Winnipeg | Downtown | Hudson’s Bay Building | Wehwehneh Bahgahkinahgohn | U/C - Page 38

bomberjet · #**741** Posted **Mar 19, 2025, 8:56 PM**

Not everything is a scam you know..

Costs for sure have gone up. The original estimating probably not there. If you go back in this thread I'm pretty sure it was said that budget will surely be blown.

Some clarity on scope and costs would go along way for public support.

WinCitySparky · #**742** Posted **Mar 19, 2025, 8:59 PM**

Makes sense

bomberjet · #**743** Posted **Mar 19, 2025, 9:02 PM**

I'm also not sure if PCL competitively bid this work. Or if they were single sources a la TNSE always does that.

PCL is notorious for driving for the cheapest possible thing in my experience. I can't see them blindly accepting for double triple dipping. But you never know.

That leaves SCO as the source for the scams if there's anything going on.

borkborkbork · #**744** Posted **Mar 19, 2025, 9:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegster

I'm not exactly surprised. The retrofitting of a similar, albeit larger, old department store building (a Dayton's, later a Macy's) in Minneapolis has cost upwards of 375 million USD (and has had it's own issues: https://tcbmag.com/beleaguered-daytons-project-put-into-receivership/), but doesn't seem nearly as ambitious as what's planned for HBC.

The HBC building in Victoria BC building was "$200-300M" back in 2010-15.

https://merrickarch.com/work/bay-site-redevelopment/

At 655,000 square feet for a project that involves restoration and modernization of a complex heritage building... it feels like under $200 psf (the original $130M estimate) was always a laughable number...

pspeid · #**745** Posted **Mar 19, 2025, 10:25 PM**

Of course this still leaves the question of where the extra money will come from? Personally I still think this is such a high-profile project that it's not going to be left high and dry. Governments, even those without extra cash lying around, seem to have ways to find financing. I suppose there might even be overtures made to other First Nations organizations, but again, who has the cash? It might be possible to solicit from any community-minded private entities who would like their name attached to a positive story about "reconciliation in action". It'll be interesting to see how this goes.

OTA in Winnipeg · #**746** Posted **Mar 19, 2025, 10:55 PM**

I'll be surprised if this comes in under 600M.

WinCitySparky · #**747** Posted **Mar 19, 2025, 10:57 PM**

We should start a pool

Labroco · #**748** Posted **Mar 19, 2025, 11:27 PM**

I think they should deal the with the atrium and major work of three floors at this time and complete the rest in a phase 2. This will allow for the project to be completed sooner.

The idea of it dragging on for years is discerning anyway one looks at it. Deer in the headlights!

Biff · #**749** Posted **Mar 20, 2025, 1:08 PM**

IMO this has nothing to do with cost escalation. This was a terribly low budget from the start that everyone knew was not accurate. It was so low it was laughable. Before the project was even announced, most of the people I spoke with about the possibility of redeveloping The Bay thought a $300-$400m budget was what it would take.

I am not really sure where they turn to make up that massive amount.

FactaNV · #**750** Posted **Mar 20, 2025, 1:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biff

IMO this has nothing to do with cost escalation. This was a terribly low budget from the start that everyone knew was not accurate. It was so low it was laughable. Before the project was even announced, most of the people I spoke with about the possibility of redeveloping The Bay thought a $300-$400m budget was what it would take.

I am not really sure where they turn to make up that massive amount.

It's not like SCO doesn't have revenue streams, for example South Beach casino. They'll probably have to find their own moolah.

drew · #**751** Posted **Mar 20, 2025, 2:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biff

IMO this has nothing to do with cost escalation. This was a terribly low budget from the start that everyone knew was not accurate. It was so low it was laughable. Before the project was even announced, most of the people I spoke with about the possibility of redeveloping The Bay thought a $300-$400m budget was what it would take.

I am not really sure where they turn to make up that massive amount.

Who's the architect on this job?

Usually its their job to organize and communicate budget realities to the clients/developers.

bomberjet · #**752** Posted **Mar 20, 2025, 2:26 PM**

Shots fired haha

cllew · #**753** Posted **Mar 20, 2025, 4:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew

Who's the architect on this job?

Usually its their job to organize and communicate budget realities to the clients/developers.

Number 10 architectural is running the project from what I see online.

cllew · #**754** Posted **Mar 20, 2025, 4:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by FactaNV

It's not like SCO doesn't have revenue streams, for example South Beach casino. They'll probably have to find their own moolah.

I think there are 6 indigenous casino's in Manitoba, I don't know if they are all pay into one profit pool that could be tapped or each one would have to contribute a portion of their profits separately.

Some of the northern ones may not want to pay into a SCO project.

Wpg_Guy · #**755** Posted **Mar 20, 2025, 5:12 PM**

The SCO briefly mentions the funding gap in this CBC article:

Quote:

Daniels said the SCO plans to raise the remainder of the funding for the project.

"We will get there, and I guarantee that our team is well-prepared for that," he said.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7487724

trueviking · #**756** Posted **Mar 20, 2025, 8:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew

Who's the architect on this job?

Usually its their job to organize and communicate budget realities to the clients/developers.

Its usually the quantity surveyor or construction manager (or both) that creates budgets....architects draw, they don't budget....they respond to budgets.

The project has been budgeted from day one and the client has always been aware of the costs....they have been working in lock step with CMHC to develop a workable pro-forma.

Developers can announce whatever they want to the public. Don’t believe any numbers you hear, ever. No developer is ever showing their real cards to the media.

wags_in_the_peg · #**757** Posted **Mar 21, 2025, 6:39 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by trueviking

Its usually the quantity surveyor or construction manager (or both) that creates budgets....architects draw, they don't budget....they respond to budgets.

The project has been budgeted from day one and the client has always been aware of the costs....they have been working in lock step with CMHC to develop a workable pro-forma.

Developers can announce whatever they want to the public. Don’t believe any numbers you hear, ever. No developer is ever showing their real cards to the media.

^interesting, i feel theres more to that story!

Biff · #**758** Posted **Apr 11, 2025, 6:29 PM**

From LinkedIn - Southern Chiefs' Organization (SCO)

drew · #**759** Posted **Apr 11, 2025, 6:32 PM**

^ looks like there is a built-up wood framed roof (probably sloped) on top of the flat concrete roof deck.

Seems like we are starting to see at least the north perimeter outline of the atrium.

I assume all those white bags are demo'd material waiting to get craned down?

cllew · #**760** Posted **Apr 11, 2025, 6:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew

^ looks like there is a built-up wood framed roof (probably sloped) on top of the flat concrete roof deck.

Seems like we are starting to see at least the north perimeter outline of the atrium.

I assume all those white bags are demo'd material waiting to get craned down?

Looks like there is a dump truck at the bottom by the crane foundation with some of the bags in its dump box.