Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The French (educated ones at least) know Acadie. I think they'll never know New Brunswick (it's neither important nor geographically significant like "Terre-Neuve", which also happens to be next to Saint Pierre and Miquelon, so is well known in France... we even call the fishermen traditionnally fishing in Newfoundland waters "les terre-neuvas", a term that is well known in France, because our history with Terre-Neuve is ancient and predates English colonization).

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terre-neuvas

Acadie doesn't really have a city, so no city is known in France (although sometimes I've heard about Dieppe here, but not everybody would know it, only those who are interested in Acadie, but there are quite a few of them in France).

PS: Interestingly, although most French people have heard about "Terre-Neuve", I think only very few of them would know how it's called in English if you asked them (probably less than 1% would know the English name).

I’ll concede NB has less geographic significance or prominence as Newfoundland… but importance? That’s very much debatable. Must you be so flagrant about places you really don’t know very much about?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Wouldn't you say "at this/that time" or "at the moment"?

Yes, but where does the "-ci" come from?? It's puzzling because "-ci" is very literary, so denotes a certain effort on the part of the (Anglophone) speaker, but leading to a mistake here. We say "ces temps-ci" (these days), but "en ce moment" ("en ce moment-ci" is maybe a québécisme, I don't know, but is not used here, and "à ce moment-ci" is definitely wrong). On the other hand, we do say "à ce moment-là" (often pronounced "à s'moment là" here), but never "à ce moment-ci". Languages!

"A ce moment-là" normally means "and then..." (something happened, unexpectedly), but in colloquial use we use it to say "if that's the case", as in: "A s'moment là, fallait pas v'nir !" ("if that's the case [or "if you don't like it"] then you shouldn't have come!"). This colloquial use is found in Europe but maybe not in Québec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

And Saint John is sort of the northern end of what might be considered Acadia. If you go down to an Acadian town like Pubnico the climate is about on par with somewhere in Denmark, which is colder than Paris but nowhere near any kind of extreme as far as humanity or developed areas go.

One small point is the seasons are shifted a bit. A little less so in NB but in a lot of NS, April is colder than November. It's maybe shifted by one month compared to Europe. Another is you get a lot more bright sunshine in the winter in the Maritimes than in Western Europe (plus it's farther south than areas with comparable climates so the sun is higher in the sky and stronger). +1 in bright sunshine (and with some snow on the ground making things even brighter) can be nicer than +7 and dreary rain. I'm not sure I'd take, say, Dublin weather over Halifax, and a lot of UKers who move to the Maritimes note that they like the climate.

You are right about Pubnico’s climate but the vast majority of Acadiens live in northern and southeastern New Brunswick, so in climates colder in winter than both Pubnico and Saint John.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Never heard Saint-Jean-Nouveau-Brunswick in France. In fact 99.99% of French people don't know any city from New Brunswick. I've heard Saint-Jean-de-Terre-Neuve though (but with a crucial "de" in the middle).

Yes we add the « de » sometimes as well.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I had Canadian francophones in mind.

You say "Saint-Jean-Terre-Neuve" without a "de"?

Wikipedia has the necessary "de": https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Jean_de_Terre-Neuve

I would feel something is missing.

And to our Anglophone friends here, it's pronounced (as is often the case, because we do not pronounce all the letters): "Sain Jean d'Terrneuve"

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You say "Saint-Jean-Terre-Neuve" without a "de"?

Wikipedia has the necessary "de": https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Jean_de_Terre-Neuve

I would feel something is missing.

And to our Anglophone friends here, it's pronounced (as is often the case, because we do not pronounce all the letters): "Sain Jean d'Terrneuve"

We may say both, to be honest.

[New Brisavoine]

More generally, if the French know 6 provinces/regions in Canada, it's gonna be "le Québec, "l'Ontario", "l'Acadie", "Terre-Neuve" (no article), "la Nouvelle-Ecosse", and "la Colombie-Britannique". "Le Nouveau-Brunswick" is both a mouthfull and also not well known (it's "l'Acadie" which is known here). PEI, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta are also not well known here. "Le Yukon" is known, but mostly due to 'Uncle Scrooge' comic books and the gold rush (although I have a feeling many French people imagine that Yukon is somewhere in the US).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You are right about Pubnico’s climate but the vast majority of Acadiens live in northern and southeastern New Brunswick, so in climates colder in winter than both Pubnico and Saint John.

You probably know all this but, as far as this discussion goes, Samuel de Champlain abandoned settling the St-Croix island area (same coast as Saint John), citing the harsher climate, and ended up building Port-Royal in the Annapolis Valley which was the more persistent settlement that evolved into Acadia. That western end of NS was the original Acadian heartland, and Acadia and Nova Scotia are the same place. Around 1629, the English took Quebec City and Scotland took over Port-Royal for a period (both were basically small fortified villages in that era).

Those farming areas in the Annapolis Valley are really quite fertile with a decent climate. If all of the Maritimes were like that, they'd have ended up being way more developed. The fact that the Acadians occupied such fertile land must also be part of what sealed their fate in getting deported. It was some of the nicest land in North America at the time: fertile, mild climate (with limited heatwaves and diseases like malaria and Yellow Fever that even afflicted areas like Philadelphia back then), and easy ocean access. I remember one history book arguing the Acadians were perhaps at one time the richest and most successful peasantry in the early to mid 1700's, measured by factors like their agricultural output, cattle herd sizes, population growth, etc. At times they paid 0 taxes.

New Brunswick only separated from Nova Scotia in 1784. It is sort of like Virginia and West Virginia, although the gap is smaller. This is one reason why New Brunswick has a lower profile historically.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

More generally, if the French know 6 provinces/regions in Canada, it's gonna be "le Québec, "l'Ontario", "l'Acadie", "Terre-Neuve" (no article), "la Nouvelle-Ecosse", and "la Colombie-Britannique". "Le Nouveau-Brunswick" is both a mouthfull and also not well known (it's "l'Acadie" which is known here). PEI, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta are also not well known here. "Le Yukon" is known, but mostly due to 'Uncle Scrooge' comic books and the gold rush (although I have a feeling many French people imagine that Yukon is somewhere in the US).

« Acadie » also is used for « Nouveau-Brunswick » in French Canada. Increasingly so. It excluded the majority of New Brunswickers who are not Acadiens but to most francophones in this country they don’t really exist. It’s really Acadiens that they think about when they think of the province.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

You probably know all this but, as far as this discussion goes, Samuel de Champlain abandoned settling the St-Croix island area (same coast as Saint John), citing the harsher climate, and ended up building Port-Royal in the Annapolis Valley which was the more persistent settlement that evolved into Acadia. That western end of NS was the original Acadian heartland, and Acadia and Nova Scotia are the same place. Around 1629, the English took Quebec City and Scotland took over Port-Royal for a period (both were basically small fortified villages in that era).

Those farming areas in the Annapolis Valley are really quite fertile with a decent climate. If all of the Maritimes were like that, they'd have ended up being way more developed. The fact that the Acadians occupied such fertile land must also be part of what sealed their fate in getting deported. It was some of the nicest land in North America at the time: fertile, mild climate (with limited heatwaves and diseases like malaria and Yellow Fever that even afflicted areas like Philadelphia back then), and easy ocean access. I remember one history book arguing the Acadians were perhaps at one time the richest and most successful peasantry in the early to mid 1700's, measured by factors like their agricultural output, cattle herd sizes, population growth, etc. At times they paid 0 taxes.

New Brunswick only separated from Nova Scotia in 1784. It is sort of like Virginia and West Virginia, although the gap is smaller. This is one reason why New Brunswick has a lower profile historically.

Yes, if we are talking about historic Acadie, but not of contemporary Acadie.

Acadiens today aren't living in the areas of Atlantic Canada that their ancestors (astutely) chose as the best place to establish a colony.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The French (educated ones at least) know Acadie. I think they'll never know New Brunswick (it's neither important nor geographically significant like "Terre-Neuve", which also happens to be next to Saint Pierre and Miquelon, so is well known in France... we even call the fishermen traditionnally fishing in Newfoundland waters "les terre-neuvas", a term that is well known in France, because our history with Terre-Neuve is ancient and predates English colonization).

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terre-neuvas

Newfoundland has quite a bit of visibility around the world, including in France. Not really for the people living there, but for the geography and history.

People from multiple European countries (and even beyond) have fished off Newfoundland's coast for centuries, and so it is part of seafaring lore all over coastal western Europe.

It's also a really big island so it stands out on maps. It's in the top 10 or 20 biggest islands in the world I think.

In addition to the global fishing industry it's also been an important place for transportation, starting with marine transportation (the Titanic sank off Newfoundland) and even aviation. Before the era of long carriage airplanes, Gander in central Newfoundland was an important place for refuelling planes that crossed the Atlantic.

[New Brisavoine]

In an odd way, his election could serve the separatist movement more than Poilièvre's if he turns out to be completely negligent of French and disregarding of Québec. Also, my feeling is sovereignist (or soft-sovereignist) voters who will have voted for the Liberals this time because "we're under attack" will move even more towards sovereignism after the international crisis is over and they feel they've been "used" by this new Liberal administration. So "soft" could turn into "hard" sovereignists, and "neutrals" could turn into "soft" sovereignists. That's my experience of seeing how the electorate can violently swing in another direction after they vote for a party they would never have thought of voting for before, due to exceptional circumstances.

In France for example, those who voted for Chirac in the 2nd round of the 2002 presidential election against Le Pen ("to save democracy"), became even more anti-right-wing, anti-Chirac after just 1 or 2 years because they had somehow been coerced into voting for him in 2002.

[New Brisavoine]

In other news, which might be of interest to you things, the leader of the French Right is proposing to lock the dangerous (only those deemed dangerous, not all of them) illegal immigrants present in France and who are under a deportation order (who usually cannot be deported because their home countries refuse to take them back and France, unlike the US, has never really threatened serious retaliation against these countries), to lock them away in... Saint Pierre and Miquelon.

PS: Ah, I'm sure you will greatly like the reason why he wants to send them to Saint Pierre and Miquelon. Because... "average yearly temperature there is only 5 degrees and they have 146 days of rain and snow", so the illegal immigrants will have a choice either to return to their home countries or be sent to Saint Pierre and Miquelon and its 'lovely' climate. Just imagine what he'd think of the climate in Alberta or Saskatchewan...

https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/immig...oqtf-a-saint-pierre-et-miquelon-20250408

[New Brisavoine]

Ah, the reaction of the MP from Saint Pierre and Miquelon is already here. He says: "We are not second-class French people ["des sous-Français"], we are full fledged French people." "I am surprised that someone who aspires to become president of the French Republic may have such thoughts."

https://la1ere.francetvinfo.fr/saintpier...t-wauquiez-en-une-du-jdnews-1576717.html

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

• Video Link

Mark Carney still speaks better French than the vast majority of Canadians outside of Quebec and Northern New Brunswick.

He definitely speaks French better than Harper did back in 2006.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In other news, which might be of interest to you things, the leader of the French Right is proposing to lock the dangerous (only those deemed dangerous, not all of them) illegal immigrants present in France and who are under a deportation order (who usually cannot be deported because their home countries refuse to take them back and France, unlike the US, has never really threatened serious retaliation against these countries), to lock them away in... Saint Pierre and Miquelon.

What leader? They must have half a dozen leaders currently fighting each other for leadership to the right wing, lol.

I hear that guy, Wauquier would be a nasty fake ass that would betray his own mom just to sit in the Élysée palace.
That's what they say, but I'll admit I don't know much about the guy.
He is suspected to have made that silly suggestion just to make some buzz, because again, the regular Conservative right wing has actually no leader. So contenders would try anything to make the media talk about them.

In any case, SPM is safe. No criminal will ever be deported over there. The French would not agree, and Wauquier must just be a provocative prick indeed.

Edit: Wauquiez, not Wauquier. My bad, I misspelt the name.
I wouldn't vote for that guy anyway, cause he'd be committed to nothing but his personal career.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

• Video Link

Is this video from the 1980s? The 1st guy interviewed seems straight out of the 1980s...

[New Brisavoine]

By the way, if that video was really shot yesterday in Montréal, I cannot imagine a starker contrast with our weather...

This is Normandy today, where I was for professional reasons (20 degrees, not a single cloud as has been the case for the past 3 weeks, Spring blossom everywhere).

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

This is Normandy today, where I was for professional reasons (20 degrees, not a single cloud as has been the case for the past 3 weeks, Spring blossom everywhere).

It's going to rain again next week... Get ready.

It'd been something like 2 years since we hadn't got sunny days for 2 weeks in a row like we just had.
We've been spoiled, eh?

I'm kinda laughing at the environmentalists of the left wing who swore to us we'd suffer from terrible drought.
Right now, groundwater tables are so full all across the country that the soil is struggling to suck all the rain up.

That said, we might face some drought in the coming years. I actually would expect it, cause climate has been more and more unstable for real.
Current state of groundwater:


https://www.brgm.fr/fr/etat-nappes-eau-souterraine-suivi-assure-brgm

Dark blue: bloody full.
Blue: full.
Green: normal, average.
Yellow: moderately low.
Red: badly low.
Gray: no data, no known large tables.

Only Perpignan is at a dangerously low level and I guess the rest of the country has more than enough to supply them with water, for now.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Is this video from the 1980s? The 1st guy interviewed seems straight out of the 1980s...

How so?