certainly, Newfoundland does have "oil money" which helps with its infrastructure development. Provincial revenue from oil production is about $1.5B annually. However, their equalization payment for 2025-26 is $113M vs. $4.7B in Manitoba. Unfortunately local politics have gotten in the way of upgrades. There's a reason why the four-lane ends abruptly just east of Whitbourne and has not yet been upgraded through Gander.

In NB and NS, they have been aggressive in upgrading their highways to an Interstate or Ontario 400-series standard. Both provinces, NS in particular, have been using P3 to fund a significant portion of their highway upgrades.

[Winnipegger]

People should also take into consideration:

A) engineering: the difference in the cost of infrastructure between the two provinces. Not to beat a dead horse, but the soil considerations in Manitoba likely lead to higher costs compared to the Maritimes even if the project design were to be the exact same.

B) existing infrastructure and population obligations: Manitoba is a much older province (in terms of area developed) and has a significant northern population. This means we have a lot of older infrastructure that needs to be maintained/renewed which soaks up a lot of capital dollars. Further, a significant amount of our northern population require extensive medical care that's centralized Winnipeg, and this soaks up a lot of federal fiscal transfers needed to fund our healthcare system leaving less for infrastructure investment.

C) missing the boat for "cheap" infrastructure: I don't know when NFLD invested in their road system, but road infrastructure has become very expensive over the last decade. If Manitoba would have "taken advantage" of cheaper infrastructure costs in the 70s/80s and built out the network more quickly then, we wouldn't be looking at $150 million per interchange in 2025. Infrastructure/construction costs have quite easily outpaced regular inflation (CPI) and wage growth, making it increasingly difficult for taxpayers as a collective to prioritize road investments over other public assets.

But I agree. Manitoba sort of stands alone in Canada for its utter lack of free-flowing highway networks, even compared to smaller or less wealthy provinces.

[bomberjet]

To get an actual comparison, we need to see pricing. How much concrete, steel, earthworks, utilities, engineering, property, etc. Otherwise we're waxing poetic.

[bomberjet]

10.3 million to install the steel arch and road detour? This article has more info. Based on the imagery in the AIL webpage, there seems to be lots of elevations change already built into that area which makes everything a lot easier.

https://www.gov.nl.ca/releases/2024/ti/1213n05/

But it is a case of MTI seems to blow up the entire area, rebuild the lanes, widened medians, etc. We've been through this. Undoubtedly though, building the steel arch is cheaper than a conventional concrete girder design for MTI.

I also wonder how the cement supply monopoly plays into all this.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

I don't know when NFLD invested in their road system, but road infrastructure has become very expensive over the last decade. If Manitoba would have "taken advantage" of cheaper infrastructure costs in the 70s/80s, we wouldn't be looking at $150 million per interchange in 2025.

This NFLD underpass was awarded in 2022 though. It's current. Inflation is not relevant.